Mike and Mike: 2 Teams with Great O-Line Play!

[Veretax]

Mike and MIke this morning were talking about how the one consistent over the last two years is that the teams that did well in the play offs had great O-line play. If you look at the pats, and the way the giants played in the play offs, I'd say that's a pretty good ingredient for success. Does anyone disagree? The question is how do we apply this logic to the Draft and FA this year? Obviously drafting a Guard is a great idea, but Rabach still has some good years, as does samuels. Thomas may be good too, Don't know about Jansen or wade. What are your guys thoughts? If we get line play like we had in years past this year, is it us in the Super Bowl instead of the Giants?

[Dick Edds]

yes we need youth on the OLine ... and we need luck that we do not lose any starters in the first week to season ending injuries.

We definitely need to upgrade at both backup guard spots, Fabini just doesn't cut it. I like the tackles we have now, if they can stay healthy. Wade and Jansen would be decent backups to Samuels and Heyer. But who knows how well Jansen will reciver and if Wade can stay healthy either.

I wouldn't mind drafting another OT as well.

[50GutCheck]

Injuries and age have helped to deplete our Offensive Line, they go hand in hand and must be rectified during the off-season.

[BillyKilmer]

I just hope Bugel stays here to coach up the next generation of Dirt Bags

[Aireskoi]

Take away the right side of any team's O line the first two weeks of the season and they will struggle.

I would be fine with Samuels, Kendall, Rabach, Thomas, and Jansen. Heyer would be a solid back up for either tackle and could take over if Jansen struggles. I do agree with bringing in a young guard or two and maybe a third one who can snap some.

I know these guys seem old, but they are not really that old for O linemen. These guys can play a while if they want to.

[Veretax]

SO here's my second question, do you guys agree with the following:

Draft a Guard/Center (Maybe start ahead of Kendall if he's ready, if not let him sit and develop)

Draft a Guard (To develop to replace Thomas)

Cut Fabini

Heyer gets a chance to compete for a starting spot in camp against Jansen

The second question, if O-line is a big deal, should we focus on that hard core, and nto worry about the D-Line at present? Because if we can get better O-Line play, and give more time to the passing game to put up more points, that takes some pressure of our Defense which can then sit on routes more and cause turnovers?

Or do you still think we need a DE/DT and/or a CB in addition to O-Line help? Since we lack a 4th Rounder, 1st - 3rd Two of those could be on DLine or at least Defense (CB and DT/DE), and one on a Guard? I really feel we need to take a Guard in the Second if a good one is still on the board. There is no guarante there will be, but maybe it would pay dividents to trade up in the 2nd round to ensure we grab the guy we want.

Thoughts?

[throwback37]

Agreed. We need to improve the O-Line, but we also need to upgrad that D-Line as well. Solid play on both sides of the line wins games!

[Aireskoi]

I would focus more on the D line because I believe in the O linemen who were injured. The D line had no injuries, but never seemed to impose their will on teams. They played well at times, not spectacular. Even with the back up O linemen, Portis had over 1200 yards and we were in the playoffs.

The Giants are a great example of what a strong D line can do for you. They will just take over games at times and even the best O line will struggle. They can out-number you, or just beat you with the front four.

We really need a LE who is a run stopper, but can generate pressure. Daniels did not get that done this year. I would look for a DT who can collapse the pocket and shoot the gaps, Griffin was not getting that done this year.

[The_cavalierman]

Our line is not nearly as good as advertised:

1. Samuels is a stud but we need to be grooming an eventual replacement

2. Kendall is a backup at this point in his career. He is also a weak run blocker. The Redskins are better off with a young mauler at LG that enjoys destroying people.

3. Rabach is solid and consistent but he gets dominated by larger defensives tackles. We need a bigger center that is strong enough to hold the point of attack.

4. Thomas is the second best lineman we have next to Samuels but we need to be grooming a replacement at RG as well.

5. Jansen was done about 2 years ago. Tackles need to be very athletic and Heyer is definitely the future at RT but he still has a lot to work on.

This upcoming draft needs to really pay attention to the lines.

[Art McDonough]

I've been preaching that it all begins up front for a very long time. But along with talent, you have to have durability, continuity, and depth, ares in which we seem to have a problem.

