Rocky Mountain High, or, Why I Hope Zorn Takes a Long Look at Denver.

[Hunter_R]

Seriously you picked the worst beer brewed in CO.

Just shows how bad that area is.

[Dan T.]

I got the sense that Zorn's offense was a patchwork affair last year. He got caught by surprise in being named head coach, and he didn't know he'd have full control until then. Now he's had a full season AND a full offseason to think about his scheme, his personnel, and what he wants to do them. That gift of time will be of great benefit to his progress in 2009

[Hubbs]

I don't think he is talking about Jason scrabling out of the pocket, I think he is talking about plays where the entire pocket is designed to move right after the ball is snapped. And Jason would just roll with the pocket, and stay in the pocket as he looks for the deep rainbow. THAT is the type of thing Jason may be good at.

I was talking about both, actually; he apparently disagrees with me on broken plays. While I'd say Campbell is sub-par at actually managing to escape the pocket, once he does so, I argue that he's very good - and that's a lot more relevant to plays which are designed for him to leave the pocket.

[darrelgreenie]

..certain aspects of the Mile High Offense seem to fit the Redskins perfectly,...- Shanahan's offense is predicated upon a moving pocket and deeper throws. This type of attack plays to Campbell's strengths....The Broncos maximize this approach, and have refined it to a level that no other team in the league can match.

Having the benefit of looking back at that season i noticed that:

o We did get JC with some using the bootleg from I-Form, but no where near as often as Denver and our routes were much shorter, Denver rolled Cutler out of the pocket and sent their receivers downfield.

o Denver even used some playaction/roll-out in the redzone which i don't recall the Skins doing.

o I think Cutler often moves around on his own because he knows his OL can hold their blocks from tackle to tackle and i also thinks he's familiar enough in the system to know where to be to get good angles to deliver certain passes.

Just look how much time and how clean his pocket is for most of these throws:

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d80aa9e26/WK-1-Jay-Cutler-highlights

1st- throw- Cutler shifts toward the right in the pocket

2nd throw- there was no ® side outside b/c the RDE stunts inside which left the edge clear for Cutler to get outside the pocket

3rd- Nice play-fake bootleg backside nice throw to the TE

(Imo JC also has the arm to make that throw)

4th- The ® side OL mauls Oaklands DL knocking some of them to the ground! Great blocking for a pass play when the OL is practically pushing the DL back! Cutler has a nice clean pocket to move around and step up to make the throw

5th- Cutler kinda does a semi-sprint out/half roll behind the tackle (designed?) and the RB whiffs on his block (nice throw)

6th-Great play design! Play action roll out nice clean pocket to step up and throw the corner.

*I would love to see a half roll on play when we ran the corner routes from 4 wide b/c IMHO its hard to throw a good corner route from inside the pocket on a straight drop back.

Secondly, Shanahan has historically made great use of both the two-tight end set and receiving tight ends.

The addition of Scott Wachenheim as TE coach and the praise being heaped on Fred Davis i think we should be seeing more double TE sets this season.

And i recall seeing more double TE sets as the season progressed.

^^U,Y=Davis/Cooley

There were also a couple of I-Form double TE sets we ran.

1 WR Twin TEs (side by side one on the Los one off)

or

Finally, there's Portis. We all know how dominant Portis was in Denver. Fast-developing, one-cut rushing plays that get him on the edges fit Clinton's strengths perfectly. Not only that, but they're the counterpart to the mobile pocket - all those bootlegs that Denver runs are based off of an outside play action to the other side of the field.

I would love to see a running blocking design similiar to the Broncos and the Texans with zone blocking schemes but, i don't think we have the OL or the coaches to do it.

We did run the stretch play some but we ran it mostly from the I-Form.

Can we please run the toss/pitch more?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

I think there are a few major differences between the Broncos and the Redskins offenses:

1) Shanahan is a experienced and aggressive in the WCO.

Dude was on staff with Bill Walsh and Jerry Rice 49ers.

2) Their OL is much better then ours and the staff is experienced in zone blocking schemes that are a staple of many WCOs

3) They got production from their rookie WR

Edit: BTW- nice thread, good bump i missed it the 1st time around

[Hubbs]

Great points, DG. Out of curiosity, who's Scott Wachenheim? I don't remember seeing any threads about him, but you seem to think he's quite the hire.

