gbear Posted March 25, 2003 Share Posted March 25, 2003 Yomar, I hear you. Ultimately, a life is worth what ever is done with it. I'm not sure an Iraqi citizen will be a less good fatehr or mother than an American... or be less good at whatever gives their life value. I guess that's why I cringe when I read things like lighting up an entire population is better than losing one life. That type of thinking is what lead us out of Somalia instead of staying there. It's exactly the type of cowardice Clinton is berated for on this board all the time. That said, sometimes there are objectives that will require the loss of innocent lives. If the objectives are worth it, we can all grieve for the loss of innocent lives, but preferably only after the objective is accomplished. I guess I'm opposite many in this thread because while I wish our press would report casualties among citizens and Iraqi soldiers, I wish that from a desire to know the true cost. I don't like that being hidden. If you are going to say (like most of us do) that removing Saddam and getting rid of WMD is a worthy objective, you should atleast have the courage to acknowledge all of those who fall to accomplish the goal. Our troops losses are not the only price being paid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fansince62 Posted March 25, 2003 Share Posted March 25, 2003 for those arguiing the sanctity and equality of lives......given the tenor of other threads I have read over the years on this board...a few questions: 1) what is the ultimate moral foundation that sanctions this assertion? 2) does it apply in all cases (say.....second term abortions, for instance)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbear Posted March 25, 2003 Share Posted March 25, 2003 I guess I'll answer in the opposite order. For me, human life begins at birth or slightly before. Human life for me is not determined by a heart beat or breath, but rather by the ability to think, reason, build and communicate. It's value is determined by the decisions made in that lifetime and the comfort given. As for #1, the equality of human life is based on the refusal to be so arrogant as to believe that my life or way of life is necessarily better or more valuable than somebody elses simply because I was born in this country. That doesn't mean I won't fight to defend my life or the lives of my children even though that may mean chosing my life over another's. It does mean that when the fighting is done, I'll recognize the cost of my continued life. Just as I recognize all of the people who have died for my current way of life on previous battlefields, I'm for continueing to recognize those who sacrifice their lives for our way of life. Believe it or not, I don't think all of those who have died in the past for my way of life have died in an American Uniform. The civilians bombed during the total wars of WWI and WWII also deserve my thanks. I regret their passing as I regret the passing of the troops who have died. As for enemy soldiers, yes I value their lives less when I believe in the war. To my mind, their lives are worth less for the decision they have made. However, valueing them less does not mean valueing them not at all. Their lives hopefully had some good in them. The cost of the objective can be measured in the good in the lives of all who have died on our side, as collateral damage (I hate this euphimism), and as enemy combatants. Many objectives are still worth while, but let us not forget the enemy has family and lives outside of the war as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fansince62 Posted March 25, 2003 Share Posted March 25, 2003 gbear...i'm in a hurry so I'll have to get back to this later....but that is not the logic I was after....I'm not belittling your position because it is honest and obviously comes from the heart... when one states "all life is equal" or "war is wrong" or that "all lives have equal value" one has to ask...based on what?....it is intended as a universal moral assertion. the problem with moral universals is that there ultimately needs to be something that "sanctions" the assertion...something that gives it the quality of being an absolute. now, traditionally, the approaches to this have been either that God (or a God) ultimately sanctions , that these kinds of propositions are axiomatically true, or some notion of natural rights. my question was intended to determine the foundation from which these claims are asserted. from there it is comparatively easy to assess whether or not there is any intellectual honesty in this by examining whetehr or not the principle is applied consistently: that is the logical force of a universal moral claim. too often, when I hear folks maknig these claims, they are very selective in how they apply it...and that robs the assertion of its "imperative" force. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted March 25, 2003 Share Posted March 25, 2003 An amazing thread. An Iraqi life is the same as an American life? Sometimes I forget how pathetic we've become and it takes statements like this to remind me. For the record, an American life is more important. It is better to kill everyone else than put ONE of our people in harm's way. That we respect civilians in our recent combat actions is nice. But, in no way is there equality on the importance of protecting OUR citizens even if it comes at the expense of the citizens of another nation. Being an American is better than being anyone else. We are better than anyone else has ever been. The people who don't understand that are those who simply are lost in the wilderness of internationalism and who's thoughts actually present a danger to our society and our people. That's the saddest part. You are the types of people who'll ultimately bring down America, and apologize for what makes us better than the rest of the world. Again, don't mistake this for not respecting the view that we should limit the damage done to those who are non-combatants in this whole thing. But, if that means risking a single American life, our tactic needs to change to killing every thing we see until we are no longer at risk. We may be approaching that level of need in Iraq. Though, to be honest, I suspect we'll be done with this within a month and under 1000 lost lives and it'll be one of the greatest military actions in the history of warfare, coupled with one of the most humanely conducted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yomar Posted March 25, 2003 Share Posted March 25, 2003 Freedom and justice for all. To me thats what makes America great, and I'd never apologize for that. ---------------------------------------------------------- for those arguiing the sanctity and equality of lives......given the tenor of other threads I have read over the years on this board...a few questions: 1) what is the ultimate moral foundation that sanctions this assertion? 2) does it apply in all cases (say.....second term abortions, for instance)? 1) the ultimate moral foundation for me is probably best described as religion, even though I wouldn't claim to be a memeber of any specific denomination 2) yes, I think so Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbear Posted March 25, 2003 Share Posted March 25, 2003 Art, Have you ever heard the term "ugly American?" My sister in Germany used to talk about it as a term for Americans who are so blindly arrogant as to not understand why everybody doesn't speak English as they tour through Europe. Of course, it stands for much more, it's American arrogance. That post smells like everything that is hated about America around the world. I know you'll pass it off as jealousy, but believe it or not there is good in the world that does not orriginate in the ideals held here. As a side point, maybe we should hold off on the boast of the greatest country ever until after our country has a bit more history. We're still very young as a civilization. As it stands now with our limited history, we've certainly done some things I'm less than proud of. Fan Since 62, Your question on the origins or backround of belief in basic principles, I guess for me it comes down to a belief in value based on what is Good. For me, that's a little different than many who believe in God as preached in their church. I can't tell you how many conversations I've had with people who tell me that I need to be in church. I'm not there because I would rather spend my time doing something good, taking my fiance's god daughter out, cleaning the neighberhood, cooking for my family, seeing friends...something that makes life better. I even had a coworker ask how I could go to heaven without attending church? I replied that why would I want to go to heaven and spend eternity with a god that didn't value me DOING something more than me sitting in a big room being read to a book I've read multiple times. If I turn out to be correct, it won't be an issue and God and I can sit back with some heavnely wine and try to figure out what to do next. Of course what is good is a rather lose term that probably drives you nuts because it's not absolute. I guess of your two, I'd fall closest to natural rights, but maybe intrinsic value would be a better term. I simply believe most life has value. I also believe there are things more valuable than a single human life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheKurp Posted March 25, 2003 Share Posted March 25, 2003 Originally posted by Art An Iraqi life is the same as an American life? Sometimes I forget how pathetic we've become and it takes statements like this to remind me. For the record, an American life is more important. It is better to kill everyone else than put ONE of our people in harm's way. Well then Art, I imagine that you fully understand and appreciate the thought pattern of radical Muslims when they kill in the name of Islam. For they think just like you in judging the value of one life over another. Let's just forget religion for the moment. It is a morally bankrupt position to think that a person's life is more or less worthwhile based on his nationality. Perhaps you'd like to put your thoughts into context? I hope so, because at the moment I stand aghast at what you've just written. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted March 25, 2003 Share Posted March 25, 2003 Yomar, Did you actually quote the Pledge of Allegiance to the United States of America as support for thinking people in other countries are equal to Americans? Crazy man. Gbear, Have you ever heard the term "who gives a sh!t?". Obviously people in Germany or many other parts of the world, don't like the fact that we're better than they are. But, we are. In under 250 years we have surpassed ancient nations in all meaningful ways. The only way they can combat our superiority is to convince pathetic Americans to believe that somehow we're not better. The more success they have at convincing Americans that being an American isn't inherently better than being anything else the more rapidly they can make that a reality. I'm not going to thank you for making their job easier. I'm not going to thank you for apologizing for our superiority or our importance. I'm not going to thank you for somehow making an American life less by making it just the same as another life. You are more destructive than you can possibly