What You Are Seeing Is In Fact The Truth

[Chief skin]

And this is the continuing saga of "As the Redskins burn". Same old **** year in and year out since Dan Snyder purchased this once proud franchise.

This team is a mere shadow of it's former self and the Circus will continue for as long as Dan Snyder keeps his good friend Vinnie on the payroll and keeps ....hell, probably as long as he is the owner of this team. It's been over 10 years and can anybody here honestly say that this team is doing much better now than when Danny first bought it?

:notworthy:notworthy:notworthy:applause::applause::applause: I feel the same way THROUGHLY DISGUSTED with Richie Rich and his BEATCH VINNY. This Snyder era has produced a wining percentage of 48 HELLUVA JOB DANNY. This once proud successful franchise has been brough to its knees by these 2 arseholes. Then to add insult to injury a significant percentage of the fan base think Danny and vinny are fine, great ownership. WAKE UP PEOPLE Danny is a STUBBORN ARROGANT LOSER and we are doomed to this BS

[33]

Good Stuff

I agree with all except #2

<Zorn's arrogant streak>

If Lombardi was under today's media umbrella

would he be arrogant?

Try overbearing or unbearable.

It shows you what a poker player Coach Joe was.

As for the other points...

so true.

I think we just have to hitch our wagon to Coach Z.

He's played the game.

Zorn after every loss says the scheme is sound and that the play-calls are correct and then points to the players. No team could withstand that for the long term. Just watch his PC's everyday.

After one game Zorn actually said he had great play-calls that he didn't get to use because there were so many 3 and outs. He has a bit of a habit of patting himself on the back and kicking the players in the behind at the same time.

I'm hoping he's learned better from this recent dustup. So far he sounds like he may have.

The people that were angry that Gibbs wouldn't publicly hold players accountable got exactly what they asked for with not much sense of moderation.

[dcnativenerd]

Well, we must remember, this team sucked before Danny took control, too.

But, you're right, Bulldog. There's a big void in the leadership position that needs to be addressed now.

[TheLongshot]

3. There is a leadership vacuum. Where are the positive voices? Veterans that are going to hold the other players accountable for their effort over the last 3 weeks to ensure this team finishes 10-6 and forces other teams to win to make the playoffs and knock the Skins out?

Seems to me that other than London Fletcher nobody else is stepping up.

At least publicly. I'm sure there are others who have stepped up.

4. The concentration of high draft picks in 2008 on one position, pass catcher, and the retarded development of ALL three of the players chosen has taken a big toll on the offense and stunted its development. The Redskins chose NOT to sign a veteran WCO wide receiver, which I thought was a mistake, because they evidently belived Kelly and the others would come along and become contributors. Now we have no #3 receiver. James Thrash is 34 years old and in his last NFL season. Thomas is still not ready. Kelly is still not ready. And a case can be made that Randle El is another player that is a stretch in his current position as the #2 receiver.

And who would you have liked to have signed? Hackett? He's been hurt and a non-factor. Bryant Johnson? He's got less yards than ARE.

The team didn't like any of the FA out there, so they looked to see if they could trade for a receiver. No one bit. So, they were left with drafting receivers. While the fans love it, to do risk fighting the learning curve, and that has been steeper than expected.

5. The inability of veterans like Marcus Washington, Shawn Springs, Jon Jansen, Cornelius Griffin, etc. to be able to play a 16 game schedule is indeed a sign that significant changes are on the horizon, whether the club is willing to admit it or not. This club is likely to take a step BACK in 2009 as younger players are integrated into a number of these positions.

Less of a factor than you think. For some of those positions, we have replacements which have been filling in and doing at least a decent job.

6. The trade of our #2, #6 and #7 picks in 2009 all but guarantees that we will again have to go into free agency and spend dollars to fill some holes as the team has had to do in the past. I thought based on Cerrato's comments in 2008 that the Redskins were not going to trade valuable picks in the future if it could be avoided?

What made you think that? While everyone proclaimed that the FO was turning over a new leaf, I've been saying the whole time that this FO was still going to be aggressive in getting players that they felt that they needed for the success of this team. Course, I always thought the argument that the FO "disdained the draft" was bunk as well. Picks can be spent on more than just rookies.