[darrelgreenie]

Great points, DG. Out of curiosity, who's Scott Wachenheim? I don't remember seeing any threads about him, but you seem to think he's quite the hire.

http://www.redskins.com/gen/articles/Redskins_Hire_Scott_Wachenheim_As_Tight_Ends_Coach_31803.jsp

Wachenheim is the new TE coach.

I don't know if i think he's quite the hire, but he'll be one of the few coaches on staff that will have worked with Zorn before.

He was the OC of a prolific college offense and he has experience coaching the OL as well.

[Oldfan]

Having the benefit of looking back at that season i noticed that....

You made some interesting observations. I will comment on a couple of them.

The addition of Scott Wachenheim as TE coach and the praise being heaped on Fred Davis i think we should be seeing more double TE sets this season

If Fred Davis turns out to be as good as Shawn Springs predicted, we will see him and Cooley on the field often in more than two TE sets.

I would love to see a running blocking design similiar to the Broncos and the Texans with zone blocking schemes but, i don't think we have the OL or the coaches to do it.

I think you are missing something here. Al Saunders told us that we became primarily a zone blocking team in 2006. We do a lot of it. However, despite Denver's gaudy numbers, produced by lots of homeruns, the scheme is flawed. Denver has been consistently weak in the redzone. So, I think a hybrid is the current weapon of choice in NFL running games.

2) Their OL is much better then ours and the staff is experienced in zone blocking schemes that are a staple of many WCOs

Cutler's legs allowed Shanahan to move him, which in turn made the O lines job easier.

3) They got production from their rookie WR

Without Cutler throwing the long ball to him, look for Royal's production to dip this season. We will also find out if Marshall can run precise routes.

[The Full Monty]

A big staple of the denver offense under Shanahan was the bootleg -- Elway and later Plummer ran that to perfection - and I don't currently see that as a big part of our offense -- although I wish it was.

[Hubbs]

Oldfan makes an interesting point. If we moved the pocket more, that in itself would reduce pressure on Campbell because opposing defensive lines would have to worry more about containment.

[darrelgreenie]

We pretty much agree here but...

I think you are missing something here. Al Saunders told us that we became primarily a zone blocking team in 2006. We do a lot of it. However, despite Denver's gaudy numbers, produced by lots of homeruns, the scheme is flawed. Denver has been consistently weak in the redzone. So, I think a hybrid is the current weapon of choice in NFL running games.

From what i remember Saunders zone blocking looked different from a typical WCO zone blocking scheme.

And i was refering to blocking scheme from last year, which relied heavily on a traditional FB lead (I-form) rushing attack.

When I think zone blocking i think of a 1 cut and go zone read type running game when i think of WCO.

Most good zone blocking lines are young and agile our current line isn't.

Denver's line typically produces 1,000 yard rushers with ease and last year Cutler wasn't sacked much despite throwing the ball a ton.

I really don't know enough about wether or not Denver's line has been weak in the redzone, but i do know that every one of their RBs was hurt last year which probably has something to do with their RZ production in the running game.

Cutler's legs allowed Shanahan to move him, which in turn made the O lines job easier.

It goes both ways imo.

Because their OL are provides a solid pocket and doesn't give up the edge Cutler can move around in the pocket.

I know its only one example, but look at the pass-pro on the 4th pass from this clip:

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-h...ler-highlights

imo- The ® side OL mauls Oaklands DL knocking some of them to the ground! Great blocking for a pass play when the OL is practically pushing the DL back! Cutler has a nice clean pocket to move around and step up to make the throw

Without Cutler throwing the long ball to him, look for Royal's production to dip this season. We will also find out if Marshall can run precise routes

I think that Royals production will slip for 2 reasons:

1) like you said Cutler won't be there to get him the ball

2) they'll probably run the ball more then they did last year b/c they drafted Moreno and should have healthy RB corps

[illone]

I'd love to run a Denver style offense, but I have a question:

Where are you going to get the athletic offensive line to run this offense?

