DCSaints_fan Posted November 5, 2008 Share Posted November 5, 2008 Flat tax sounds like a great idea... but there are some very serious problems with it. If we switch to a property tax I might be on board with the flat tax proposal. If you think of the purpose of government to secure property rights, it would make sense that everyone would pay the same rate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexey Posted November 5, 2008 Share Posted November 5, 2008 There is something fundamentaly wrong with having in charge of government people who think that government cannot possibly manage to do anything right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vicious Posted November 5, 2008 Share Posted November 5, 2008 I think you'll discover the whole world knows our cival war was over slavery, not states rights. It touched on states rights such that the federal government declared a state could not own a person, but not in any other way. And the constitution with the equal protection clause assured this to be so. :doh: The civil war had a lot more to do with slavery. It was common knowledge and discussed amount the confederate hierarchy that slavery would eventually be phased out. It had a lot more to do with the fact the south was financially feeding the north, which was reaping those sweet ass taxes that you keep trying to hide from. State rights, Slavery.. nah.. Money. Why do you think we fought the revolutionary war? Because we wanted to make a Democracy?? Haha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted November 5, 2008 Author Share Posted November 5, 2008 This is one of the problem areas I see with the flat tax. 1 - No tax deductions removes incentives to do a lot of the things that grow the economy, help those in need, and otherwise spend money in beneficial ways (like buying a home). 2 - No tax deductions removes the ability of government to direct spending to areas of need. After hurricanes for example tax incentives can be set up to boost reinvestment in the hardest hit areas speeding up the rebuilding efforts significantly. Both of these significantly weaken our government ability to respond to changing economic conditions. The other side of the coin is to allow deductions, and suddenly the upper end of the scale will be paying next to nothing in taxes in no time at all. Flat tax sounds like a great idea... but there are some very serious problems with it. I'm not sure either of your examples is a problem with the flat tax, but both are a problem with the current tax system. The tax code should not be the method to encourage home buying. The benefits of owning your own home do not cease to exist if deductions for owning it go away. I should know. I don't get to deduct the benefit . If anything, such deductions create the current housing crisis that places such a high value on home ownership and creates such inflated benefit in tax benefit as to push people who can not afford it into homes they eventually default on. We need less home ownership. We need MORE qualified home ownership. After a hurricane, no tax incentives are required to encourage investment in a ravaged region. Prices are already depressed. The market dictates it is a good buy. The government can sweeten the deal by insuring the insurers, keeping insurance costs from ranging out of control for new home buyers in those areas or new businesses. The tax code should be a very simple thing if it should exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dictator Posted November 5, 2008 Share Posted November 5, 2008 The U.S. Tax Code, literally, should be about six words. Deductions are a form of social engineering. Have children, credit. Buy a house, credit. Green car, credit. Marry, credit. why should having a child entitle you to a credit? If anything, you should have to pay MORE with each child. Each new member of the population is another burden on the system in one way or another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vicious Posted November 5, 2008 Share Posted November 5, 2008 Go ahead and not pay your taxes fellas, just tell the IRS exactly what you're telling people here. They will understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Titaw Posted November 5, 2008 Share Posted November 5, 2008 The middle class does not contribute? Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. The MAJORITY of the money that is stripped from the "wealthy" will go to people who don't contribute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vicious Posted November 5, 2008 Share Posted November 5, 2008 The MAJORITY of the money that is stripped from the "wealthy" will go to people who don't contribute. Yeah like the military, medicare and social security! THOSE NONCONTRIBUTING ****S!