techboy Posted September 23, 2008 Share Posted September 23, 2008 Put that strawman down. No way. I like strawmen. I'm going to dress up as one this Halloween. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
techboy Posted September 23, 2008 Share Posted September 23, 2008 This debate is of the Christians' making. Not just this thread, but the entire discussion on the absolute answers to life, the universe and God. If all people are imperfect, expecting any one of them to have a perfect understanding of God is a fundamentally flawed premise. And even if one perfect person came down from the heavens and proclaimed stuff, expecting imperfect people to interpret his words perfectly is equally an flawed premise (especially thousands of years later.) This is more or less correct, in the sense that it is impossible to argue that any Christian, let alone all of them, posess perfect knowledge and understanding of everything. I am not holding Christians up to an impossible standard. Christians are claiming ownership of an impossible possession: Perfect knowledge of a perfect being. This is going too far. Generally speaking, Christians claim only to know with certainty a few simple, basic doctrines, which it is not unreasonable to believe that God could convey to finite beings: the existence of said God, the Ressurection of His Son, and the necessity of that Son's death for salvation, and so on. That's not the same thing at all as expecting total unamity on every possible topic, no matter how obscure. Yes, there are Christians that seem to think they know everything about everything, and yes, they are unwilling to admit that they might be wrong about even the most peripheral and controversial points, but we call those guys "fundamentalists" for a reason, and the term is not generally considered to be complimentary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry Posted September 23, 2008 Share Posted September 23, 2008 This is going too far. Generally speaking, Christians claim only to know with certainty a few simple, basic doctrines, which it is not unreasonable to believe that God could convey to finite beings: the existence of said God, the Ressurection of His Son, and the necessity of that Son's death for salvation, and so on.That's not the same thing at all as expecting total unamity on every possible topic, no matter how obscure. I think we've had this discussion before. You're numerator here is 0 and you are arguing the size of the denominator. Either way, the value is still 0. It is a given that people are imperfect. Therefore, expecting imperfect beings to extrapolate the nature of and word of God perfectly into even "simple, basic doctrines" is, in my opinion, unreasonable. In other words I'd say it is impossible to argue that any person, let alone a large group of people, posesses perfect knowledge and understanding of anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
techboy Posted September 23, 2008 Share Posted September 23, 2008 Henry, how is it that you can know with absolute certainty that it is impossible for anyone to know anything with absolute certainty? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry Posted September 23, 2008 Share Posted September 23, 2008 Henry, how is it that you can know with absolute certainty that it is impossible for anyone to know anything with absolute certainty? I can't. If God can do anything, can he make a rock he can't lift? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kosher Ham Posted September 23, 2008 Share Posted September 23, 2008 Yoda can do anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
techboy Posted September 23, 2008 Share Posted September 23, 2008 If God can do anything, can he make a rock he can't lift? Actually, that one's pretty easy. Omnipotence does not include the ability to perform logical contradictions. There are other things God can't do, either, such as act contrary to His own nature. So, no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry Posted September 23, 2008 Share Posted September 23, 2008 Actually, that one's pretty easy. Omnipotence does not include the ability to perform logical contradictions. There are other things God can't do, either, such as act contrary to His own nature.So, no. ... You know what? I'm going to let this go now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artmonkforHOF Posted September 23, 2008 Share Posted September 23, 2008 As an Evangelical Christian, I have a question for non-Christians, agnostics, atheists etc. Christians please do not answer since I already know your answers. Are these things always wrong? Murder (killing with malicious intent)-WRONG Slavery-VERY WRONG Pedophilia- EVEN MORE WRONG Beastiality- WRONG ON SO MANY LEVELS Theft-WRONG Rape-WRONG Incest -WRONG Deceit- Neither, It's the American way! Please post your answers next to the subject e.g. "Rape - Yes". Also, please explain your reasoning. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zguy28 Posted September 23, 2008 Author Share Posted September 23, 2008 ArtmonkforHOF, are those things always wrong? In any situation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbear Posted September 23, 2008 Share Posted September 23, 2008 Murder (killing with malicious intent)- I'm a just war proponent. I also tend to think in looking back in history there are times where the world would have been better off if somebody had killed a few people. I know when my friend was raped in college, we had talked about drawing straws should he be found innocent. I think I would have done it had I drawn said straw with pleanty of malice in heart, and I would have told myself I was preventing anyone else from going through what my friend and our campus went through. There would definitely have been hate involved, but at that point I would have given my life up as a fair trade even if it meant being somebody's play toy in prison for the rest of my life. Slavery - I'm betting my answer is controversial. I don't know. I think it depends on the definition. As I travel around to the Pacific Islands where the minimum wage laws are going to raise wages in part becuase they are portrayed as "slave wages," I come to realize that often they are the best paying jobs available. Going back to serfdom days, there was at least an ideal, often poorly recognized or implimented, of noblis oblige. I'm not sure that taking care of somebody better than any other option is a bad thing if they get to chose when to come and/or go. That gets into the definition of "slavery." Pedophilia - no consent = always wrong Beastiality - no consent = always wrong Theft - Got a definition? How many times have taxes been called theft on this board? Sorry, theft is a highly situational one for me. There are things for which I would steal. Thankfully, I've been lucky/blessed enough to not be placed in situations where I've needed to make this choice. Rape- no consent = always wrong Incest - tough. Do we look at this solely from the can cause bio harm? I tend to think this is bad even with consenting adults. That said, I don't know that there aren't situations where there is good tht ouw-weighs it though. I do know there are cultures where it is the norm. Hopkins sees a lot of rich people from happy families from cultures where it is the norm. Deceit - I'm a big fan of placebo medicines being used on me if they work. We often underestimate the power of our minds to shape the world we experience. If it takes deceit to let people live in a better world, even if it is one that exists only in their minds, lie! That said if you lie, it better be for a good cause and recognizing the potenttial costs of truth being found later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outbaksean Posted September 23, 2008 Share Posted September 23, 2008 Christians please do not answer since I already know your answers. wtf! every Christian think exactly the same now! I'm going to say only sometimes wrong for all of them. Circumstances always dictate right and wrong. I can see many situations for when any of these things would be the right thing to do, and I'm surprised that so many of you can't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
techboy Posted September 23, 2008 Share Posted September 23, 2008 ...You know what? I'm going to let this go now. That's probably for the best. These kind of discussions are really best in Journals of Philosophy or at 3:00 AM in a friend's car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
techboy Posted September 23, 2008 Share Posted September 23, 2008 I'm going to say sometime's wrong for all of them. Circumstances always dictate right and wrong. I actually have to agree with this. The circumstances offered are too vague to be useful. While I believe that absolute right and wrong are a given, circumstances matter. In each particular circumstance an action is absolutely right or wrong (or perhaps neutral), but circumstances can change one's assessment. Take, for instance, lying. If I lie to get ahead in my job. That is selfish and wrong. If I lie to the Nazis when they ask about the Jews hiding in my basement, that is another matter. In each instance, the action is absolutely right or absolutely wrong, but one needs to know all the circumstances in order to assess the situation properly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zguy28 Posted September 23, 2008 Author Share Posted September 23, 2008 I actually have to agree with this. The circumstances offered are too vague to be useful.While I believe that absolute right and wrong are a given, circumstances matter. In each particular circumstance an action is absolutely right or wrong (or perhaps neutral), but circumstances can change one's assessment. Take, for instance, lying. If I lie to get ahead in my job. That is selfish and wrong. If I lie to the Nazis when they ask about the Jews hiding in my basement, that is another matter. In each instance, the action is absolutely right or absolutely wrong, but one needs to know all the circumstances in order to assess the situation properly. You are correct. For instance, when Moses wetnurse's hid him from Pharaoh's troops, the bible does not condemn them for their deception. Motive does go to justification.By the way, it was just intended to gather some general information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enter Apotheosis Posted September 23, 2008 Share Posted September 23, 2008 By the way, it was just intended to gather some general information. Again... about what? Generally speaking, any time you conduct a survey of sorts you want your motives to be at least somewhat transparent as a