[fansince62]

I think it probably has a lot more to do with the dichotomy between Zorn and Gibbs styles. There is a big distance to span in regards to their handling of players to the point that they might in fact be opposites. Especially now that we're hearing Clinton wasn't the only who was feeling what he was saying.

one question then....if you listen to Blache in post-game interviews he has been putting it squarely on the players.....I don't know howmany times he has said it: they aren't executing what has been designed and directed correctly. but he recieves no heat at all. why is that? if you respond because the defense is not where the deepest problems lie...that may be so...but that's not what is at issue - coaches attributing defeat to the players.

[fansince62]

At least publicly. I'm sure there are others who have stepped up.

And who would you have liked to have signed? Hackett? He's been hurt and a non-factor. Bryant Johnson? He's got less yards than ARE.

The team didn't like any of the FA out there, so they looked to see if they could trade for a receiver. No one bit. So, they were left with drafting receivers. While the fans love it, to do risk fighting the learning curve, and that has been steeper than expected.

Less of a factor than you think. For some of those positions, we have replacements which have been filling in and doing at least a decent job.

What made you think that? While everyone proclaimed that the FO was turning over a new leaf, I've been saying the whole time that this FO was still going to be aggressive in getting players that they felt that they needed for the success of this team. Course, I always thought the argument that the FO "disdained the draft" was bunk as well. Picks can be spent on more than just rookies.

yes.....but does "success of this team" always have to translate to a myopic point-of-view?

[Oldfan]

one question then....if you listen to Blache in post-game interviews he has been putting it squarely on the players.....I don't know howmany times he has said it: they aren't executing what has been designed and directed correctly. but he recieves no heat at all. why is that? if you respond because the defense is not where the deepest problems lie...that may be so...but that's not what is at issue - coaches attributing defeat to the players.

Zorn is going to tell us what he thinks regardless of whether the player likes it or not. Maybe Blache is the same way. Maybe they're right.

I don't really care whether the players like it or not. It's not going to make a bit of difference in their performance if they're happy.

[33]

one question then....if you listen to Blache in post-game interviews he has been putting it squarely on the players.....I don't know howmany times he has said it: they aren't executing what has been designed and directed correctly. but he recieves no heat at all. why is that? if you respond because the defense is not where the deepest problems lie...that may be so...but that's not what is at issue - coaches attributing defeat to the players.

Blache hasn't been afraid to find fault in his schemes after a loss. He holds his players accountable, but he holds himself as well.

The issue with Zorn was after a loss he would often say the schemes are sound, and sometimes also say the play-calling was good. That's not just criticizing the players. As I said that's patting yourself on the back and throwing the players under a bus all at the same time.

CP mentioned accountability, which was not surprising since he has said that one of the things he learned from Gibbs was accountability. With Gibbs the players always fought their guts out and the coaches didn't put the players in the right position. I think there is a bit of culture shock between the two styles.

The interesting thing is Holmgren can switch between the two styles as well as straddle the middle. Zorn seems to have identified most with hard nosed version of Holmgren.

[TheLongshot]

yes.....but does "success of this team" always have to translate to a myopic point-of-view?

Because fans, in general, are myopic. Sure, in the offseason plenty of fans preach patience and building through the draft, but when the chips are down we get what we got here right now where a lot of fans are upset that we are not winning now, kicking ass and going to Superbowls RIGHT NOW.

At his heart, Snyder is a fan. Being a fan, he also wants to win ASAP. That's why he chases after it.

While experience has taught him to let the football people do their jobs, he has no problem enabling them to be aggressive, sign players to big contracts and to trade for whomever they want. That is, in general, a good thing. Course, you also need to be smart when you do that, and we haven't always been.

[33]

Zorn is going to tell us what he thinks regardless of whether the player likes it or not. Maybe Blache is the same way. Maybe they're right.

I don't really care whether the players like it or not. It's not going to make a bit of difference in their performance if they're happy.

I don't think this is about players being happy or not. This is about having the respect of your locker-room.

