The 2008 offense could be very explosive

[Califan007 The Constipated]

Oh yeah, and Trent Green fumbled 11 times during his first year under Saunders...maybe HE was holding onto the ball a little too long as well since he had not grasped the system fully yet, either.

[krsone]

Having a truly strong arm means having zip on the ball when you throw a 20 out pattern, it doesn't mean that you can hurl it 80 yards down field. A weak armed QB throwing that pass into coverage has a much higher chance of having that pass picked off.

right! and the point is, if you aint bilnd, you know that collins has no problme with zippin the ball. what games have you been watching?

A QB with arm strength also doesn't have as much of a problem throwing in the wind as Collins did in New York.

????????? 30 + wind? what did eli do in that game? yo you can put any QB in that game and nobody wouldve done well. matter of fact, collins did well in that game. did you se pats game vs the bills? brady couldnt do jack. when the condidtion isbad, it happens to all of them favre against the bears. come on dude. where do people like u come from nitpicking and stuff now. crazy!

To answer your question, I've seen enough New England games to know Brady has a much stronger arm than Collins.

ok, so he aint blind. he seen many pats game. so what is so different about the passes that collins made as oppose to JC? collins is gettin it there with easy with accruacy and he is putting it where only redskins fans can get it.

And I've seen enough of Collins to know that he's a statue and possibly the slowest and least mobile quarterback other than Byron Leftwich.

ive seen enough games where JC is slow that any o line could catch and tackle his ass down. but again, youve failed to realize that being fast QB is useless if you are a traditional pocket passers. ive said this over and over again and you keep bringing it up .

[desioreo87]

Alright. The 2008 offense should be explosive regardless of whos under center.

TC is playing very well at the moment and is giving us a real shot in the playoffs.

I have to know though. Does everyone believe that if Todd Collins were playing in another offense where he had only been in it for a 1 1/2 years would he be playing this well?

Thats all i want to know.

[dfbovey]

DF. I'm not so hung up on TC but I just don't see what everybody else is seeing in JC. So stop with the TC put down and see if you can answer the question.

I wasn't aware that I was putting Todd Collins down. And I believe I did answer the question.

What did you see in John Elway or Troy Aikman's first 20 starts?

[mel25]

agree and i said to you being physically gifted doesnt make a good QB. most will tell you that being smart, knowing the system, having a quicker release, side stepping, stepping in.. makes a better QB.

again, if you read my posts, i agree but it doesnt make a better QB.

and again, for a position like QB, being phsyically gifted as oppose to being able to side step, step in, avoid rushes, have good awareness, have good field vision, being able to find open receivers, have quick realese, ...etc doesnt make you better. it doesnt make a good QB. vick aint better than brady. mcnabb aint better than manning. culpepper aint better than drew breese. it would however apply to positions like running backs, linebackers,,,, where they have to be physically in top shape as they get pysically absued all the time.

ok, so you agree wit my 2 main points. now let me take a page outa your book. answer this question: when did i say JC was good, or better than collins?

[Califan007 The Constipated]

Alright. The 2008 offense should be explosive regardless of whos under center.

TC is playing very well at the moment and is giving us a real shot in the playoffs.

I have to know though. Does everyone believe that if Todd Collins were playing in another offense where he had only been in it for a 1 1/2 years would he be playing this well?

Thats all i want to know.

No one will answer it lol...I've asked that question on two different threads, and nobody has bothered to weigh in on it. I suspect it's because it would cause them to admit to aspects of their argument that are flawed.

[Dance04]

lets not get ahead of ourselves... we were saying the same thing in 2005 about how in 2006 we would not be stopped.

[loque187]

No one will answer it lol...I've asked that question on two different threads, and nobody has bothered to weigh in on it. I suspect it's because it would cause them to admit to aspects of their argument that are flawed.

That's pretty much what I just asked a few posts up. In ANY OTHER offense, other then the one he has been groomed in for 7 years and knows like the back of his hand, I would have to say TC would not be nearly as successful as he is right now. Seriously, that is just common sense.

[dfbovey]

right! and the point is, if you aint bilnd, you know that collins has no problme with zippin the ball. what games have you been watching?

I've watched all the games, and Collins does not have the ability to put zip on the ball. He has good touch but he has a weak arm.

????????? 30 + wind? what did eli do in that game? yo you can put any QB in that game and nobody wouldve done well. matter of fact, collins did well in that game. did you se pats game vs the bills? brady couldnt do jack. when the condidtion isbad, it happens to all of them favre against the bears. come on dude. where do people like u come from nitpicking and stuff now. crazy!

