Zorn Undermined His Own Credibility

[GaryGreenMonk]

I think Zorn is a terrible coach. (right now).. could he be better with experience? maybe... but could take years.

right now.. he's awful.

I think the early part of the season was all "lay over" from what Gibbs built and had going. Combined with some mystery of a new coach and offense.

Once we entered the part of the season when Gibbs excels at motivating, we fell apart.

That falls directly on the head of the HC. Directly square in the middle.

[TheismannQuote]

I just don't understand that constant comparison of Zorn to Gibbs. Guess what. He's not a HOF Coach. The redskins were not the New era Patriots durings Gibbs2. Sure, there were some high points. The truth is, we were 9-7 last year and 5-11 the year before. There were HUGE problems under Gibbs2, as well. Alot of people have their rose colored glasses on when they are looking in to the past. Do you remember arguing about how terrible our offense was? How we couldn't score td's in the redzone? How last year it wasn't until, what, week 8 before a receiver caught a Td, and that was James Thrash? Did we have a lackluster pass rush for years, which was blamed on Gregg williams scheme to have coverage sacks? Didn't our "one man army" clinton portis go down, to which betts tallied up 1000 yards in how many games?

Im Just saying...this isn't a team that has fought for super bowl contention every year under Gibbs2. We are a .500 team. Mediocre, at best. Zorn is playing with somebody else's cards with a layover staff, to boot. He's done some questionable things...but he's learning on the job, following the Messiah of Redskin's Nation.

[JohnnyK]

I think it's interesting that you all are taking Zorn's press conference comments at face value. I think it's all a load of bull. I think the guy's an egomaniac. He never took the blame for anything for the first 15 weeks, but now suddenly he feels like the worst coach in the world? I don't buy it. He started reading the press that criticized him for never shouldering any responsibility for the losses, and decided to overcompensate.

That's how I'm reading into it anyway.

[GaryGreenMonk]

I just don't understand that constant comparison of Zorn to Gibbs. Guess what. He's not a HOF Coach. The redskins were not the New era Patriots durings Gibbs2. Sure, there were some high points. The truth is, we were 9-7 last year and 5-11 the year before. .

but it displayed improvement did it not? slow... but improvement...

do you see improvement now? or regression?

that is the mark of a coach.

[33]

I just don't understand that constant comparison of Zorn to Gibbs. Guess what. He's not a HOF Coach. The redskins were not the New era Patriots durings Gibbs2. Sure, there were some high points. The truth is, we were 9-7 last year and 5-11 the year before. There were HUGE problems under Gibbs2, as well. Alot of people have their rose colored glasses on when they are looking in to the past. Do you remember arguing about how terrible our offense was? How we couldn't score td's in the redzone? How last year it wasn't until, what, week 8 before a receiver caught a Td, and that was James Thrash? Did we have a lackluster pass rush for years, which was blamed on Gregg williams scheme to have coverage sacks? Didn't our "one man army" clinton portis go down, to which betts tallied up 1000 yards in how many games?

My problem isn't with poor play calling, or execution per se. That part I can understand. Although the offense is atrocious.

My problem is with a coach who seems to have lost his players halfway through his first season. It's not often a coach loses the locker room in their first season. There seems to be a lack of direction, communication and motivation. Sadly, this isn't all speculative as enough reports have surfaced for us to surmise that the Zorn has been tuned out. There have been enough situations where the media asked Zorn about a situation with a player and he wasn't even aware the player was unhappy or confused in the first place. Seems to me he lost the locker room because he never had a pulse on it to begin with. (that last part is speculative)

I think Zorn is a terrible coach. (right now).. could he be better with experience? maybe... but could take years.

right now.. he's awful.

I think the early part of the season was all "lay over" from what Gibbs built and had going. Combined with some mystery of a new coach and offense.

Once we entered the part of the season when Gibbs excels at motivating, we fell apart.

That falls directly on the head of the HC. Directly square in the middle.

I wish I could add something more to this but the truth is I agree with it so wholeheartedly I don't think there is anything to add.

[pocampo]

My problem isn't with poor play calling, or execution per se. That part I can understand. Although the offense is atrocious.

My problem is with a coach who seems to have lost his players halfway through his first season. It's not often a coach loses the locker room in their first season. There seems to be a lack of direction, communication and motivation. Sadly, this isn't all speculative as enough reports have surfaced for us to surmise that the Zorn has been tuned out. There have been enough situations where the media asked Zorn about a situation with a player and he wasn't even aware the player was unhappy or confused in the first place. Seems to me he lost the locker room because he never had a pulse on it to begin with. (that last part is speculative)

33 Help me with this I've been saying play calling since Aug http://www.extremeskins.com/showthread.php?t=255927 But for the life of me. Why would Zorn say the offense is doing fine!!! can you help me understand that 33 ?? This goes strait to his credibility!!