know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yomar Posted March 25, 2003 Share Posted March 25, 2003 no Art, you outlined some fantastical slippery slope where I and people like me would be the downfall of America and that I and people like me would apologize for what makes America great. I simply stated what I think makes America great and that I would never apologize for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted March 25, 2003 Share Posted March 25, 2003 Originally posted by TheKurp Well then Art, I imagine that you fully understand and appreciate the thought pattern of radical Muslims when they kill in the name of Islam. For they think just like you in judging the value of one life over another. Let's just forget religion for the moment. It is a morally bankrupt position to think that a person's life is more or less worthwhile based on his nationality. Perhaps you'd like to put your thoughts into context? I hope so, because at the moment I stand aghast at what you've just written. Kurp, My thoughts are perfectly in context. An American life is more valuable than any other life. When prosecuting a war, we must take all steps necessary to ensure the safety of each American life, even if it is at the expense of the lives of others. This is why America has developed more efficient ways to kill others in such a way as to be as bloodless as possible to Americans. We matter more than them. And we must never allow ourselves forget that we must do all we can do to ensure we are not put at risk, especially when doing the job we expect a native people to be doing themselves. I'm all for limiting the death of people who have no real position in this fight. But, if the time comes that saving a single American means killing 1,000 Iraqis, we must know the proper choice is to save that American, even at the expense of 1,000 others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbear Posted March 25, 2003 Share Posted March 25, 2003 Perhaps more crazy is your dismissal of it because it is the pledge? Maybe that's just irony at work. I did say you would claim they are just jealous. I can only hope that most people can recognize the value of others living differently than we do. interestingly enough, most movements seem to go through a period where they are blind to differences. For the Catholic Church, it took until Vatican II. The lack of tolerance is every bit the fanaticism that we fight today in Iraq. The lack of ability to value others for or despite their differences is sad. To do so seems very moraaly and intellectually bankrupt. Would you value your child less if they disagreed with you? As for being of different nationalities determining the value, would you adopt a foreign child? Is that child inherently worth less than a child born here? Gasp...his/her parents might have been a different race or religion or the child might have a differnt culture. That type of intollerance wouldn't fly if applied to different people here in the States, why should it apply to people living across an imaginary line or an ocean? People are people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted March 25, 2003 Share Posted March 25, 2003 Originally posted by Yomar no Art, you outlined some fantastical slippery slope where I and people like me would be the downfall of America and that I and people like me would apologize for what makes America great. I simply stated what I think makes America great and that I would never apologize for that. One nation. Under God. With liberty and justice for all. It's not one world. Unlike Kurp's correlation to Muslim people, we aren't looking to subjugate the world under these views because we expect people in these countries to rise up and live to these goals on their own. We believe in liberty and justice for those here in this nation. And, we have had to fight amonst ourselves to ensure that. And, we've had to fight other countries who would bring harm to us. We aren't great by being just like everyone else, Yomar. We are great by being Americans. And that's what you don't seem to know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yomar Posted March 25, 2003 Share Posted March 25, 2003 ok Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codeorama Posted March 25, 2003 Share Posted March 25, 2003 Originally posted by Art But, if the time comes that saving a single American means killing 1,000 Iraqis, we must know the proper choice is to save that American, even at the expense of 1,000 others. Art, It seems to me that you pretty much blasted me a while back for saying just about the same thing you just said... what gives?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted March 25, 2003 Share Posted March 25, 2003 Originally posted by gbear Perhaps more crazy is your dismissal of it because it is the pledge? Maybe that's just irony at work. I did say you would claim they are just jealous. I can only hope that most people can recognize the value of others living differently than we do. interestingly enough, most movements seem to go through a period where they are blind to differences. For the Catholic Church, it took until Vatican II. The lack of tolerance is every bit the fanaticism that we fight today in Iraq. The lack of ability to value others for or despite their differences is sad. To do so seems very moraaly and intellectually bankrupt. Would you value your child less if they disagreed with you? As for being of different nationalities determining the value, would you adopt a foreign child? Is that child inherently worth less than a child born here? Gasp...his/her parents might have been a different race or religion or the child might have a