I'd love to see Portis drop 15 pounds and get back to his slasher style with less carries but I seriously doubt that Zorn is going to be able to turn the skins into a finesse team. These guys are all Gibbs holdovers built for running the football.

All Zorn really needs is more protection and better QB play and he can call whatever play he wants to.

[Oldfan]

Oldfan makes an interesting point. If we moved the pocket more, that in itself would reduce pressure on Campbell because opposing defensive lines would have to worry more about containment.

Yes, but to be clear, it isn't just a matter of choice for the offensive coordinator. He is limited by the capabilities of his QB. For example, Mark Brunell was adept at rolling left and throwing, but his delivery made it difficult for him to roll right and throw. So, defenses had half the problem containing him.

Ramsey on the other hand was slower afoot than Brunell, so his rollouts had to be limited to surprises, but his delivery allowed him to roll right or left and throw well.

Campbell's mechanics have been extensively remodeled, first by Saunders, then by Zorn. His Auburn mechanics made rolling left and throwing difficult, but we haven't seen him rolling left enough lately to judge what, if any, effects the changes have had on his rollouts.

[Oldfan]

...From what i remember Saunders zone blocking looked different from a typical WCO zone blocking scheme.

And i was refering to blocking scheme from last year, which relied heavily on a traditional FB lead (I-form) rushing attack.

When I think zone blocking i think of a 1 cut and go zone read type running game when i think of WCO.... Most good zone blocking lines are young and agile our current line isn't.

You have obviously done your homework, and my knowledge of the game relies mostly on an aging memory, but I think you have the wrong idea about an association between Walsh's WCO and zone blocking.

I think of the WCO as compatible with any running scheme. To me, a WCO is more about the way the passing game is used, about shorter drops and QBs throwing on rhythm.

I never heard of zone blocking until the late 90s with Terrel Davis, Tom Nalen and the Broncos. The WCO had been around for a long time before that. I think Denver's then line coach Alex Gibbs gets credit for popularizing the techniques.

My impression was that his lighter, more athletic line used more subtle blocking techniques than the bigger, power-blocking lines, but NFL players considered the cut blocking as dirty play which could cause injury.

So, when I think of zone-blocking, like you, I think of one-cut-and-go backs (Betts is even more a prototype than Portis in style) and Denver. But, I don't think of it in association with Walsh, Holmgren or the WCO.

[Warpath11]

So, when I think of zone-blocking, like you, I think of one-cut-and-go backs (Betts is even more a prototype than Portis in style) and Denver. But, I don't think of it in association with Walsh, Holmgren or the WCO.

This is the major difference between the two blocking schemes while Denver employed the one-cut-and-go, Saunders uses zone blocking but the RB needs to make a read before choosing which hole to go through. When you have an instinctive back like Portis that will only cause confusion while he is trying to make the read hence a lot of plays go for minimal gain or loss while he is dancing (making his read). I would let Portis use his natural instincts/feel to find the hole rather than slowing him down to make a read.

[darrelgreenie]

So, when I think of zone-blocking, like you, I think of one-cut-and-go backs (Betts is even more a prototype than Portis in style) and Denver. But, I don't think of it in association with Walsh, Holmgren or the WCO.

You're right, i guess i should clarify i'm not refering to a traditional Walsh WCO OL blocking scheme.

I'm refering to the current WCOs OLs like Green Bay but especially Denver and the Texans who as you mentioned had OL schemes designed by Alex Gibbs who also was also behind the Falcon's (2004) OL when they ran a WCO under Greg Knapp.

[darrelgreenie]

This is the major difference between the two blocking schemes while Denver employed the one-cut-and-go, Saunders uses zone blocking but the RB needs to make a read before choosing which hole to go through. When you have an instinctive back like Portis that will only cause confusion while he is trying to make the read hence a lot of plays go for minimal gain or loss while he is dancing (making his read). I would let Portis use his natural instincts/feel to find the hole rather than slowing him down to make a read.

You lost me, the RB in a 1 cut and go zone blocking scheme has to make a read when he decides which whole to press and when or if to cut it back.

Dancing and making a read are not the same thing.

[Art Monk Fan]

I never heard of zone blocking until the late 90s with Terrel Davis, Tom Nalen and the Broncos. The WCO had been around for a long time before that. I think Denver's then line coach Alex Gibbs gets credit for popularizing the techniques.

