Jason Campbell's Deep Ball

[Thinking Skins]

This is a thread which I hope to re-open a discussion from last season, namely Jason Campbell's deep ball. Here's a thread where this topic was discussed at length last year.

http://www.extremeskins.com/showthread.php?t=220127

I'm not trying to criticize him, but its not hard to notice that the deep ball isn't a large part of our playbook right now. Whether it'll become more of a part of it over the coming weeks remains to be seen. I'm a big supporter of Campbell but I'm disappointed in the number of big plays by our offense and in particular, the lack of attempts at deep balls.

Last season this was a problem as well. It seemed that Gibbs was ultra conservative with Campbell and didn't want Campbell to just throw it up for grabs. Add to that the fact that his WRs were so often injured last year that it could have been hard for the WRs and QB to develop chemistry and I could somewhat understand both sides of the argument.

But this season, we have Moss putting up good numbers. We have a rookie WR in Thomas who may not know his routes to perfection, but has gotten open on many deep routes in his limited time playing. Then we have the ball to Fred Davis which was a moderately deep ball and I think Campbell was stumbling a bit when he threw it, but that shoulda been 7 points and he missed it.

I bring this up because I'm wondering how many of the same problems from last year are present this year?

- Is there still a problem with the chemistry with the WRs on the deep ball? This doesn't seem to be true because Moss has been our sole deep threat in most games (and Campbell has made some nice plays connecting to him), but what about the other WRs? Is the reason that we're not trying more stuff to Thomas because Campbell just doesn't have the chemistry yet?

- Are our WRs still injured? I know ARE had a broken hand and Thrash had a sprained ankle. I don't know if those are the same level of banged up as last year, but it may be limiting our play calling.

- Is Zorn trying to "protect" Campbell in a similar way that Saunders/Gibbs tried to? I think that the most telling stat about this may be the fact that Campbell hasn't thrown a pic yet. We as fans see it as a blessing and Zorn praises it as a good thing, but could it also be a curse in that he's still trying to build Campbell and the offense's confidense in this system? Or does he feel that we're not good enough to make the mistake of a pic on a deep ball and overcome it?

[Heisenberg]

Zorn seems pleased with his decision making and seems to get irritated whenever this subject is brought up.

I'm not sure what to make of that but it's been discussed with him the past few weeks.

[NinjaGaiden]

I wish and hope to see more deep balls especially to either Moss or El. There are pretty good chances that we can catch it or get the pass interference

[LadySkinsFan]

I think Jason can throw the deep ball, however, the West Coast offense is not about the deep ball.

[Thinking Skins]

Oh, I forgot to mention that another reason that Thomas may not be getting deep balls is because of the pass interference calls that he got early on. They may feel that he needs to mature more before they can trust him, and the talking smack (after a good special teams play) against Cleveland probably won't help us in that regard.

[Taylor4Life]

These would be good questions to those who actually attend the games. While watching on TV, it's not always possible to know what kind of routes the receivers are running.

It may turn out that the receivers ARE running intermediate/deep routes, but the receivers running those routes just aren't getting seperation, leading JC to go to the checkdown option. But again, these are things that you just can't see entirely on TV.

I would have thought that by now, teams would have committed more to stopping the run, but so far, it looks like defenses are still keeping safeties way back off of the line, probably to stop the long ball to Moss. As long as defenses continue to do that, we'll continue to run it down their throats and throw short.

[corrupt3d]

Last week he definately tried to throw it down there, but anytime he'd try and set up, there'd be pressure in his face. Up until the STL game, I didnt have a problem with the amount of deep balls we were attempting, or the lack of them.

We'll see what we do against Detroit.

[Oldfan]

I think Jason can throw the deep ball, however, the West Coast offense is not about the deep ball.

That's right. The Coryell offense, with more seven step drops, wants to go deep more often than Walsh's system built on using quick, short tosses in combination with runs to maintain ball control.

[Thinking Skins]

That's right. The Coryell offense, with more seven step drops, wants to go deep more often than Walsh's system built on using quick, short tosses in combination with runs to maintain ball control.

true, but it seems that other teams that have a QB who can throw deep should utilize that talent. The same way that the WCO isn't built around a power running game, but we're making it work. Or the way that the WCO isn't built around shotgun formations but we added those.

[Thinking Skins]

Last week he definately tried to throw it down there, but anytime he'd try and set up, there'd be pressure in his face. Up until the STL game, I didnt have a problem with the amount of deep balls we were attempting, or the lack of them.

We'll see what we do against Detroit.

Maybe this is tied to teams doubling on Moss. I remember Riggo saying that Moss is known for his double move. Maybe teams are planning against that which is causing us to look more conservative.