differnt culture. That type of intollerance wouldn't fly if applied to different people here in the States, why should it apply to people living across an imaginary line or an ocean? People are people. Gbear, I dismissed Yomar's statement because he took a line from a pledge to THIS NATION and attempted to apply it to the world. As an American, we are founded on principles we expect other nations to live up to. We do not force those principles upon them. We naturally expect freedom and democracy and justice to take root and become the norm. This is why your point, and Kurp's earlier, are misplaced. We don't believe living up to this standard is something that must be forced upon others. We believe it is natural to all, and they will do it themselves. When we are brought to conflict, it is why we have punished others so severely while making all effort to protect ourselves. Because our lives are more valuable to us. And they should be to you. Pay real close attention to what we're talking about here. I'm telling you that the life of an American is greater and more important to protect than that of any other. You are telling me that that's not so. Being free is better than not. You seem to think differently. Afterall, there is good that comes from living differently. Gotcha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted March 25, 2003 Share Posted March 25, 2003 Originally posted by codeorama Art, It seems to me that you pretty much blasted me a while back for saying just about the same thing you just said... what gives?? Code, I'd be stunned if I went at you for saying anything similar. You'd have to show me what you are talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yomar Posted March 25, 2003 Share Posted March 25, 2003 Originally posted by Art I dismissed Yomar's statement because he took a line from a pledge to THIS NATION and attempted to apply it to the world. Look, this just isn't true, I've already explained this. Once again, in response to your accusation that I and people like me would apologize for what makes America great, I stated what I think makes America great and that I would never apologize for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbear Posted March 25, 2003 Share Posted March 25, 2003 Ah, so it's only freedom that gives value to life? Then why worry when a mother kills an unborn child. They obviously are physically incapable of freedom. My point is that the value of life isn't dependant on the freedom granted by their government. I can think of plenty of people overseas whose life I would value more than some truely worthless people who happened to have the good fortune to be born in this country. Would you trade a serial rapist life for Ghandi simply because the rapist happened to be born here in the US? That type of arguement is silly. The value of all human life can't be determined by simply the luck of the borders with in which one happens to be born. On a whole, I value the American soldiers life more than the Iraqi soldiers life, because his decision furthers what is good while the Iraqi's does not. That said, I won't value the life of an American soldier over thousands of Iraqi citizens unless that American soldiers life is the one necessary to rid Iraq of WMD and a dictator who will kill even more innocent civilians. As a side note, there is a practical reason for valueing the civilians as much as our troops currently. As it stands now, we've lost very few troops while advancing at a fantastic rate. So, we've managed to move towards our goals with minimal casualties. Let's say we could have avoided all of the casualties we've suffered thus far if we had been willing to just blow up more civilians and take less risks. Do you not think it likely that making no attempt at saving the civilians would have further alienated the population and caused more terrorists once we have the regions securred? How many terrorists do you think it would take after the war to kill as many Americans as we've lost thus far. There may be no way to measure, but I would direct your attention to the failures of Israel and Palestine. You miss the point. When you dismiss the pledge as a justification for valueing others, you dismiss the ideals apon which our country was founded. Here's another one for you "all men are created equal." That's not all men born in the US are created equal. I'd of course argue that the value of the life is what you chose to do with it once you are created...but that's probably another debate fror another time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarhog Posted March 25, 2003 Share Posted March 25, 2003 Originally posted by gbear Ah, so it's only freedom that gives value to life? Then why worry when a mother kills an unborn child. They obviously are physically incapable of freedom. My point is that the value of life isn't dependant on the freedom granted by their government. I can think of plenty of people overseas whose life I would value more than some truely worthless people who happened to have the good fortune to be born in this country. Would you trade a serial rapist life for Ghandi simply because the rapist happened to be born here in the US? That type of arguement is silly. The value of all human life can't be determined by simply the luck of the borders with in which one happens to be born. On a whole, I value the American soldiers life more than the Iraqi soldiers life, because his decision furthers what is good while the Iraqi's does not. That said, I won't value the life of an American soldier over thousands of Iraqi citizens unless that American soldiers life is the one necessary to rid Iraq of WMD and a dictator who will