In Retrospect (2008 Draft)

[Thinking Skins]

Okoye has battled injuries which has held him back...but with him just turning 21 he has a LONG way to go.

Carriker went from being a nose tackle to an under tackle and hasn't really been able to be successful.

Moss has just been a straight up disappointment.

and no. Vinny is an idiot. He's never been that bad of a drafter when it comes to evaluating draft talent(although I don't even know if he's the lead guy on doing that..), he's just an idiot for signing over the hill vets, giving up picks, and making dumb moves.

Yeah, these are the things I don't know about. Thats why I'm a little hesitant about this stuff.

But, we can look at the results from 2007 and 2008 and see that more of the guys taken high at WR are having an impact than the guys taken at DE/DT.

I wanted to do a similar thing for the OL, but there are NO stats for OL players other than number of games started, and the few people I looked up, seemed to be like Reinhard (not starting many games), but these were second rounders, I don't know how the first rounders did this year.

[Thinking Skins]

vinny is not an idiot. he is good at evaluating talent. he just needs to get over the whole notion that stud lineman can be picked up in the late rounds and stop giving away draft picks.

and one other thing, three of those first rounders outplayed vernon gholston who barely saw the field this year. i remember that there were people last year that said if we drafted him he would solve all our line problems.

I'm willing to buy this one, but the guy I think is more involved in the talent area is Scott Campbell. I don't know who it was (???MRMADD???), but he did a good job once posting what looked like a resume for Scott Campbell and I was impressed. \

It was something like during Vinny's tenure, when Scott was over drafts, we had good drafts; when Scott was over FA, we had good free agency. I'm really hoping that he can be the guy who saves our team.

[Thinking Skins]

scheme matters a lot, maybe those guys aren't in the right scheme?

Also, yes, you have to look back at the 2006 draft to see results. D-line has the longest learning curve. It's why I'm for drafting o-line high, followed by LB. Then draft some project d-linemen in the 3-5 rounds, maybe the 2nd if the talent is there. Osi Umenyiora and Justin Tuck both took a couple seasons to really show up.

People like Julius Peppers or Mario Williams don't come around that often. Otherwise, almost every d-lineman has to be worked in, moreso during their 2nd season so they can start by their 3rd. Plus it should add fire to them to work harder after their rookie season when they know they can be more effective than some older/aging d-lineman on the decline.

I don't really buy that learning curve stuff. I read different articles and each one says that a different position has a different learning curve. I think it relies more on the individual players, the scheme he's being incorporated into, and the stability of the system, amongst other things.

I went back and looked at the D-linemen taken over the past two years to see if there were any guys who we skipped over who we should regret right now. I can go back to 2006, but remember that thats the year we took #52 Rocky McIntosh (given we traded up, but I forget the trade). Interesting thing happened that year. We had no first rounder, and there were no defensive linemen taken until the end of the second round (Darryl Tapp).

Another thing that needs to be looked at in all of this is that a lot of teams draft players at OLB and move them to DE. I didn't look at stuff like that. I just went to the draft history and looked at the guys who were called D-linemen and looked at their stats.

But I agree with the concept of youth. The question I have is whats the difference between a first or second round bust and an UDFA bust? Of corse its much easier to erase an UDFA bust than it is to replace a first day bust.

But I also wonder if the strategy is just to draft DL (or any position) for the sake of drafting DL. There's the lottery chance that this guy will develop into a pro bowl caliber player (even if the scouting department and coaches aren't too high on him initially). And that lottery chance gets higher as we get higher in the draft. But I think that needs to be compared to the rest of the pact to see how much a certain player seperates himself - other than just with stats.

Cause I'm wondering how Montgomery and Golston (particularly Montgomery) compare to the first day picks in the 2006 draft. I know that Golston started games his rookie year, and Montgomery started 16 games in 2007, then they both started games last year.

Other than Williams, Ngata, and Kiwanuka I haven't heard too many names from the 2006 draft, and those guys were gone well before our pick. Maybe I'll do more research on the 2006 draft class's stats.