The days of Lombardi as you have brought up are long gone. Parcells wore on the Cowboys after 3 years. A good coach should be able to keep his locker-room through motivation and respect. This isn't grade school, it's a business.

[Oldfan]

CP mentioned accountability, which was not surprising since he has said that one of the things he learned from Gibbs was accountability.

Portis learned nothing from Gibbs about being accountable. He's a warrior on the field and me-first jerk off it.

[chipwhich]

I think the Taylor comment *might* be a little harsh. Put the guy in his natural position and see how he does then. Switching sides has to be a consideration.

[NoVaSkins21]

The OP is dead on with all of his points especially #6. They're going to throw big dollars at Julius Peppers and Albert Hanyesworth if both are available just to avoid addressing the DL in the draft.

[TheLongshot]

I think there is a bit of culture shock between the two styles.

That is what I think is happening. The players have gotten used to Gibbs' self-flagellating style and Zorn's frankness is probably rather off-putting in comparison. That's why some players feel like he's throwing them under the bus. I don't think that was the intention of Zorn, and I think that is what he made clear earlier today.

[Oldfan]

While experience has taught him to let the football people do their jobs, he has no problem enabling them to be aggressive, sign players to big contracts and to trade for whomever they want. That is, in general, a good thing. Course, you also need to be smart when you do that, and we haven't always been.

No, it's not a good thing and there's no way it can be done intelligently. The salary cap acts as a budget. When you spend on a budget the wise thing is to try to make every transaction a bargain in order to stretch the money as far as it will go.

In the NFL, bargain hunting allows a team to build a deep roster while allowing for some errors in judgment.

[Oldfan]

I don't think this is about players being happy or not. This is about having the respect of your locker-room.

The days of Lombardi as you have brought up are long gone. Parcells wore on the Cowboys after 3 years. A good coach should be able to keep his locker-room through motivation and respect. This isn't grade school, it's a business.

Lombardi's way is exactly what is needed today.

Screw motivation and respect. I coach. You play. That's what you get paid big bucks for. That's all the motivation you should need.

[33]

That is what I think is happening. The players have gotten used to Gibbs' self-flagellating style and Zorn's frankness is probably rather off-putting in comparison. That's why some players feel like he's throwing them under the bus. I don't think that was the intention of Zorn, and I think that is what he made clear earlier today.

I agree mostly that his intention was not to throw the players under the bus, however I don't think his leadership or awareness has been high enough to be as arrogant as he has been.

I think you can chalk it up to him being a rookie coach as well as having no experience with a franchise as high profile as the Redskins. Ideally he's been humbled from this latest experience. I have my doubts, but luckily my doubts have no bearing on reality.

[TheLongshot]

No, it's not a good thing and there's no way it can be done intelligently. The salary cap acts as a budget. When you spend on a budget the wise thing is to try to make every transaction a bargain in order to stretch the money as far as it will go.

In the NFL, bargain hunting allows a team to build a deep roster while allowing for some errors in judgment.

Then I guess there are a lot of stupid front offices then. There are few teams out there that don't chase after big name FAs. The Skins aren't the only ones who lay out big bucks to players out there, as shown the past couple of years.

I don't agree with you that every deal be a bargain, because true bargains are rare and they don't last too long when they do come around. What is important is that each deal be money well spent, because an error can be costly.

[33]

Lombardi's way is exactly what is needed today.

Screw motivation and respect. I coach. You play. That's what you get paid big bucks for. That's all the motivation you should need.

I think we all wish players were held accountable for their jobs. However, somewhere along the line as the paychecks grew the accountability seemed to depreciate, which is probably just human nature.

Take a look at Coughlin and the transformation he needed to go through in order to bring the best out of his players. I'm sure you're aware that Lombardi was great because he could motivate and garner respect from his players. It's obvious in the way they talk about him to this day. They had some fear, but mostly they respected the man. Even the Hornung situation could be equated to lousy things today's players do and he had Lombardi as a coach.

[Oldfan]

Then I guess there are a lot of stupid front offices then. There are few teams out there that don't chase after big name FAs. The Skins aren't the only ones who lay out big bucks to players out there, as shown the past couple of years.