kill even more innocent civilians. As a side note, there is a practical reason for valueing the civilians as much as our troops currently. As it stands now, we've lost very few troops while advancing at a fantastic rate. So, we've managed to move towards our goals with minimal casualties. Let's say we could have avoided all of the casualties we've suffered thus far if we had been willing to just blow up more civilians and take less risks. Do you not think it likely that making no attempt at saving the civilians would have further alienated the population and caused more terrorists once we have the regions securred? How many terrorists do you think it would take after the war to kill as many Americans as we've lost thus far. There may be no way to measure, but I would direct your attention to the failures of Israel and Palestine. You miss the point. When you dismiss the pledge as a justification for valueing others, you dismiss the ideals apon which our country was founded. Here's another one for you "all men are created equal." That's not all men born in the US are created equal. I'd of course argue that the value of the life is what you chose to do with it once you are created...but that's probably another debate fror another time. I'll stay out of this one for the most part as I've more than stated my position. But I do think your post clearly identifies that not all life is equally valuable (as some seem to be arguing). The moral equivalency crowd would argue that YES, the life of that killer is just as precious as that of Ghandi. The problem in war is that it is not always possible to separate the 'innocent' from the 'enemy', particularly when combatants violate the Law of War by masquerading as non-combatants. I just saw video of the Iraqi's using an ambulance to rescue combatant troops from a firefight. That is a blatant violation of the rules of war and the Geneva Convention. How do you realistically identify the 'good Iraqis' from the 'evil Iraqis' on the battlefield? Sometimes you can't. And in that case, I think you have to err on the side of protecting our citizens, keeping in mind the kind of brutality and immoral behavior that led us to this point in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbear Posted March 25, 2003 Share Posted March 25, 2003 I've agreed not all life is equal (despite how we are created). I just cringe when one treats the enemy and foreign nationals like their lives have no value thus we can throw away all of their lives to protect any one of our own. For example, you don't spray an entire croud because one of them might be a sniper. If the sniper shoots, and you can identify where it comes from, you fire back. If you kill an innocent bystander too, that's regretable. It's not just ho hum atleast I got the bad guy. It's that sort of blase attitude towards the suffering and death of others that creeps me out and that much of this thread resembles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fansince62 Posted March 25, 2003 Share Posted March 25, 2003 why do we hew to a higher standard? because you can't preach a higher standard, not abide by it yourself, and expect anyone else to place any credence in it. there is sometimes a higher cost to democracy/freeedom and the implicit values of individual worth than simple self preservation.......much of our inherent moral & political philosophy was established long before we ever became a nation. now...what we hear many of the generals on TV stating is not a moral but a practical point: they are stating that if civilians are used as shields then some may have to die iot achieve the military purpose of eliminating the threat. you can stake yourself to whatevr position you choose on that one......but the larger point remains that we as a nation for a multitude of reasons (religion, international law, morality) attempt to minimize the deliberate killing of civilians during armed conflict. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDiplomat Posted March 25, 2003 Share Posted March 25, 2003 Air Sarge, Art, and any other who disagree's with me, I respect your thoughts. I just don't understand how you think an American life is more valuable than an Iraqi life. You guys need a religion. Do you think God thinks an American life is more valuable than an Iragi? NO NO NO. He doesn't and you guys do. Air Sarge, maybe you should spend more time in Church or home praising God and studying the Bible then TRYING to belittle a high-school student. If that is what your life comes down to, so be it. I'll pray for you. For you to consider killing the whole population of Iraq (22,675,617 people (July 2000 est.) than one American life you are deranged and flat out callous. And Im serious about you coming back to High-School. You would fit in great with our Freshman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awgustlab Posted March 25, 2003 Share Posted March 25, 2003 Originally posted by Champ24Bailey mabye you should spend more time in Church praising God and studying the Bible That's all I needed to hear from this guy to ignore the rest of his posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codeorama Posted March 25, 2003 Share Posted March 25, 2003 Originally posted by Art Code, I'd be stunned if I went at you for saying anything similar. You'd have to show me what you are talking about. Art, I will, but I'm at work, I emailed my self the link to the old thread, once I get home tonight, I will provide the posts and link.. If somehow, I was mistaken, I will appologize... But I'll post get back to this tonight... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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