Since you like to use this so much... did you actually watch the game? I did, and Eli made plenty of good throws in the wind which were dropped by his receivers. He was certainly more accurate than Collins was and it was because he could put velocity on the ball.

ive seen enough games where JC is slow that any o line could catch and tackle his ass down. but again, youve failed to realize that being fast QB is useless if you are a traditional pocket passers. ive said this over and over again and you keep bringing it up .

Are you drunk?

[Califan007 The Constipated]

lets not get ahead of ourselves... we were saying the same thing in 2005 about how in 2006 we would not be stopped.

Really :applause:...Let's just hope Collins continues his efficient play for several more weeks and hope that Campbell's learning curve has been shortened.

[krsone]

I swear this board just can't praise TC without constantly bashing JC. Can't we just all learn to APPRECIATE both of them?

JC has to be compared because its the same team and same offense and same players TC is playing with. its natural that everyone would. appreciate JC's will and willingness to win. but i dont see anything that tells me that he is gonna be good. so is taht wrong? we spent another 1st rd pick on a bust? i hope not.

TC is playing very very well.

yeah , we aint blind.

But the team as a WHOLE is playing very very well.

defense always played well. its was the offense that was lacking. JC had alot to do it. it aint a coincidence that when TC came in, the offense took off. once the offense do well and teams know that a QB has a good passing game, then they start respecting it. hence, the running game opens up because the field is opened up more. hence, o line starts looking better. also o line looks good protecting the QB because he has a quicker release and gets rid of it faster. of course, this all enables running backs, o line , receivers to all play better as well because QB position is competent and he knows what he is doing. ladies and gent, this is the same group of offensive players JC played with. notice how good TC makes his offense look good as oppose to JC? it aint rocket science.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

That's pretty much what I just asked a few posts up. In ANY OTHER offense, other then the one he has been groomed in for 7 years and knows like the back of his hand, I would have to say TC would not be nearly as successful as he is right now. Seriously, that is just common sense.

While we'll never know (or I hope we'll never know...would LOVE to make sure Collins stays with us), it wouldn't surprise me if he struggled, yeah...

[BobDigi]

Just getting the right side of our O-Line back is going to help tremendously.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

Just getting the right side of our O-Line back is going to help tremendously.

Good point...not to mention (hopefully) adding a bonafide possession receiver either thru the draft or free agency.

[krsone]

trent green comparison in his first yr wasnt great but my main point was that he aint athletic either as what OP and you and few others have pointed it out which is that JC is phsycailly more gifted. i guess i didnt use it properly. but the fact that trent was part of that offense whcih was top 5 for what 3 or 4 yrs and not being atheltic is what i was trying to get at. what made him what he was is due to the stuff i mentioned that makes up a good QB, not because he was physically gifted. you have to understand this dude. for QB, you dont need to be atheltic. you dont have to be phsyically gifted. its the other stuff that i mentioned that makes a QB. people will take that over being phsyically gifted is what you are failing to realize. its been like that for ever dude. but again, we can compare different Qbs to this and that and we can continue this debate for ever. thats is why we have to stick with what has transired. based on that JC isnt a good QB. TC is. what part of that do you not understand?

[ttr77]

A

I have to know though. Does everyone believe that if Todd Collins were playing in another offense where he had only been in it for a 1 1/2 years would he be playing this well?

Thats all i want to know.

Who cares? That is a 'what if' scenario that isn't relevant to this situation. The offense will be the same next year. And Collins will STILL be more comfortable in it.

[konstantinos64]

Everyone wants to talk about JC's fumbling when he gets hit from the blind side but TC fumbled twice in the Dallas game. TC has had the luxury of a defense that is making stop, a running game that is coming together and healthy receivers. Please stop the comparison because JC is the future. I am glad people on this board aren't our GM because they would put our whole franchise in the hands of a 36 year old quarterback.

[loque187]

JC has to be compared because its the same team and same offense and same players TC is playing with. its natural that everyone would. appreciate JC's will and willingness to win. but i dont see anything that tells me that he is gonna be good. so is taht wrong? we spent another 1st rd pick on a bust? i hope not.

yeah , we aint blind.