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted November 5, 2008 Author Share Posted November 5, 2008 It is for the middle class. Not the 1.5%. And, again, no its not. Obama has very clearly stated marginal rates are staying exactly where they are for everyone not making $250,000 (or whatever the number he settles on). This is not a guess. Look it up yourself. There are no tax rate reductions proposed or planned by Obama. He's calling the pass through of money from the 5 to the bottom 95 a tax cut, but it is actually not. But, if you believe this is so, you should very easily be able to show the marginal rate cuts he has outlined. Since you can't, with hope, you'll be able to engage this portion of the debate with knowledge helping you form opinions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted November 5, 2008 Author Share Posted November 5, 2008 There is something fundamentaly wrong with having in charge of government people who think that government cannot possibly manage to do anything right. More aptly, there is something fundamentally wrong with having someone in charge of government people who think YOU, the people, can not possibly manage to do anything right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted November 5, 2008 Author Share Posted November 5, 2008 why should having a child entitle you to a credit? If anything, you should have to pay MORE with each child. Each new member of the population is another burden on the system in one way or another. I do not believe having a child should entitle you to a tax credit. I stated in that post I do not believe in tax credits of any sort, for anything. The current tax system gives credits as a form of social engineering. Society values children and families, thus you get a credit. This is a poor use of the tax code that makes it more complex than is necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vicious Posted November 5, 2008 Share Posted November 5, 2008 Middle class families will see their taxes cut – and no family making less than $250,000 will see their taxes increase. The typical middle class family will receive well over $1,000 in tax relief under the Obama plan, and will pay tax rates that are 20% lower than they faced under President Reagan. According to the Tax Policy Center, the Obama plan provides three times as much tax relief for middle class families as the McCain plan. Families making more than $250,000 will pay either the same or lower tax rates than they paid in the 1990s. Obama will ask the wealthiest 2% of families to give back a portion of the tax cuts they have received over the past eight years to ensure we are restoring fairness and returning to fiscal responsibility. But no family will pay higher tax rates than they would have paid in the 1990s. In fact, dividend rates would be 39 percent lower than what President Bush proposed in his 2001 tax cut. Obama’s plan will cut taxes overall, reducing revenues to below the levels that prevailed under Ronald Reagan (less than 18.2 percent of GDP). The Obama tax plan is a net tax cut – his tax relief for middle class families is larger than the revenue raised by his tax changes for families over $250,000. Coupled with his commitment to cut unnecessary spending, Obama will pay for this tax relief while bringing down the budget deficit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted November 5, 2008 Author Share Posted November 5, 2008 Yeah like the military, medicare and social security!THOSE NONCONTRIBUTING ****S!!!! You listed two items in your list that are a plague to society that will help bankrupt us if not reformed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Titaw Posted November 5, 2008 Share Posted November 5, 2008 Yeah like the military, medicare and social security!THOSE NONCONTRIBUTING ****S!!!! Yeah because Obama wants to invest more into the military, riiiiiiiiiiight. Medicare won't see any changes and Social Security, HAHAHAHAHAHAHA, that was a joke right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vicious Posted November 5, 2008 Share Posted November 5, 2008 Yeah because Obama wants to invest more into the military, riiiiiiiiiiight. Medicare won't see any changes and Social Security, HAHAHAHAHAHAHA, that was a joke right? Are you a freaking joke dude, do you know where you tax dollars go? Get some freaking mental comprehension before you start spouting off your pathetic garbage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hailskinz1991 Posted November 5, 2008 Share Posted November 5, 2008 I think the energy would be better spent on exemplifying the fundamentals of the conservative philosophy to more people. I truly believe that most people out there have a really negative view of the conservative philosophy. I feel that if Conservatives are able to spread their philosophies and educate more people about what they stand for and why they stand for it, and tie it directly to how it affects the individual, it will be clear to see that Conservitivism is superior and the base will expand and more importantly diversify. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brandymac27 Posted November 5, 2008 Share Posted November 5, 2008 The American Dream is a simple concept. If you take risk and do something people like or need, you can become rich. With that wealth, as with Bill Gates for example, you may help thousands with your billions. American values do not uplift equalling out earned income so all people hold a relatively equal share. Those values exist, but spoken by an American they should not be. The problem that I see with this is that people like Bill Gates, Oprah, etc. do indeed help those less fortunate, but only to a certain degree. Yes, they donate time and money for causes that they believe in, like Oprah's school for example. But, the problem is that they can't help immediately where help is really needed- like putting food on a family's table or warm clothes for kids who don't any. Don't get me wrong, I admire them greatly for their philanthropy, but much more is needed. By starting a school, Oprah is helping plenty of kids get a good education, but what good is that education if they can't go to school b/c they don't