[GaryGreenMonk]

33 Help me with this I've been saying play calling since Aug http://www.extremeskins.com/showthread.php?t=255927 But for the life of me. Why would Zorn say the offense is doing fine!!! can you help me understand that 33 ?? This goes strait to his credibility!!

he would say that because he is an egomaniac and refuses to put any blame on himself.

doing so would come directly back to his playcalling and coaching as far as motivating the team to succeed and preparing them for each challenge.

NOTE that when he did say something... he did not say "This falls on me, I could have done a lot of things better. I let the team down and I will do my best to improve and earn the respect of the fans and organization"

what he did say.... "I feel like the worst coach in America." insinuating in a freudian slip type of attitude that he feels that way but knows he isn't. And it's still not his fault.

[33]

33 Help me with this I've been saying play calling since Aug http://www.extremeskins.com/showthread.php?t=255927 But for the life of me. Why would Zorn say the offense is doing fine!!! can you help me understand that 33 ?? This goes strait to his credibility!!

Ha. I didn't mean to say I think his play calling is okay. I'm just more worried about his leadership skills.

I agree, that his credibility is a bit damaged by not really admitting that there are problems with the scheme and play calling. He took some blame, but later when asked what he would change he failed to find anything. Personally, I think it's a little bit of arrogance, a little bit of steadiness, and a little bit of being in over his head.

[TheismannQuote]

I just don't know what to think, as a fan. I try not to defend Zorn because this season has taken such a 180, it's almost comical. It seems like yesterday, everybody's sig was "Hip Hip Hooray."

I just want stability, growth, something to look forward to in the future. I think the landscape of the NFC East is going to change dramatically, if not next year, then very soon. Spagnoulo will probably test the market. A loss tonight for the Cowboys will give Wade his walking papers. Even Reid plays for his job every season in Philadephia.

I liked the stability that we had for the four years with Gibbs. If we head in a completely different direction next year....I can't even think about what this site will look like through a rebuilding period.

I just don't even know what to think.

[GSF]

What in the world are you talking about Bulldog? It's not like Zorn was sobbing or banging his fists on the podium. I think you're reaching for some deep analysis that just isn't there. Zorn is a first year coach, what did you expect, him to be Joe Gibbs in his first season?

I don't have a single problem with Zorn so far. I think he's been honest and professional, and I think when you listen to what he says at these press conferences, he's been right on the money for the most part. When he said the players weren't executing...guess what, they weren't. Has Zorn made some mistakes? Sure, all coaches do, especially first year coaches. It's silly to suggest the guy can't relate to his playes when you think about how long he played, and the struggles he experienced as a player. He knows how these guys feel.

Zorn is going to be a good coach for us. He needs some time, and he needs some horses on the lines. Stop over-analyzing.

[pocampo]

Ha. I didn't mean to say I think his play calling is okay. I'm just more worried about his leadership skills.

I agree, that his credibility is a bit damaged by not really admitting that there are problems with the scheme and play calling. He took some blame, but later when asked what he would change he failed to find anything. Personally, I think it's a little bit of arrogance, a little bit of steadiness, and a little bit of being in over his head.

Zorn said the offense is doing fine we just need to score more points!! What concerns me if you guys are half right, just half. Now take what Riggo says. That he is a smart ass. Hope he doesn't get punched out!!!

[GaryGreenMonk]

I don't have a single problem with Zorn so far..

I've got a zillion problems with Zorn.

1) play calling... awful

2) general motivation of players/ respect of players

3) accepting responsibility for poor performance (which feeds into #2)

4) lack of preperation... our scoring in the 1st Quarter is awful.. which is really when he has his main scripted offense planned

5) open questioning of players. Maybe they deserve it.. for sure. but this is like being at a sub shop and suddenly the person making your sub gets chewed out by the manager. You feel awkward.. the employee making your sub feels horrible. Not good management. period. These are closed door matters.

6) Lack of authority. Portis mouthed off.... what did you do... you treated him like a star salesman. Or at least how a terrible manager would respond to a star salesman telling him he sucked in front of everyone.

7) Emotion on the sideline. ... yes this at first was good to see compared to Gibbs... "hey.. this coach cares..." but think about it. He should keep a cool head. How many good coaches do you see freak out on the sideline?... you see Dungy freak out?... you see Tomlin freak out? ... you see Holmgren freak out? you see Coughlin freak out?... no. Never see them freak out. You see them get excited when good things happen... then they get emotional. But never see them freak out and pretend to throw a clipboard.

I won't go on... but there is a lot.

He has a long way to go... and much of it is unfortunately very personal and difficult things to change. He is not ready. And is NOT a good coach at the moment.

To stick with him for the sake of consistancy is folly.