But the team as a WHOLE is playing very very well.

defense always played well. its was the offense that was lacking. JC had alot to do it. it aint a coincidence that when TC came in, the offense took off. once the offense do well and teams know that a QB has a good passing game, then they start respecting it. hence, the running game opens up because the field is opened up more. hence, o line starts looking better. also o line looks good protecting the QB because he has a quicker release and gets rid of it faster. of course, this all enables running backs, o line , receivers to all play better as well because QB position is competent and he knows what he is doing. ladies and gent, this is the same group of offensive players JC played with. notice how good TC makes his offense look good as oppose to JC? it aint rocket science.

1. Sure they play the same position, for the same team, under the same offense. But 1 man has about 2-3x more knowledge of the very intricate and sophsticated offense then the latter. Is it surprising that same man is having more success on the field? Hmm..fair comparision indeed.

2. Not sure why you made the "we ain't blind" comment. I obviously made that comment to show I am defending JC, however I 100% support TC with the team in his hands as of the present. I'm not a blind homer.

3. Defense has not played well all season. We started off well but have been around middle of the pack for most of the year, correct me if I am wrong. TC is indeed playing with the same players JC has played with however, he is playing with them as they have solidified. JC played with them while they were merely compensating. When JC was in the huddle O-line man were still dropping like flys every game, and the backups, backups were forced into starting roles, merely compensating for another player going down. In TC's situation those same backups backups have gotten some in-game experience and operating as a unit.

4. And yes when TC came in mid-way thru the Bear's game it was like a switch just cut on. However, I don't recall the skins down vs the Bears when JC went down. Nor do I remember us having all 3 and outs, I do however recall moving the ball. So who's to say JC would have lost that one for us? Or against NY when JC outplayed Eli the first time around, only to have the brakes put on at the half because we were up by 2 TD's? Or who's to say JC couldn't handle one of the worst secondarys in the league we had against Minny? And who's to say we STILL wouldn't have steam rolled over the boys' when JC almost beat them single handedly, when they WERE playing football? Was it JC's fault this "good" D we been playing all year gave up 4 TD's to TO?

[krsone]

Everyone wants to talk about JC's fumbling when he gets hit from the blind side but TC fumbled twice in the Dallas game.

ive said this over and over. every QB fumbles and throws INTs. they all do it. it's when they do it. untimely fumbles and more importantly, INTs. also , how a QB reacts and peforms after these turnovers.... do i have to continue?

TC has had the luxury of a defense that is making stop, a running game that is coming together and healthy receivers.

another guy that has not been watching redskins football this yr. our defense have been top notch all yr around pal. only game we really messed up on was against the pats.

Please stop the comparison because JC is the future.

JC is the future in your mind. to us with some brain dont think so. and even if we have some doubts, arent they legit? the way JC performed this yr, is it not ok to have some doubt. yo, you making it sound like JC played lights out. LOL

I am glad people on this board aren't our GM because they would put our whole franchise in the hands of a 36 year old quarterback.

that is what is basically happening right now but again, you are making it sound like we all believe that collins is the long term answer. are you on that crack man? the guy 's career is almost over. aint nobody telling anyone to make collins our long term QB. LOL

[Califan007 The Constipated]

tent green comparison in his first yr wasnt great but my maing point was that he aint athletic either as what OP and you and few others have pointed it out. i guess i didnt use it properly. but the fact that trent was part of that offense whcih was top 5 for what 3 or 4 yrs? he aint nowhere near ahteltic. what made him wht he was is due to the stuff i mentioned that makes up a good QB. its been like that for ever dude. but again, we can compare different Qbs to this and that and we can continue this debate for ever. thats is why we have to stick with what has transired. based on that JC isnt a good QB. TC is. what part of that do you not understand?

1) Your main point to me was that since Trent Green understood Saunders' system right off the bat and Campbell, in your eyes, has not, Campbell doesn't have what it takes to succeed in this system, maybe not even in the league. I proved you wrong about that beyond a shadow of a doubt, which probably explains why you suddenly went to your "main point" instead of the actual point you were attemping--and failing miserably at--with me.

2) I don't think there's a single person on this thread who has said that Saunders' system requires a QB with superior physical tools. We simply said that a QB who "gets" Saunders' system down pat like Collins apparently has AND has superior physical tools can REALLY make this offense move. Stop making straw man arguments...

3) There hasn't been one single post on here saying that the QB skills you keep harping on don't matter...so why are you arguing as if anyone has? You're arguing points nobody's making. I guess that's one way of feeling as if you've succeeded...