have clothes to wear or food to eat when they get home? (yes, I know Oprah's school is in Africa, but I'm using this as an example of some of the problems we're facing here in America). Oprah has said that poverty now is different from the poverty she experienced. I don't know if I believe this to be true. There are plenty of people who truly don't have the bare necessities including food, shelter, electricity through no fault of their own, let alone Playstations, Air Jordans, etc. I know people who would be happy just to have electricity, let alone video games. Remember, it only takes a person getting sick or losing their job to fall into this category. I don't see any wealthy people running to their aid when they need help. In all honesty, the government, for many people, is their only option to help them get back on their feet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ballin86 Posted November 5, 2008 Share Posted November 5, 2008 I definitely want to be a contributor to this, am a devout conservative and would enjoy making contributions to your site Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted November 5, 2008 Author Share Posted November 5, 2008 Vicious, Thanks for finding information that informs you that no one will have their tax rate cut now. The phrasing of the article you presented was written very specifically to avoid any mention of today's rates, which you do not see once. The relief to those making less than $250,000 comes in the form of a credit, not a rate cut. All Obama has promised, rather openly and without any ambiguity, is to extend the Bush tax cuts for all but the top two levels, and pass a refund to everyone else, including those who pay 0 income tax already. Seriously, how can you NOT know this? Do you honestly think Obama is proposing tax rate cuts for anyone? If you knew better, would it have altered your vote? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vicious Posted November 5, 2008 Share Posted November 5, 2008 Poverty is the dust bowl. These tax cuts arn't for the impoverished, they don't even pay taxes. These are for the middle class so they are not squeezed to death. Sorry, but people are going to have to cough that money up if they want to be a part of this society. Don't like it, leave.. but where would you go? Ha ha. Welcome to the new world, where universal health care and middle class relief is a staple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vicious Posted November 5, 2008 Share Posted November 5, 2008 A chicken is trying to cross a road. If it gets there by walking backwards or forwards it's still going to get across the road. Get your check book out, uncle sam is coming for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZoEd Posted November 5, 2008 Share Posted November 5, 2008 So everyone who doesn't support Obama and the Dems policies is an angry white guy full of vitriol? Gotcha Obama lives for generalizations; "those clinging to God and their guns" and my favorite "those people down there in the south have monuments of people who killed my people". Does it suprise you that his supporters will also generalize? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
headexplode Posted November 5, 2008 Share Posted November 5, 2008 More aptly, there is something fundamentally wrong with having someone in charge of government people who think YOU, the people, can not possibly manage to do anything right. But the government in a representative republic such as ours is a direct reflection of "YOU, the people." We are the ones who elect them to represent us, then spend the time until the next election ****ing about them, only to elect them again. The failures of our government is a failure of us, collectively. As are the failures of our markets. There should be no separation in this country between the government and the governed. We are the government, and are responsible for its excesses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted November 5, 2008 Author Share Posted November 5, 2008 Poverty is the dust bowl. These tax cuts arn't for the impoverished, they don't even pay taxes. These are for the middle class so they are not squeezed to death. Sorry, but people are going to have to cough that money up if they want to be a part of this society. Don't like it, leave.. but where would you go? Ha ha. Welcome to the new world, where universal health care and middle class relief is a staple. We've seen that world. We were better than that world. Sad you'd like us to be the world we defeated in the Cold War, or which exists in any other country where these staples exist. No question it appears to be the order of the day to destroy America from within and that fall may be something we can not stop. But, we can find ourselves disturbed when we see someone so pleased his nation is becoming a lesser one, by adopting the tennants of those we surpassed long ago with different values as our staples. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vicious Posted November 5, 2008 Share Posted November 5, 2008 Obama lives for generalizations; "those clinging to God and their guns" and my favorite "those people down there in the south have monuments of people who killed my people". Does it suprise you that his supporters will also generalize? Are you generalizing that Obama supporters generalize? Dangerous game you are playing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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