[Peregrine]

Its one thing when you have ups and downs. Its another when your team plays like the WORST team in football for 8 straight weeks.

He didnt undermine his credibility, that was undermined when he, as a rookie head coach, refused to accept any responsibility for the teams problems, and ignored them for 8 weeks.

[illone]

If I played for Zorn I'd be hurt if he said I wasn't getting it done, EVEN IF I WASN'T.

A true leader backs his guys up even if they fail, just like Gibbs did, which is why players never gave up on him.

Not that Zorn should be like Gibbs, but a true leader would;).

Zorn is a competitive guy who obviously wants to win, he just doesn't know how to get the most from his guys yet. Countless times I've heard NFL players and Gms make comments to the point that in the NFL you are managing personalities. All these guys make big money and have even bigger egos. If you make moves AGAINST those emotions it's a quick way for NFL players to lose respect for you, regardless of your track record, of which Zorn has little.

Zorn knows today's NFL quite well, and I think his scheme is a winner. But if he doesn't learn how to manage personalities in the locker room things won't get better in Washington under his care.

[aREDSKIN]

I

I personally think Jim Zorn isn't cut out to be a head coach. His good start just masked his true weaknesses that has become evident as the season went along. I think the Skins peaked under Jim Zorn at 6-2 and that will be the highlight of Jim's career; whether he comes back or not.

I agree.

[GSF]

I've got a zillion problems with Zorn.

1) play calling... awful

2) general motivation of players/ respect of players

3) accepting responsibility for poor performance (which feeds into #2)

4) lack of preperation... our scoring in the 1st Quarter is awful.. which is really when he has his main scripted offense planned

5) open questioning of players. Maybe they deserve it.. for sure. but this is like being at a sub shop and suddenly the person making your sub gets chewed out by the manager. You feel awkward.. the employee making your sub feels horrible. Not good management. period. These are closed door matters.

6) Lack of authority. Portis mouthed off.... what did you do... you treated him like a star salesman. Or at least how a terrible manager would respond to a star salesman telling him he sucked in front of everyone.

7) Emotion on the sideline. ... yes this at first was good to see compared to Gibbs... "hey.. this coach cares..." but think about it. He should keep a cool head. How many good coaches do you see freak out on the sideline?... you see Dungy freak out?... you see Tomlin freak out? ... you see Holmgren freak out? you see Coughlin freak out?... no. Never see them freak out. You see them get excited when good things happen... then they get emotional. But never see them freak out and pretend to throw a clipboard.

I won't go on... but there is a lot.

He has a long way to go... and much of it is unfortunately very personal and difficult things to change. He is not ready. And is NOT a good coach at the moment.

To stick with him for the sake of consistancy is folly.

Oh please with your rediculous list.

1. Play calling is extemely limited when you know you can't protect your QB.

2. You have no idea how much motivation or respect Zorn has or has not generated. Maybe they're just flat b/c they know they're screwed on the lines.

3. Zorn has accepted responsibility, and besides who cares. It has zero to do with what happens on the field.

4. See number 1.

5. Zorn has continually praised the players' effort, and some of these players deserve to be questioned.

6. Gimme a break. Portis has been mouthing off his whole career, and you have no idea of how Zorn handled it behind closed doors.

7. Emotion on the sideline? Are you freakin' serious?

What is folly is to hire a guy like Zorn based on potential, and then fire him after 1 season when he obviously doesn't have the players he needs and doesn't run the table. Zorn isn't the guy who traded all of our draft picks away. He isn't the guy who completely neglected the lines. Freakin' Vince Lombardy himself would have gone 8-8 with this roster. Just look what happened with HOF coach Joe Gibbs.

You guys bashing Zorn are just frustrated with how bad the team is right now and looking to blame someone. Sure Zorn needs to improve, but there is plenty of blame to go around with this team. The key now is to look forward and figure out how to fix it long term. The good news is that we do have some nice young talent at the skill positions and in the secondary. We mostly just need a serious upgrade on the lines. I think Zorn has the intelligence, experience, and savvy to be a very good coach. I want to see what he can do with some time and some new talent. Hopefully that will happen.

[33]

How are his players worse than the players we had last year?

Did you expect a poor season, GSF? FWIW, I've been anti-Zorn since July, and was publically so through our winning streak. Of course I'm going to get louder as he loses.

The guy appears to me to be someone who thinks schemes are what win in the NFL. He wanted to be an OC so bad, he couldn't delegate power when he ended up being a HC. He obviously thought he was the most qualified for the job. I hope I'm wrong.

[GaryGreenMonk]

Oh please with your rediculous list.

1. Play calling is extemely limited when you know you can't protect your QB.

2. You have no idea how much motivation or respect Zorn has or has not generated. Maybe they're just flat b/c they know they're screwed on the lines.