4) As far as Campbell and whether or not this year proves he can succeed in Al Saunders' system, I would think every stinkin' Skins fan would LOVE knowing that Trent Green did even WORSE than Campbell in HIS first year under Saunders as starter. Worse record, FAR worse TD/INT ration, just as many fumbles...the Chiefs didn't even really score more in their first 12 games under Green than the Skins scored under Campbell in his first 12 games this year (233 pts for KC, 229 pts for us).

How about we all just hope JC's mastery of Saunders' scheme mirrors Trent Greens', instead of bellowing every chance we get that it's "obvious" he never will. Jeebus.

[Redskins4ever]

Jason Campbell has proven that he can play in this league. I think the learning curve for him is to witness and learn by watching film of what Collins is doing now, and add that into his game. He has the physical attributes and he's talented.

His game can only improve. He's already topped his performance last year by having a better year this year. I'm sure he'll continue to show progress more and more as he plays.

[kingfish50]

I wasn't aware that I was putting Todd Collins down. And I believe I did answer the question.

What did you see in John Elway or Troy Aikman's first 20 starts?

Okay, I saw a lot of over throws and interceptions and fumbles and holding onto the ball to long, lol, I get it.

This is JC's 2nd year, and I know last year was only 4 games but I haven't seen any improvement from those games last year, up til his injury this year. He keeps making the same mistakes over and over again.

You still haven't answered my question, so let me put it another way. What makes JC so special?

[krsone]

1. Sure they play the same position, for the same team, under the same offense. But 1 man has about 2-3x more knowledge of the very intricate and sophsticated offense then the latter. Is it surprising that same man is having more success on the field? Hmm..fair comparision indeed.

for the last time, get off this dude. goddamn, if a so called smart QB like JC that graduated from college cant grasp all the so called 700 page system, forge about it. hell, sit JC's ass on bench for 6 yrs then already. lets get going. since that is the only way to be successful in saudners offense. LOL

2. Not sure why you made the "we ain't blind" comment. I obviously made that comment to show I am defending JC, however I 100% support TC with the team in his hands as of the present. I'm not a blind homer.

defend JC for what? his inability to win games when he has chances? or his lack or ability to mke plays and make the rest of the offense better? listen, what games have you watches? JC only impressed me in one game thi yr. that was against the lions.

3. Defense has not played well all season. We started off well but have been around middle of the pack for most of the year, correct me if I am wrong. TC is indeed playing with the same players JC has played with however, he is playing with them as they have solidified. JC played with them while they were merely compensating. When JC was in the huddle O-line man were still dropping like flys every game, and the backups, backups were forced into starting roles, merely compensating for another player going down. In TC's situation those same backups backups have gotten some in-game experience and operating as a unit.

what? JC was fortunate enough to play when taylor, carlos roger macintosh were al healty and playing......yo, let me get straight to the point. The bears game, before JC went out, it seems like same old story again. cant move the ball, 3 and outs. looked like the same lame O. JC goes out and collins comes in plays with the smae group of people JC was.You aint blind are you? we were watching the same game right? listen man, our d was always good but our O was lacking hence, we would keep getting in to close games because OUR D kept us in the game for us to have chance. But now, that our O is is better, we dont get in to close games. we win convincingly. you see where im getting at?

4. And yes when TC came in mid-way thru the Bear's game it was like a switch just cut on. However, I don't recall the skins down vs the Bears when JC went down. Nor do I remember us having all 3 and outs, I do however recall moving the ball. So who's to say JC would have lost that one for us? Or against NY when JC outplayed Eli the first time around, only to have the brakes put on at the half because we were up by 2 TD's? Or who's to say JC couldn't handle one of the worst secondarys in the league we had against Minny? And who's to say we STILL wouldn't have steam rolled over the boys' when JC almost beat them single handedly, when they WERE playing football? Was it JC's fault this "good" D we been playing all year gave up 4 TD's to TO?

read above.

[mistertim]

another guy that has not been watching redskins football this yr. our defense have been top notch all yr around pal. only game we really messed up on was against the pats.

I'll just go ahead and assume you missed the Cowboys and Philly games.

[krsone]

You still haven't answered my question, so let me put it another way. What makes JC so special?

i know it aint for me but i think JC's willingness to learn and win. i think he does want to keep improving and wants to win real bad. i mean the dude cried in the locker room! does that mean he is gonna be good. again, only going by what ive seen so far, i dont see it. nothing really special about anything he has done. i hope he proves me wrong because we did use a 1st rd pick on him and collins is obviously not the long term answer.