simple matter of ethics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strandgaard Posted September 23, 2008 Share Posted September 23, 2008 Beastiality is actually legal in denmark if the animal isn't harmed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zguy28 Posted September 24, 2008 Author Share Posted September 24, 2008 Again... about what? Generally speaking, any time you conduct a survey of sorts you want your motives to be at least somewhat transparent as a simple matter of ethics. A project for church about what non-Christians believe with regards to morals, values, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Springfield Posted September 24, 2008 Share Posted September 24, 2008 Are these things always wrong? Murder (killing with malicious intent): Yes. Unless provoked, killing somebody is always wrong. Slavery: Yes. I wouldn't want to be your slave so I shouldn't expect that any of you guys would want to be my slave. Pedophilia: Yes. Although I don't think there is anything wrong with an 18 year old guy dating a 16 year old girl. 18 year old guy dating a 13 year old girl, definitely wrong. Beastiality: Yes. Unless of course you are a horse and you like making love to other horses. Theft: No. Thievery is necessary sometimes. Thievery can be used for many benevolent purposes. Rape: Yes. Nobody should ever have sex with somebody who doesn't want their sex. Incest: Yes. Pretty gross too. Deceit: No. Deceit can also be used for benevolent means. Usually it's not, but sometimes deception can be the only answer. Any yes, I guarantee that I don't believe in god. Sorry folks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Springfield Posted September 24, 2008 Share Posted September 24, 2008 A project for church about what non-Christians believe with regards to morals, values, etc. I'd be that a lot of us non-Christians hold some of the same morals and values as Christians. Some of us possibly hold better morals or values that some Christians as well (you know, those Easter and Christmas types ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enter Apotheosis Posted September 24, 2008 Share Posted September 24, 2008 A project for church about what non-Christians believe with regards to morals, values, etc. You should provide us with an abstract of your findings, then :thumbsup: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
techboy Posted September 24, 2008 Share Posted September 24, 2008 I'd be that a lot of us non-Christians hold some of the same morals and values as Christians. This comes as no surprise to the Christian, and I'll bet if you ask him nicely, he'll even tell you why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zguy28 Posted September 24, 2008 Author Share Posted September 24, 2008 Are these things always wrong?Murder (killing with malicious intent): Yes. Unless provoked, killing somebody is always wrong. Slavery: Yes. I wouldn't want to be your slave so I shouldn't expect that any of you guys would want to be my slave. Pedophilia: Yes. Although I don't think there is anything wrong with an 18 year old guy dating a 16 year old girl. 18 year old guy dating a 13 year old girl, definitely wrong. Beastiality: Yes. Unless of course you are a horse and you like making love to other horses. Theft: No. Thievery is necessary sometimes. Thievery can be used for many benevolent purposes. Rape: Yes. Nobody should ever have sex with somebody who doesn't want their sex. Incest: Yes. Pretty gross too. Deceit: No. Deceit can also be used for benevolent means. Usually it's not, but sometimes deception can be the only answer. Any yes, I guarantee that I don't believe in god. Sorry folks. Since you brought it up... how can you define Uninversal Good or Bad, or Universal Right or Wrong without God? Seems you are living a contradiction in philosphy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Springfield Posted September 24, 2008 Share Posted September 24, 2008 Since you brought it up... how can you define Uninversal Good or Bad, or Universal Right or Wrong without God? Seems you are living a contradiction in philosphy. Quite simply, I don't believe that my views are universal. I believe that my views are PERSONALLY moral for myself. Philosophically speaking, morals are subjective and no one can truly know what is absolutely right and what is absolutely wrong. I will give you this though. A lot of my views were formed from a religious upbringing. It also is what makes sense to ME. I believe that the 10 commandments are certainly a good set of basic rules. A set of good rules to keep the masses from becoming an angry mob. Basically, I think that you can come to your own conclusions about the rights and wrongs of life without a higher power directing you. I don't try to impress my beliefs on many people (certainly nobody here) but I think that anyone can come to their own set of values based on their own life experiences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Springfield Posted September 24, 2008 Share Posted September 24, 2008 This comes as no surprise to the Christian, and I'll bet if you ask him nicely, he'll even tell you why. I think I already know why, but I'd be more than happy to let you indulge me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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