[#98QBKiller]

Actually, I think its been posted here that we were amongst the teams that blitzed the most often.

But I do think we should consider looking at a blitzinf OLB (to go along with a DT to collapse the pocket).

I'd like to see those stats if available.

The only game I remember blitzing a lot in was the Pittsburgh game, I guess Blache wanted to take advantage of Pittsburgh's pass protection problems?

[TerpSkin]

A couple things I'd like to point out or stress regarding the original post:

First, like you said, DL take time to develop as well, so now we are in the position once again of having to wait if we finally decide to draft a DL high in the draft. Combine that with my opinion (and seemingly the opinion of many of the consistent playoff teams) that (while nice to have a great DL and great WRs) building a great DL should get priority over building a great WR corps, and it is a little upsetting thinking about the path we chose.

Second, just like I defend Thomas and Kelly and Davis (yes, I defend them even though I would have liked to draft DL) because of the situation they were drafted into, you can defend guys like Laws and Campbell (the guys I wanted to draft instead of Thomas and Davis). The talent in front of Laws and Campbell on their respective teams is greater than the talent we have at DL on the Skins. Had they come to the Skins, they would have instantly been more significant parts of our rotation due to the lack of talent in front of them. Moreover, had we drafted Campbell, we would not have traded for Taylor (who didn't do much more than these rookies) and we'd still have our 2nd rounder going into this upcoming season.

[TerpSkin]

Also, I should say that while they may not have lots of sacks and tackles, Campbell and Laws are contributing members (they are actually out on the field fairly often) to DLs that put a lot of pressure on QBs and help force a lot of turnovers. So far, our rookie WRs have not been contributing members to a successful unit... again, I still defend our rookies and am optimistic they will be very successful.

[Thinking Skins]

A couple things I'd like to point out or stress regarding the original post:

First, like you said, DL take time to develop as well, so now we are in the position once again of having to wait if we finally decide to draft a DL high in the draft. Combine that with my opinion (and seemingly the opinion of many of the consistent playoff teams) that (while nice to have a great DL and great WRs) building a great DL should get priority over building a great WR corps, and it is a little upsetting thinking about the path we chose.

Ok, but here we arrive at my question. Should we be drafting what will develop into mediocre (at best) talent along the DL, when we could have an all pro WR combo? And whats the difference between what will be mediocre (at best) talent on day 1 vs what will be mediocre (at best) talent on day 2?

The thing that I think fans are just starting to realize is that we are not just one position away from a SB team. We haven't been for a while. And so if we can sure up enough of these holes on a year to year basis, then we have a chance of being a playoff team on a year to year basis.

Second, just like I defend Thomas and Kelly and Davis (yes, I defend them even though I would have liked to draft DL) because of the situation they were drafted into, you can defend guys like Laws and Campbell (the guys I wanted to draft instead of Thomas and Davis). The talent in front of Laws and Campbell on their respective teams is greater than the talent we have at DL on the Skins. Had they come to the Skins, they would have instantly been more significant parts of our rotation due to the lack of talent in front of them. Moreover, had we drafted Campbell, we would not have traded for Taylor (who didn't do much more than these rookies) and we'd still have our 2nd rounder going into this upcoming season.

Maybe, but still I wonder. I honestly thought that E. James would be the thing to sure up our DE position (boy was I wrong). But its hard to judge the impact of a DT, especially without watching the games. Is he collapsing the pocket? Is he demanding double teams? Is he allowing his defensive ends to get sacks? And are these things the things he's being asked to do?

The main question I have is what seems to be Vinny's philosophy regarding linemen. It seems like other than the physical dominating players who also go all out on every play (and happen to be gone by the top 10 picks in the draft), the draft is full of people who are either guys who just have all the talent in the world, but haven't learned how to apply it yet; or guys who are limited talent-wise, but will go out and give their all.

And it seems that many of these high linemen picks go towards some guys who are limited talent-wise, but will go out and give their all. The twist is that these guys go to big schools like "The Ohio State University" or LSU or USC or Florida, etc and that just makes their stock rise more and more. But is a limited talent work horse from LSU that much better than a limited talent work horse from some small college in the middle of Texas?