3. Zorn has accepted responsibility, and besides who cares. It has zero to do with what happens on the field.

4. See number 1.

5. Zorn has continually praised the players' effort, and some of these players deserve to be questioned.

6. Gimme a break. Portis has been mouthing off his whole career, and you have no idea of how Zorn handled it behind closed doors.

7. Emotion on the sideline? Are you freakin' serious?

What is folly is to hire a guy like Zorn based on potential, and then fire him after 1 season when he obviously doesn't have the players he needs and doesn't run the table. Zorn isn't the guy who traded all of our draft picks away. He isn't the guy who completely neglected the lines. Freakin' Vince Lombardy himself would have gone 8-8 with this roster. Just look what happened with HOF coach Joe Gibbs.

You guys bashing Zorn are just frustrated with how bad the team is right now and looking to blame someone. Sure Zorn needs to improve, but there is plenty of blame to go around with this team. The key now is to look forward and figure out how to fix it long term. The good news is that we do have some nice young talent at the skill positions and in the secondary. We mostly just need a serious upgrade on the lines. I think Zorn has the intelligence, experience, and savvy to be a very good coach. I want to see what he can do with some time and some new talent. Hopefully that will happen.

I'll let anyone else that reads these 2 posts respond.

[LoudMouth12thMan]

For what he was handed in this piece of **** of a franchise and team, I'd say he's stayed fairly "medium" this year. I'm a fan but I'm glad I'm not as delusional as some of you are. Rah rah let's support the team, get rid of Vinny and Zorn, and Portis is the man. :doh: Give me a break. I know it's the season for Santa Claus, but let's not make everything a fantasy . This team sucks currently, and it has for a while. Zorn is trying his best and doing a pretty damn good job with the hand he's been dealt. Just my take on it, but everyone's entitled obviously.

I'm going to enjoy my $8 beers tomorrow with my wife next to me and hope that this team starts to show signs of turning the corner. Win or lose, I'll still cheer for 'em, but don't blame a first year coach for the lack of talent that this franchise has had for over a decade under this owner.

[bikie]

I'm not a huge zorn supporter but we just can't expect anything from this team with the attitude of hiring inexperienced people and not giving them the proper time to learn how to be a HC and the authority to prevent players from questioning who is really in charge...

I have a lot of problems with the way zorn handled his first season, but what I saw this season was a coach empowered to make the playcalls but little else... if we fire him and get another HC with anything less than a history of winning NFL games as a HC, it's gonna be rinse, lose and repeat...

[isle-hawg]

Zorn knows today's NFL quite well, and I think his scheme is a winner. But if he doesn't learn how to manage personalities in the locker room things won't get better in Washington under his care.

You make good points. Zorn may be like another Norv (great OC lousy HC). The teams lack of scoring though makes me wonder WTF is going on with the O that he was first hired on to fix (other than the super obvious our OL can't pass block).

[jtyler42]

its just mind boggling how the expectations for this season were raised...first it was 4-12 now its 12-4...I always saw this team being 8-8, 9-7...the O-line needs to be overhauled.

EXACTLY!!!

How anyone could honestly have looked at this team and our schedule and thought we would be 12-4 or 11-5 is crazy. At the best this is a 9-7 to 7-9 team and always has been. Even w/a HoF HC we had to struggle to just get to 9-7...

I think we should give Zorn/JC another year, hire a veteran WC OC, and allow this team to grow...

[SkinsSyco4Life]

A message to Jim Zorn and my fellow Skins fans.

"You Learn"

I recommend getting your heart trampled on to anyone

I recommend walking around naked in your living room

Swallow it down (what a jagged little pill)

It feels so good (swimming in your stomach)

Wait until the dust settles

You live you learn

You love you learn

You cry you learn

You lose you learn

You bleed you learn

You scream you learn

I recommend biting off more then you can chew to anyone

I certainly do

I recommend sticking your foot in your mouth at any time

Feel free

Throw it down (the caution blocks you from the wind)

Hold it up (to the rays)

You wait and see when the smoke clears

You live you learn

You love you learn

You cry you learn

You lose you learn

You bleed you learn

You scream you learn

Wear it out (the way a three-year-old would do)

Melt it down (you're gonna have to eventually anyway)

The fire trucks are coming up around the bend

You live you learn

You love you learn

You cry you learn

You lose you learn

You bleed you learn

You scream you learn

You grieve you learn

You choke you learn

You laugh you learn

You choose you learn

You pray you learn

You ask you learn

You live you learn

Lyrics by Alanis Morrisette

[TheismannQuote]

:yes:You did just quote Alanis Morrisette...

I have this image in my head of the 2008 highlight reel with that song playing. Epic. Hahah...

[SkinsSyco4Life]

:yes:You did just quote Alanis Morrisette...

I have this image in my head of the 2008 highlight reel with that song playing. Epic. Hahah...