[Ray Brown]

Maybe this is tied to teams doubling on Moss. I remember Riggo saying that Moss is known for his double move. Maybe teams are planning against that which is causing us to look more conservative.

its definitely due to teams doubling santana. everyone realizes that he is our only true deep threat and by taking that away with a double or a safety over the top, you take away the deep ball. Randel El is no where near a deep threat. until a third receiver steps up to take away the double team on Santana don't expect many deep bombs

[Thinking Skins]

These would be good questions to those who actually attend the games. While watching on TV, it's not always possible to know what kind of routes the receivers are running.

It may turn out that the receivers ARE running intermediate/deep routes, but the receivers running those routes just aren't getting seperation, leading JC to go to the checkdown option. But again, these are things that you just can't see entirely on TV.

I would have thought that by now, teams would have committed more to stopping the run, but so far, it looks like defenses are still keeping safeties way back off of the line, probably to stop the long ball to Moss. As long as defenses continue to do that, we'll continue to run it down their throats and throw short.

See, this is my thing....and it kinda ties into something that Doc normally says on his show. Its nice to see that Campbell "has the ability" to check down. I like knowing that he's not always going to try to put the team on his back and win THIS PLAY. But I would like him to be a bit more of a gunslinger. Why not just say, "I know Moss is double covered, but I think I can get it between the two defenders?" Thats what I'd like to see more of.

Or even when a guy like ARE or Thrash is covered, I'd like to see Campbell throw it to their outside shoulder where only the WR can get it. Or heck, even if he does something similar to what Bulger did to us last week, where he underthrew a well-covered Avery and allowed the WR to make a play for the ball.

I like that he CAN check down (something that he wasn't doing in the Giants game), but he doesn't NEED to check down on EVERY PLAY. I guess that's my main point.

[Thinking Skins]

its definitely due to teams doubling santana. everyone realizes that he is our only true deep threat and by taking that away with a double or a safety over the top, you take away the deep ball. Randel El is no where near a deep threat. until a third receiver steps up to take away the double team on Santana don't expect many deep bombs

Yeah, but its just that I think I'd like to see him actually test that double coverage more. It might lead to some more picks, but it might also lead to some more big plays.

I remember when teams were doubling Clark game after game and Rypen was insistent on throwing him the deep ball and it worked more often than not.

[Thinking Skins]

I'm sitting reading about this record that Campbell is close to breaking and to me its kinda similar to Brunell's 22 straight completions record. It didn't mean anything because they were all screens. ANYBODY can make 22 straight screen passes.

If Campbell can make this record, its a great accomplishment and I'll be happy for him, but in the back of my head I'll be thinking that part of the reason is because he DIDN't TAKE CHANCES DOWNFIELD. Not saying that nullifies the achievement, but being unwilling to take chances can hurt us a lot more than him getting the record can help us.

[Ray Brown]

Yeah, but its just that I think I'd like to see him actually test that double coverage more. It might lead to some more picks, but it might also lead to some more big plays.

I remember when teams were doubling Clark game after game and Rypen was insistent on throwing him the deep ball and it worked more often than not.

i would like to see more shots downfield as well, but i don't want them forced downfield into coverage just for the hell of it. campbell is a game manager right now, not a gunslinger. we don't need him to win games for us right now by taking those types of chances. if its there go for it.

[elkabong82]

Because chucking it deep isn't a guarantee and this team focuses more on moving the chains and playing mistake free. Devin needs to work on getting open without committing a penalty, and teams are all over Moss right now. As the offense grows there will be more deep passes, but it seems to me this team is more about time of possesion than they are about quick scores. Some of you may not like this philosophy, but it won us the game against Dallas and Philly, while quick strike teams like Philly and Dallas right now can't hang with tougher teams.

[Taylor4Life]

I like that he CAN check down (something that he wasn't doing in the Giants game), but he doesn't NEED to check down on EVERY PLAY. I guess that's my main point.

I have no problem with the way JC or the offense plays when we are up on the scoreboard and clearly in control of the game.

However, I have the same concerns that you do at times when we need a QUICK score to regain control of the ballgame, or at the end of a half. Our 2 minute drills don't suck-- they're non-existent.

We DO seem to lack a quick strike ability, but hopefully we can coach up those rookies so that we have more weapons on offense.

[AURugby1984]

I'm sitting reading about this record that Campbell is close to breaking and to me its kinda similar to Brunell's 22 straight completions record. It didn't mean anything because they were all screens. ANYBODY can make 22 straight screen passes.

If Campbell can make this record, its a great accomplishment and I'll be happy for him, but in the back of my head I'll be thinking that part of the reason is because he DIDN't TAKE CHANCES DOWNFIELD. Not saying that nullifies the achievement, but being unwilling to take chances can hurt us a lot more than him getting the record can help us.

Dude, we are winning games. At this point I do not care how vanilla our offensive playcalling is, so long as we come out on top. This is the NFL, not college football. Style points do you no good.