Name one perennial winner with a history of signing big name free agents.

I don't agree with you that every deal be a bargain, because true bargains are rare and they don't last too long when they do come around. What is important is that each deal be money well spent, because an error can be costly.

No bargains are not rare. Except for the top ten picks, every player in the draft, and every UDFA, who contributes is a bargain -- and when they re-up it is at below free market rates.

Bargains are rare in free agency because it's an open market. It's basic economics.

[TheLongshot]

I agree mostly that his intention was not to throw the players under the bus, however I don't think his leadership or awareness has been high enough to be as arrogant as he has been.

I don't think it is arrogance. I think it is just frankness. I know very well how frankness can be hard to hear, especially when it is being communicated to the public.

Zorn hasn't been afraid to point a finger at himself. He has said a few times when he wanted a play back or regret how he behaved on the sidelines. No, he doesn't do it a lot and not nearly as much as Gibbs did it, but he does do it.

Even when he talks about the execution on the team, that's on him and his staff as well. It is his job to get his team ready to play. When he talks about needing to figure out how to get better protection, that is on him to devise ways to do that with the personnel he has.

[motorhead]

He may cost Dan too much.

Maybe Cooley or Portis becomes trade bait to get us more picks?

What? You want to get rid of 2 of are best players for unproven rookies?:whoknows:

[33]

I don't think it is arrogance. I think it is just frankness. I know very well how frankness can be hard to hear, especially when it is being communicated to the public.

Zorn hasn't been afraid to point a finger at himself. He has said a few times when he wanted a play back or regret how he behaved on the sidelines. No, he doesn't do it a lot and not nearly as much as Gibbs did it, but he does do it.

Even when he talks about the execution on the team, that's on him and his staff as well. It is his job to get his team ready to play. When he talks about needing to figure out how to get better protection, that is on him to devise ways to do that with the personnel he has.

Personally, I think he is frank and arrogant. Let's be honest, the guy was a starting Qb in the NFL. Arrogance is basically a pre-requisite.

I do agree with you that at times he points the finger at himself, but obviously he hasn't found the correct middle ground as it's being reported that players other than CP have been feeling his personality can be grating. It's his job to keep those guys believing. If they lose belief in Zorn, it's on him in the long run.

[Oldfan]

I do agree with you that at times he points the finger at himself, but obviously he hasn't found the correct middle ground as it's being reported that players other than CP have been feeling his personality can be grating. It's his job to keep those guys believing. If they lose belief in Zorn, it's on him in the long run.

If he wins, they'll believe. If he doesn't, it won't matter how diplomatic he becomes with the media. He'll lose their respect.

[Jumbo]

Agree with most of the meat, bulldog.

But on a more minor point, I keep reading on ES about "big ego" and "arrogance" and "swelled head" as associated with Zorn and don't really buy it as any part of some real problem. Too emotional at times this year, yes, and too open and unguarded, unwisely at times in his new role, yes. But his entire history has shown him to be more the straight shooter who can be as blunt as he is fair and supportive. The carniverous fan/media spotlight of DC on the Redskins will chew up most anyone unless the winning is constant, even a legendary HOF'er let alone a rookie outsider. He'll weather it or win, because it won't change.

For many years I lived in the area Zorn played and coached and watched him innumerable times in multiple media settings. I have also been around him several times over those years, as he was interacting with folks. On and off the field, he always maintained the same consistent and widespread reputation for being one of the more decent, approachable, fun, and non-egotistical guys (especially for a QB) all across the western region and the league.

As I said, he was generally known to be a firm no-nonsense guy when appropriate, with a great family, great lifelong friends, and the respect of his peers and coworkers. That what I observed over media and in person.

Those were all the same qualities I read/heard associated with him from the DC area media heads, fans, most of ES, and our players/personnel...until the last month.

Just wanted to note all that somewhere as I read the stuff on ES about what seems like this other Jim Zorn coming from people who really aren't there and seem to be interpeting a lot from relatively sparse input.

I think of all the issues facing the team, any real problems with Jim's ego is the least of it.