[Veretax]

I would focus more on the D line because I believe in the O linemen who were injured. The D line had no injuries, but never seemed to impose their will on teams. They played well at times, not spectacular. Even with the back up O linemen, Portis had over 1200 yards and we were in the playoffs.

The Giants are a great example of what a strong D line can do for you. They will just take over games at times and even the best O line will struggle. They can out-number you, or just beat you with the front four.

We really need a LE who is a run stopper, but can generate pressure. Daniels did not get that done this year. I would look for a DT who can collapse the pocket and shoot the gaps, Griffin was not getting that done this year.

Before last nights game I would have given Green Bay a slight edge in O-line play, but the Giants were able to run, and gave manning enough time to make plays. We know ho inconsistent Eli Can be, so to me I'm wondering if an investment on O-Line could pay dividends long term faster than D-Line. I still think we need a Stud DT or DE, but I think our 2nd pick should be at Guard. The giants have no true DTs on their roster too so their line is unusual, and we handled them pretty well with our banged up O-line too.

Our line is not nearly as good as advertised:

1. Samuels is a stud but we need to be grooming an eventual replacement

2. Kendall is a backup at this point in his career. He is also a weak run blocker. The Redskins are better off with a young mauler at LG that enjoys destroying people.

3. Rabach is solid and consistent but he gets dominated by larger defensives tackles. We need a bigger center that is strong enough to hold the point of attack.

4. Thomas is the second best lineman we have next to Samuels but we need to be grooming a replacement at RG as well.

5. Jansen was done about 2 years ago. Tackles need to be very athletic and Heyer is definitely the future at RT but he still has a lot to work on.

This upcoming draft needs to really pay attention to the lines.

I think if you get a better guard in Kendall's place that Rabach, doesn't get dominated quite as much. Thomas I would not give up on yet. Jansen I think may be done, and Heyer if he can beat him out should be given the slot. Question is can he beat Jansen out. If not let him strengthen up some more and go with it.

[fansince62]

Our line is not nearly as good as advertised:

1. Samuels is a stud but we need to be grooming an eventual replacement

2. Kendall is a backup at this point in his career. He is also a weak run blocker. The Redskins are better off with a young mauler at LG that enjoys destroying people.

3. Rabach is solid and consistent but he gets dominated by larger defensives tackles. We need a bigger center that is strong enough to hold the point of attack.

4. Thomas is the second best lineman we have next to Samuels but we need to be grooming a replacement at RG as well.

5. Jansen was done about 2 years ago. Tackles need to be very athletic and Heyer is definitely the future at RT but he still has a lot to work on.

This upcoming draft needs to really pay attention to the lines.

decent post.

fix one through the draft....improve the other through FA.

[Aireskoi]

If Jansen and Kendall were upgraded, the team would be better off for sure. Heyer could beat out Jansen this summer, or Jansen could be released with such a big contract. I just think we can win with our existing line when healthy, and should focus on getting the D line playing at a higher level.

I would love a high motor LE who has to be double teamed every play and still finds the ball.

[Aireskoi]

2. Kendall is a backup at this point in his career. He is also a weak run blocker. The Redskins are better off with a young mauler at LG that enjoys destroying people.

Same thing the Jets thought, and then they suffered without him. The guy can still play.

[The_cavalierman]

Before last nights game I would have given Green Bay a slight edge in O-line play, but the Giants were able to run, and gave manning enough time to make plays. We know ho inconsistent Eli Can be, so to me I'm wondering if an investment on O-Line could pay dividends long term faster than D-Line. I still think we need a Stud DT or DE, but I think our 2nd pick should be at Guard. The giants have no true DTs on their roster too so their line is unusual, and we handled them pretty well with our banged up O-line too.

I think if you get a better guard in Kendall's place that Rabach, doesn't get dominated quite as much. Thomas I would not give up on yet. Jansen I think may be done, and Heyer if he can beat him out should be given the slot. Question is can he beat Jansen out. If not let him strengthen up some more and go with it.

1. If the Skins want a quick but expensive fix at LG then Alan Faneca is the guy to get. Faneca is a pro-bowler, he is very unhappy in Pittsburgh, he is feisty and most importantly he can play.