This year, it seems we're in a position to get a really DOMINANT DT. I think this is the same spot where the Ravens got Ngata 2 years ago. If we can get somebody like that, then I'd be impressed, but I don't want another Kenard Lang.

[Thinking Skins]

Also, I should say that while they may not have lots of sacks and tackles, Campbell and Laws are contributing members (they are actually out on the field fairly often) to DLs that put a lot of pressure on QBs and help force a lot of turnovers. So far, our rookie WRs have not been contributing members to a successful unit... again, I still defend our rookies and am optimistic they will be very successful.

Well I think that Thomas did a good job increasing his involvement throughout the year. I hope Kelly is more involved next year. But Thomas gives me hope that he can have an impact second year like some other recent big WRs have too.

[TerpSkin]

Should we be drafting what will develop into mediocre (at best) talent along the DL, when we could have an all pro WR combo? And whats the difference between what will be mediocre (at best) talent on day 1 vs what will be mediocre (at best) talent on day 2?

This year, it seems we're in a position to get a really DOMINANT DT. I think this is the same spot where the Ravens got Ngata 2 years ago. If we can get somebody like that, then I'd be impressed, but I don't want another Kenard Lang.

Well, obviously, if you KNOW the WR prospect is going to be all-pro and the DL prospect is going to be mediocre at best then you go with the WR. But that is not, was not, never has been, and never will be the situation. For the most part, these playoff teams (Giants, Eagles, Ravens, Titans, Panthers being the most glaring examples), are drafting DL up high over and over again -- year in and year out. It's not because they scout DL so well, but because they try over and over again.

Why? Because they feel (and I agree) that a dominant DL is probably the most valuable area for a TEAM to be dominant and deep (with the possible exception of QB). That is where you can reduce even the NFL's best offenses to nothing... that is where you can create easy points for your offense (even if it is one of the league's worst offenses)... that is where you can walk away from a game giving fans the false impression that you play with more "swagger" and cliche things like that, when the truth is you just have more talented studs in the most violent area of the game -- the DL.

The reason we haven't drafted DL (and OL for that matter) as much as most teams and certainly not as much as most consistently successful teams is not because of the best player available approach... it is because we (as an organization -- I am not a Vinny basher) have mistakenly not valued DL (and OL) as much as they should be valued and therefore DL (and OL) prospects are farther down our draft boards than they are on other teams' draft boards.

Anybody claiming that we simply have mysteriously always been drafting in a position where linemen aren't the BPA for so many years is ignoring the obvious fact that we have proven to be one of the most (if not THE most) willing teams to move up and down in the draft. When we wanted it, we moved to the appropriate place in the draft to get guys like Cooley, McIntosh, and Jason Campbell... but never for a lineman.

[LeftCoast Skinz FAN]

I will tell you one thing, I like the fact that we drafted two BIG WRs. I am excited to see Thomas and Kelly out there next year making plays. That is exactly what we need at WR, big, tall widereceivers that can push these little DBs around. I have been really impressed the last couple of games of the season seeing Thomas out there getting involved in the offense. I can't wait to see more of it. And let Davis get involved more in the passing game and we will have the most dangerous receiving corps in the NFL:

WR: Moss, Thomas, Randle El, Kelly

TE: Cooley and Davis

I'm excited to see how it works out next year!!!! :point2sky

[fire3fighter4]

This makes no sense. He's pretty good at evaluating talent, but he's an idiot? What over the hill vets has he signed? I assume you're not talking about re-structuring our own players.

The only pick Cerrato gave up I'd like to have back is the 2nd for Taylor and even that looked reasonably smart at the time. If Taylor had stayed healthy and on the field and registered, say, 7-8 sacks, the trade might look pretty good.

Jason Taylor, Bruce smith, Deion Sanders?

How about some of his recent pick ups:

Adam Archuleta

Brandon Llyod

TJ Duckett

[fire3fighter4]

The only pick I really complained about was Tryon. I saw absolutely nothing in this kid, and thought there were better options available....so far he's proved me right. Wasn't that thappy about the Davis pick either, although its still too early to tell how he'll pan out.