Alex Gibbs uses a variation of zone blocking that is his innovation, but the general technique is older. On of the key adjustments early in the Skin's Super Bowl win over the Broncos was a shift to zone blocking. The NFL Films replay of the game includes a Redskin's sideline huddle where you can hear them make the adjustment.

[Warpath11]

You lost me, the RB in a 1 cut and go zone blocking scheme has to make a read when he decides which whole to press and when or if to cut it back.

Dancing and making a read are not the same thing.

yeah i realized that but in Denver Portis was much faster through the hole becuase he didn't have a complicated read to make it was more of a feel/vision thing. Al scheme requires the RB to be more patient/disciplined in making the read hence we saw Portis get tackled in the backfield (looking like his feet got tangled up) many times, granted not his fault all the time.

[Oldfan]

Alex Gibbs uses a variation of zone blocking that is his innovation, but the general technique is older. On of the key adjustments early in the Skin's Super Bowl win over the Broncos was a shift to zone blocking. The NFL Films replay of the game includes a Redskin's sideline huddle where you can hear them make the adjustment.

You're right. Now that you mention it, I remember the adjustment in that Super Bowl.

[Reaganaut]

Finally, there's Portis. Now, we already know that Zorn's keeping the same running terminology and, presumably, most of the same running plays as last year. That's fine. What matters here is which of those plays are called, and with what frequency. We all know how dominant Portis was in Denver. Fast-developing, one-cut rushing plays that get him on the edges fit Clinton's strengths perfectly. Not only that, but they're the counterpart to the mobile pocket - all those bootlegs that Denver runs are based off of an outside play action to the other side of the field. Zorn can keep our old terminology and plays and still manage to emulate Denver by simply calling off tackle and outside stretch plays a lot more often than the Gibbs/Saunders hydra did.

Again, I realize that the odds of any of this happening are quite small, given Zorn's background. But, hell, it's the offseason, and this merits discussion - a brand new offensive braintrust needs to tackle the mystery of how to best use our players. I'm very confident that a Denver-esque system would do well, especially when it comes to Campbell. The season rides on his arm, and we'll see a lot more wins if we keep him moving, give him more time to make decisions, and focus on his best throws, not his worst.

The odds are very good on Portis and the running game. Portis lost 20 lbs this season and it has been reported widely that the team plans to use him exactly like Denver did to prolong his career and make him more compatible with the Zorn West Coast Offensive system. So... you already got your wish there. Not sure about the rolling pocket and Campbell's ability to adapt to it. He seems to play better when forced out of his shell, so maybe he'd play much better in that type of system.

[darrelgreenie]

The odds are very good on Portis and the running game. Portis lost 20 lbs this season and it has been reported widely that the team plans to use him exactly like Denver did to prolong his career and make him more compatible with the Zorn West Coast Offensive system. So... you already got your wish there. Not sure about the rolling pocket and Campbell's ability to adapt to it. He seems to play better when forced out of his shell, so maybe he'd play much better in that type of system.

I heard Portis mention that he wanted to drop some weight to get some of his break away speed back.

But, i didn't know that he dropped 20lbs, good for him.

In order for the Skins to use Portis like Denver did would mean a blocking scheme change in the OL/running game and i don't remember hearing anything about that.

Granted i think what you're saying would be great i just haven't seen any reports of Portis being used like he was in Denver to prolong his career.

So, if you have links please pass them along.

[Reaganaut]

I heard Portis mention that he wanted to drop some weight to get some of his break away speed back.

But, i didn't know that he dropped 20lbs, good for him.

In order for the Skins to use Portis like Denver did would mean a blocking scheme change in the OL/running game and i don't remember hearing anything about that.

Granted i think what you're saying would be great i just haven't seen any reports of Portis being used like he was in Denver to prolong his career.

So, if you have links please pass them along.

I am so sorry, I should have links to this. I'm not sure if it was on the radio, or in an article. I will try and remember. I can assure you that I am reporting this accurately.

A more exact quote in my mind: "The Skins are going to use Portis like he was used in Denver and he had to drop weight to get his breakaway speed back. He changed his weight for Joe Gibbs style and he thinks it took years off his career. By going back to his old weight and style with Denver it will prolong his career and give the Redskins a break away threat."