2. I like Rabach but I've seen him physically dominated too often to believe it's Kendall's fault. The Skins would be a lot better off with a stronger center that can hold his own. Rabach is solid and consistent so this is not as big a priority as the LG position. However once the Skins square away the Guards Rabach's faults will start to stand out.

3. I think you misunderstood my comments on Thomas. Thomas is a fine pass blocker but he gets dominated on occasion by bigger tackles. I think we should be grooming someone to replace him Thomas eventually. Thomas is a stud, but we need quality depth and Fabini was horrible and should be cut immediately.

4. I am pretty certain Jansen is done. Jansen also carries too high of a salary to be a backup. Heyer needs to work even harder this off season but he looks like a quality starter. Wade is quality depth so Jansen's days are over IMO.

Overall the Skins need to acquire quality young depth that can learn from the starters until it is time for them to step up.

[The_cavalierman]

Same thing the Jets thought, and then they suffered without him. The guy can still play.

No doubt Kendall can play but he is more of a pass blocker (at 290 pounds) than a run blocker. The Redskins LG has to be a pulling Mauler that can own the point of attack.

Kendall is smart, experienced and feisty but he is not a balanced guard and the skins need a guy that can do both.

[darrell1106]

Same thing the Jets thought, and then they suffered without him. The guy can still play.

Agree but I do belive we need to grab a LG. Kendall is not expected to play much longer and that is an important position for a right handed QB and a running team.

[darrell1106]

No doubt Kendall can play but he is more of a pass blocker (at 290 pounds) than a run blocker. The Redskins LG has to be a pulling Mauler that can own the point of attack.

Kendall is smart, experienced and feisty but he is not a balanced guard and the skins need a guy that can do both.

I guess easier said then done. What is the average draft position for a guard, right or left? I'm not sure if we should draft one any higher then the 3rd round. Just a guess.

[Veretax]

1. If the Skins want a quick but expensive fix at LG then Alan Faneca is the guy to get. Faneca is a pro-bowler, he is very unhappy in Pittsburgh, he is feisty and most importantly he can play.

I disagree. Alan Faneca is Arch Deluxe on the Offense, I don't want him, and we do not NEED to spend an arm and a leg on a Guard that's going to retire in a few years. I'd rather Convert Jansen to Guard as do that.

2. I like Rabach but I've seen him physically dominated too often to believe it's Kendall's fault. The Skins would be a lot better off with a stronger center that can hold his own. Rabach is solid and consistent so this is not as big a priority as the LG position. However once the Skins square away the Guards Rabach's faults will start to stand out.

I'm indifferent on Rabach. I really don't think we can afford to replace him yet, due to his contract and all that, but Kendal, Thomas and Jansen are worth looking at.

3. I think you misunderstood my comments on Thomas. Thomas is a fine pass blocker but he gets dominated on occasion by bigger tackles. I think we should be grooming someone to replace him Thomas eventually. Thomas is a stud, but we need quality depth and Fabini was horrible and should be cut immediately.

No disagreement here

4. I am pretty certain Jansen is done. Jansen also carries too high of a salary to be a backup. Heyer needs to work even harder this off season but he looks like a quality starter. Wade is quality depth so Jansen's days are over IMO.

Overall the Skins need to acquire quality young depth that can learn from the starters until it is time for them to step up.

I don't know what to make about Jansen, I'd bring him back to camp, and if Heyer is much better then keep Jansen for a year, to let his cap number go down, hopefully. However, the sky is the limit here.

Same thing the Jets thought, and then they suffered without him. The guy can still play.

I'm not discounting Kendall, but the guy has 1 year left on the contract, we need someone to groom behind him if not start ahead of him in case we cannot retain him.

I guess easier said then done. What is the average draft position for a guard, right or left? I'm not sure if we should draft one any higher then the 3rd round. Just a guess.

That I don't know, but there is a lot of teams needing Guards, and there will be a run on them in the early 2nd or 3rd. Because of where we pick, unless we trade up in the 3rd, we need to draft a Guard in the 2nd, or a good one won't be there. We don't just need depth here, we need a future Starter. that's why 2nd Should be spent on a Guard (assuming we don't do it in the 1st).

[Veretax]

oops double post. delete or ignore please.