[[[ghost]]]

Okoye has battled injuries which has held him back...but with him just turning 21 he has a LONG way to go.

Not necessarily. If his body can only withstand 10 years of the beating that comes with being a lineman in the NFL, he'll just retire at 29.

I'm not gonna lie- I was all about Jamaal Anderson two years ago. I'm glad we took Landry, but I was sure that he'd be like Strahan, and Gaines Adams would've been like Simeon Rice.

[DGREENHULK]

I think Vinny has been a 50/50 guy when it comes to the draft and free agency...and thus we are a 8-8 team. You can't explain away how he has given up the majority of our draft picks over the years in return for aging vets that have limited shelf lives. I do think he made some nice calls with Fred Davis,Devin Thomas and Chris Horton. These 3 are only going to get better and Kareem Moore played well on special teams.....I can somewhat understand his thinking in trading away our future for free agents that could help us win now..if it works and he targets players that fit our system and help us win NOW...but when it blows up in your face and you don't have those future draft picks to recover...well...your screwed.

[Thinking Skins]

I think Vinny has been a 50/50 guy when it comes to the draft and free agency...and thus we are a 8-8 team. You can't explain away how he has given up the majority of our draft picks over the years in return for aging vets that have limited shelf lives. I do think he made some nice calls with Fred Davis,Devin Thomas and Chris Horton. These 3 are only going to get better and Kareem Moore played well on special teams.....In theroy trading away our future for free agents that could help us win now is fine...but when it blows up in your face and you don't have those future draft picks to recover...well...your screwed.

True, but I think where he (and scott campbell) have shined recently (since 2006) is in the late round picks and UDFAs.

I mean we've got

- Golston

- Montgomery

- Alexander

- Blades

- Heyer

- Wilson

- Moore

- Horton

- Colt

Then there are guys like Devin Clark, Rob Jackson, and Buzbee, who are still question marks as to whether they'll be any impact, but the fact that they were able to make the roster should say something.

I don't think that Vinny has a problem in finding talented players at any position. I think his problem is with finding superstars. So I see him much more willing to trade high picks for proven superstars while saving the lower round picks to get the hard working players. I don't agree with it, but thats how I judge his actions lately. And that's kinda why I predict that he'll spend his first focusing on a superstar on the DL (or somewhere else) this year instead of a hard worker on the OL. And if we can't get that superstar, he'll probably trade down.

[DGREENHULK]

True, but I think where he (and scott campbell) have shined recently (since 2006) is in the late round picks and UDFAs.

I mean we've got

- Golston

- Montgomery

- Alexander

- Blades

- Heyer

- Wilson

- Moore

- Horton

- Colt

Then there are guys like Devin Clark, Rob Jackson, and Buzbee, who are still question marks as to whether they'll be any impact, but the fact that they were able to make the roster should say something.

I don't think that Vinny has a problem in finding talented players at any position. I think his problem is with finding superstars. So I see him much more willing to trade high picks for proven superstars while saving the lower round picks to get the hard working players. I don't agree with it, but thats how I judge his actions lately. And that's kinda why I predict that he'll spend his first focusing on a superstar on the DL (or somewhere else) this year instead of a hard worker on the OL. And if we can't get that superstar, he'll probably trade down.

Yup I think there is no question we will NOT be on the clock the the 13th overall selecton come April...I can see Vinny making a deal with someone picking in the late 1st round for our 13th and thier late 1st and late 2nd rounder and that could replace the 2nd he let go to MIA in the J.Taylor deal. But your right Vinny hasn't done a bad job lately...but then again he hasn't found that SUPERSTAR either....lets pray for a stud free agent either on the DL or OL and then come draft day go after the holes still left...

[Skins21!]

I think we had a very good draft last year. It usually takes a season or two for receivers to adjust and make real contributions. Devin Thomas showed a lot of promise near the end of the year as he learned to read defenses. He is a physical specimen. Our offense will be better when he goes to #2 and we put Randle-El in the slot. Zorn couldn't use him that way last year. Fred Davis will be a contributor. Look for a lot of two TE sets next year. That will give safeties nightmares. I just hope Kelly can stay healthy so we can at least use him in the red zone for fade patterns.