[Hubbs]

It all sounds fine and dandy, but Portis needs to show that losing the weight translates into him actually getting the speed back. I'm a bit skeptical.

[darrelgreenie]

I am so sorry, I should have links to this. I'm not sure if it was on the radio, or in an article. I will try and remember. I can assure you that I am reporting this accurately.

A more exact quote in my mind: "The Skins are going to use Portis like he was used in Denver and he had to drop weight to get his breakaway speed back. He changed his weight for Joe Gibbs style and he thinks it took years off his career. By going back to his old weight and style with Denver it will prolong his career and give the Redskins a break away threat."

Imo Clinton dropping weight is good, but it doesn't mean that the Skins are going to change their running game, although it would be nice.

If Portis does indeed drop weight he's gonna need less carries to stay healthy and i hopefully he won't gripe about fewer carries.

[darrelgreenie]

Firstly, let's look at the biggest question mark on the team and the key to either an 11-5 or 4-12 season - Jason Campbell. Thus far in his pro career, Campbell has been at his weakest when asked to drop straight back, make a quick read, and throw an accurate short ball. Holmgren and the coaches he begat over the years tend to call a bevy of those plays; obviously, the exact attacks have varied depending on the team (Holmgren's Green Bay offense featured deeper routes, largely because of Favre; Reid's first several seasons with McNabb involved getting him outside of the pocket as much as possible), but the general principle is there.

Denver, by contrast, has taken almost the exact opposite approach - Shanahan's offense is predicated upon a moving pocket and deeper throws. This type of attack plays to Campbell's strengths. While he's not quite McNabb, Campbell is an above-average dual threat, has been quite accurate when throwing on the move, and is fantastic at keeping his eyes downfield whilst buying time outside of the pocket, a trait I particularly admire (and I feel is overlooked when analyzing Jason's abilities). While Holmgren and Zorn didn't completely ignore Matt Hasselbeck's underrated mobility, not many would describe it as a prominent feature of Seattle's offense. The Broncos maximize this approach, and have refined it to a level that no other team in the league can match.

Secondly, Shanahan has historically made great use of both the two-tight end set and receiving tight ends. The Broncos don't have a lot of talent in that department right now, but most of the "Mastermind's" offenses have resulted in nice receiving numbers for at least one tight end (Shannon Sharpe, Jeb Putzier). Holmgren and his coaching offspring have struggled to develop prolific tight ends - Jeremy Stevens, L.J. Smith, Anthony Becht, and the "other" Alex Smith have all failed to live up to their expected production. Moreover, Zorn could probably count the number of times Seattle used twin tight ends over the past six years on one hand. It's just not part of their gameplan. The Seahawks have been an I-form/3-WR team for as long as he's been there. If we're going to make use of both Chris Cooley and Fred Davis, we're going to need to look elsewhere for the best way to do it. Denver would be an excellent choice.

Finally, there's Portis. Now, we already know that Zorn's keeping the same running terminology and, presumably, most of the same running plays as last year. That's fine. What matters here is which of those plays are called, and with what frequency. We all know how dominant Portis was in Denver. Fast-developing, one-cut rushing plays that get him on the edges fit Clinton's strengths perfectly. Not only that, but they're the counterpart to the mobile pocket - all those bootlegs that Denver runs are based off of an outside play action to the other side of the field. Zorn can keep our old terminology and plays and still manage to emulate Denver by simply calling off tackle and outside stretch plays a lot more often than the Gibbs/Saunders hydra did.

Again, I realize that the odds of any of this happening are quite small, given Zorn's background. But, hell, it's the offseason, and this merits discussion - a brand new offensive braintrust needs to tackle the mystery of how to best use our players. I'm very confident that a Denver-esque system would do well, especially when it comes to Campbell. The season rides on his arm, and we'll see a lot more wins if we keep him moving, give him more time to make decisions, and focus on his best throws, not his worst.

I agreed then and i agree know except we don't have to worry about Zorn incorporating some of Shanahan's concepts because we got Shanahan himself!

I still can't freakin believe it!

HTTR!