[WhoRUSupposed2Be]

Our line is not nearly as good as advertised:

1. Samuels is a stud but we need to be grooming an eventual replacement

2. Kendall is a backup at this point in his career. He is also a weak run blocker. The Redskins are better off with a young mauler at LG that enjoys destroying people.

3. Rabach is solid and consistent but he gets dominated by larger defensives tackles. We need a bigger center that is strong enough to hold the point of attack.

4. Thomas is the second best lineman we have next to Samuels but we need to be grooming a replacement at RG as well.

5. Jansen was done about 2 years ago. Tackles need to be very athletic and Heyer is definitely the future at RT but he still has a lot to work on.

This upcoming draft needs to really pay attention to the lines.

Cold hard facts...

[Samuels]

I've been saying it all offseason we need a stud mauler inside. We have been having problems in short yardage all year. Did you see the Pats on every short yardage went right behind Lg Logan Mankins.

I personally would trade down about 10 spots and draft Brandon Albert the LG from UVA HE IS A COMPLETE STUD. The kid is a mauler and excells out in space. I honestly liked Washington and Wilson coming off the edge on passing downs from De. Washington had to move back to LB when Rocky went down but Wilson did a good job he had 3 sacks the last 2 games. I think we need a run stuffing LDE and a penatrating passrushing DT. Thats our problem we don't push the pocket into the Qb.

Either way i would take a OG and DL in the 1st 2 rounds. If Sedrick Ellis dropped to #21 that is a no brainer.

[MEANDWARF]

We definately need OL backup. Fanbini should not be on our roster next season. I think we should keep Jansen if he reconstructs his contract.

[The_cavalierman]

The Redskins O-LINE and subsequently the entire offense struggled to find it's identity because the line makeup is pass oriented and Joe Gibbs wanted balance.

Samuels - Excellent pass blocker/Excellent Run Blocker

Kendall - Excellent Pass Blocker/Average run blocker

Rabach - Solid Pass Blocker/ Solid run blocker

Thomas - Excellent Pass blocker/ Above average run blocker

Jansen - Average pass blocker/Above average run blocker

Heyer - Above average Pass Blocker/Average run blocker

If you look at the dominant lines like the Patriots, Chargers, Jaguars and Giants they are either balanced across the board or they are dominant in the run or the pass. Jacksonville is a dominant run team while the Colts are excellent pass blockers. The Patriots and Chargers lines are balanced. The Identity of your offense has everything to do with the type of lineman you have.

Joe Gibbs wanted to run the ball more and convert more of those 3rd and 4th downs but he was trying to do it with a line that was more pass oriented thus the inconsistent results. This is also why Kendall should be replaced by a balanced LG if the Skins want more consistent results on the run. Heyer is likely to replace Jansen but Heyer really needs to work on his run blocking. He lacks the mean streak that Jansen has. If Heyer can develop a mean streak and improve his run blocking then the Skins will have a really balanced line.

Saunders knew his line was built more for the pass so his pass heavy playcalling reflected that. Joe Gibbs wanted a running game that could protect Campbell as he gained more experience and that is why the Gibbs philosophies clashed. That is also why Todd Collins thrived in the Saunders pass heavy system he had much experience with and why Jason Campbell struggled. Campbell needs a consistent running game and our line is simply not built for a consistent running attack.

:2cents:

[The_cavalierman]

I've been saying it all offseason we need a stud mauler inside. We have been having problems in short yardage all year. Did you see the Pats on every short yardage went right behind Lg Logan Mankins.

I personally would trade down about 10 spots and draft Brandon Albert the LG from UVA HE IS A COMPLETE STUD. The kid is a mauler and excells out in space. I honestly liked Washington and Wilson coming off the edge on passing downs from De. Washington had to move back to LB when Rocky went down but Wilson did a good job he had 3 sacks the last 2 games. I think we need a run stuffing LDE and a penatrating passrushing DT. Thats our problem we don't push the pocket into the Qb.

Either way i would take a OG and DL in the 1st 2 rounds. If Sedrick Ellis dropped to #21 that is a no brainer.

Mankins was destroying Chargers all game yesterday. That is the kind of LG we need. A guy that really enjoys pancaking people and gets stronger as the game goes along. It was no coincidence that the Patriots ran behind Mankins yesterday.