[Thinking Skins]

I think we had a very good draft last year. It usually takes a season or two for receivers to adjust and make real contributions. Devin Thomas showed a lot of promise near the end of the year as he learned to read defenses. He is a physical specimen. Our offense will be better when he goes to #2 and we put Randle-El in the slot. Zorn couldn't use him that way last year. Fred Davis will be a contributor. Look for a lot of two TE sets next year. That will give safeties nightmares. I just hope Kelly can stay healthy so we can at least use him in the red zone for fade patterns.

I've been ridiculed for making similar statements last year. This year I think I'm going to wait at least until minicamp before I start making these predictions.

[fire3fighter4]

];6026259']Not necessarily. If his body can only withstand 10 years of the beating that comes with being a lineman in the NFL' date=' he'll just retire at 29.

I'm not gonna lie- I was all about Jamaal Anderson two years ago. I'm glad we took Landry, but I was sure that he'd be like Strahan, and Gaines Adams would've been like Simeon Rice.[/quote']

the body heals its self a lot better when you're young...He should be able to go till his early 30's like most linemen.

[Stevo]

Jones was a guy who had a good year, but he's playing on a line with Haynesworth.

Jason Jones had 3.5 sacks and 3 forced fumbles in one of the two games that Haynesworth was out for. That argument does not hold water for him.

I think he is going to be a really good player and wish we would have taken him in the second.

[Shilsu]

I don't get it...

We're not allowed to judge our rookies yet... But we can judge the rest of the draft, despite the fact that almost all of them made bigger contributions than Fred Davis and Malcolm Kelly, and several of them, Devin Thomas?

Also, Jason Jones fills in for Haynesworth... He doesn't play with him...

[Thinking Skins]

Jason Jones had 3.5 sacks and 3 forced fumbles in one of the two games that Haynesworth was out for. That argument does not hold water for him.

I think he is going to be a really good player and wish we would have taken him in the second.

cool. I hadn't checked the game logs. But I hadn't heard too much about him being on people's radar anyway. But he does look like the best guy we passed on so far.

[Thinking Skins]

I don't get it...

We're not allowed to judge our rookies yet... But we can judge the rest of the draft, despite the fact that almost all of them made bigger contributions than Fred Davis and Malcolm Kelly, and several of them, Devin Thomas?

Also, Jason Jones fills in for Haynesworth... He doesn't play with him...

Well, Its just a matter of looking back and trying to ask a question of how much better or worse off we'd be if we had drafted these players. A lot of these guys haven't seen too much playing time, while others (particularly Jones) looked pretty good this year.

I don't want to get to the point where we're calling picks busts or great, or even to the point where we're saying that certain picks are better than another. I just wanted to look at the rookie years of some of the guys we were talking about getting pre-draft and how they did after their rookie year.

I could also include other WRs like Limas Sweed, but his performance is on par with Kelly and Davis. Some of the rookie sensations at WR would be nice guys to compare to Thomas, Davis and Kelly, but in reality though we'd just be talking the same thing as last year....about our WRs being too small and not having a "real number 1", etc.

But this is not to pass judgement, just a chance to look back.

[Shilsu]

cool. I hadn't checked the game logs. But I hadn't heard too much about him being on people's radar anyway. But he does look like the best guy we passed on so far.

Come on man... He's been mentioned several times several months ago... Every single time the Vinny-defenders kept parroting, "I BET NO ONE CAN NAME AN OFFENSIVE OR DEFENSIVE LINEMAN WORTH TAKING AT OUR SPOT".

[Thinking Skins]

Come on man... He's been mentioned several times several months ago... Every single time the Vinny-defenders kept parroting, "I BET NO ONE CAN NAME AN OFFENSIVE OR DEFENSIVE LINEMAN WORTH TAKING AT OUR SPOT".

haha, i don't normally read those posts. But I agree he's the top performing guy we passed on so far. Hopefully our guys come to form.