[Thinking Skins]

Because chucking it deep isn't a guarantee and this team focuses more on moving the chains and playing mistake free. Devin needs to work on getting open without committing a penalty, and teams are all over Moss right now. As the offense grows there will be more deep passes, but it seems to me this team is more about time of possesion than they are about quick scores. Some of you may not like this philosophy, but it won us the game against Dallas and Philly, while quick strike teams like Philly and Dallas right now can't hang with tougher teams.

In the long run, you may be right about this. But I'm also worried about Campbell's development as a QB. We haven't had to come back from being down 20 points or so late in the game, but what happens when we do? Do we just give up? Is it then that we start to chuck it deep?

Plus the thing about a strong running game is that it makes the safeties cheat up to the line and opens up stuff deep. So are teams that afraid of Moss that they're willing to let Portis beat us? Or are we so afraid of a big play that we're going to put the team on Portis's back?

[Thinking Skins]

i would like to see more shots downfield as well, but i don't want them forced downfield into coverage just for the hell of it. campbell is a game manager right now, not a gunslinger. we don't need him to win games for us right now by taking those types of chances. if its there go for it.

See, there goes that word "game manager" (well 2 words, but you get what I mean). Trent Dilfer was a game manager. Kyle Boller was a game manager. Backup QBs are game managers. Jason Campbell is no game manager. He needs to know how to manage a game, but he also needs to know how to stick his hand into the chest of the other team and rip out their heart!

[cyfar]

Oh, I forgot to mention that another reason that Thomas may not be getting deep balls is because of the pass interference calls that he got early on. They may feel that he needs to mature more before they can trust him, and the talking smack (after a good special teams play) against Cleveland probably won't help us in that regard.

I've felt the same way regarding Thomas. People forget that Thomas should be a college senior this year and on top of that, he only spent one year at Michigan State. That dude is very imature right now. They are probably trying to temper(can't think of a better word at the moment) him before they start to make him a big part of the O.

[MurrayH81]

First let me say that I am more the 5 yards and a cloud of dust guy. I grew up watching Air Coryell, and I have grown to appreciate a stout defense and strong running game.

Campbell clearly has the ability to deliver a deep ball. Moss clearly has the ability to catch one. So those two items cannot be factors in the reason why we are not seeing them.

Three other factors come to mind to explain the lack of the deep ball;

1. Opposing defenses are taking away the deep threat, forcing the Skins to beat them by long slow drives using the running and short passing game. This gives their defenses a better shot at stopping the Skins than a quick deep shot to Moss. It also allows the Skins to make mistakes and turnovers, thus stopping the drive.

2. Unfamiliarity with the complete offense that Zorn wants to install/run. If the Coach isn't convinced that the team is ready (for whatever reason - practice results, injuries, or game results) for the deep part of his offensive play book, then we may not see it until the readiness has improved.

3. It's a long season. Perhaps Zorn learned the Spurrier lesson well, and isn't using all his weapons or playbook until he feels that he needs to. Why tip his hand if he is getting wins and productivity without putting new stuff out there for DC's to plan for. Personally, I believe that you must have hidden reserves to sucessfully wage a campaign.

I could be all of these or any of them. One thing is for sure. I just love me some Skins.:logo:

[Thinking Skins]

I have no problem with the way JC or the offense plays when we are up on the scoreboard and clearly in control of the game.

However, I have the same concerns that you do at times when we need a QUICK score to regain control of the ballgame, or at the end of a half. Our 2 minute drills don't suck-- they're non-existent.

We DO seem to lack a quick strike ability, but hopefully we can coach up those rookies so that we have more weapons on offense.

Exactly.

And in regards to your earlier posts....the games I've been to, i've seen the Thomas getting open, but otherwise, I've just taken the word of fans who said that they saw it. I don't know if thats the most reliable info, but I have a feeling that we're not taking advantage of everything we have.

[jpillian]

Right now we have a great running attack, and a very good defense. Our passing game is consistent, though not flashy.

I think this due partially to taking what opposing defenses are giving us, and partially doing what we excel at (the type of players we have). We are a team that has been built around controlling possession of the ball.

As this season progresses, and the offense gets more comfortable in the new scheme, I expect to see Campbell being asked to make more happen. As it is right now, he's being asked to just manage the game and keep from turning over the ball. I think this will also be contingent on some of our draft picks maturing, as well.

:whoknows:

[Thinking Skins]

Dude, we are winning games. At this point I do not care how vanilla our offensive playcalling is, so long as we come out on top. This is the NFL, not college football. Style points do you no good.

We're winning games playing Joe Gibbs type football. Most of this board wanted to fire Gibbs for calling these plays "limiting" Campbell. Now Zorn comes in here and is doing the same things and suddenly people shouldn't care?

Ultimately it bogs down to us keeping bad teams in games a whole lot longer than they should be. So stuff like the onsides kick against the cowboys or the FG at the end of the Rams game or the fumble in the Browns game wind up being plays that could cost us the game, when the games shouldn't be that close.