The 2008 offense could be very explosive

[krsone]

I'll just go ahead and assume you missed the Cowboys and Philly games.

nitpicking again. yes we gave up 4 TDs to cowboys. ill give you that.

against the eagles, dude our defense was good and yes we did mess up in the end with some poor tackling on westbrook but if our O was what it is now, what would be the output? think dude. we are avging way more than what we were avg around that time. our total pts were patheitc. its common sense dude.

you , the big picture here is that OUR O was nowhere near as good as our D man. our O had so many 3 and outs. and because of this, our D was always getting tired for being on the field too damn long. and this is another reason why our D is playing well now too. our O is good. we move the ball. no more 3 and outs. hence it keeps our D off the field enabling them to rest while our opponent's D is getting tired. you see, when O is good and we are able to move the ball, score...etc it makes everybody that much better.

that is it man. nothign else to talk abuot.

[dfbovey]

Okay, I saw a lot of over throws and interceptions and fumbles and holding onto the ball to long, lol, I get it.

This is JC's 2nd year, and I know last year was only 4 games but I haven't seen any improvement from those games last year, up til his injury this year. He keeps making the same mistakes over and over again.

You still haven't answered my question, so let me put it another way. What makes JC so special?

He's only started 20 games man. You can't judge a quarterback off of that and this is my point.

I think he has shown improvement over the past 20 games though. Look at his completion percentage first and foremost. His first 8 games were pretty bad in that regard, but guess what, he spent a lot of time working on that in the offseason and improved by a considerable margin.

What I see in Jason Campbell is a guy with incredible physical talent and the drive and work ethic to work on his faults. And that's what I think will make him special. Talent plus work ethic and drive usually equals success.

I think some of the mistakes he makes, holding on to the ball too long and throwing interceptions are typical of a young quarterback. As the game slows down for him and he sees more, understands defenses and the offense he's running... things will get better. But you can't expect that to happen overnight. That requires experience and maturity. Which is what he doesn't have YET.

[loque187]

for the last time, get off this dude. goddamn, if a so called smart QB like JC that graduated from college cant grasp all the so called 700 page system, forge about it. hell, sit JC's ass on bench for 6 yrs then already. lets get going. since that is the only way to be successful in saudners offense. LOL

Why would I get off the single biggest difference between JC and TC when you and others obviously think your comparing apples to apples? That is just not the case whether you like it or not. That is the biggest thing seperating JC and TC. KNOWLEDGE of the playbook. Once JC has that, its all upside for him. That KNOWLEDGE of the playbook is the reason we are no longer putting on the brakes when we have a lead and instead, calling more aggressive game plans.

This KNOWLEDGE is why so many people look foward to JC's continued study and work during the offseason because we look foward to the results of having a man of JC's athletic ability with the knowledge that TC possesses in this offense. That is why we don't chastize and criticize our future franchise QB, nor pass judgement after 19-20 games, who BTW, has exceeded just about everyones expectations aside from some posters here at ES.

This same KNOWLEDGE is also the reason why TC will not be going anywhere this offseason, good games or not, unless Mr. Saunders come's along for the ride because without the years of knowledge he has in this system, he is nothing more then what he has been, a career back-up. I just wish some of you fans would stop the WIN WIN WIN NOW NOW NOW attitutde and be patient and lets our hard work reap benefits in the near-future.

[mistertim]

nitpicking again. yes we gave up 4 TDs to cowboys. ill give you that.

against the eagles, dude our defense was good and yes we did mess up in the end with some poor tackling on westbrook but if our O was what it is now, what would be the output? think dude. we are avging way more than what we were avg around that time. our total pts were patheitc. its common sense dude.

you , the big picture here is that OUR O was nowhere near as good as our D man. our O had so many 3 and outs. and because of this, our D was always getting tired for being on the field too damn long. and this is another reason why our D is playing well now too. our O is good. we move the ball. no more 3 and outs. hence it keeps our D off the field enabling them to rest while our opponent's D is getting tired. you see, when O is good and we are able to move the ball, score...etc it makes everybody that much better.

that is it man. nothign else to talk abuot.

Our D against the Eagles was fine until ST went out then it was a feeding frenzy for the Eagle's O. Our O in that game was great. Campbell threw for 3 TDs and 0 INTs. How is that worse than what Collins has done in the O recently?

And the D wasn't on the field for too long in either of those games. In the Dallas game they weren't on the field long enough before TO scored to get too tired. In the Eagles game we had multiple long drives. Don't believe me? Here is the play by play.

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/playbyplay?game_id=29332&displayPage=tab_play_by_play&season=2007&week=REG10&override=true

[mel25]

one more thing before i roll out, they say steve spurrier had a great football mind, but didn't have the physical tools to succeed. no real point to that, just a lil bit of food for thought. chew on that, it's delicious.

[Chick_in_B&G]

Why do some TC backers feel they need to insult someone to make a point?

I don't want to take anything away from Todd's efficient performance, but I haven't seen anyone in this thread discuss the play of the other ten players on the offense. Besides Todd, everyone else is stepping up. The OL is gelling, CP is playing inspired, and our WR corps is almost completely healthy for practically the first time this season. The playmakers (Portis, Moss, Springs) are making plays right now, that's why we were successful in 2005.

[mel25]

Why do some TC backers feel they need to insult someone to make a point?

I don't want to take anything away from Todd's efficient performance, but I haven't seen anyone in this thread discuss the play of the other ten players on the offense. Besides Todd, everyone else is stepping up. The OL is gelling, CP is playing inspired, and our WR corps is almost completely healthy for practically the first time this season. The playmakers (Portis, Moss, Springs) are making plays right now, that's why we were successful in 2005.

exactly, its like the portis betts thing. people feel that they have to insult one to defend the other. i'm glad we have all those dudes. ok, that's really the last thing i'm sayin. mel25, out.

[SearchHorizon]

People are basically arguing about whether there should be an open competition between JC and TC in 2008 ...

No, TC is not the long term solution. But if he DOES turn out to be darn good based on the playoffs, he probably can last until 2010.

If that is the case, JC can wait. If JC can't wait, we can get a new QB, better suited for Saunders offense.

[CRobi21]

Why do some TC backers feel they need to insult someone to make a point?

I don't want to take anything away from Todd's efficient performance, but I haven't seen anyone in this thread discuss the play of the other ten players on the offense. Besides Todd, everyone else is stepping up. The OL is gelling, CP is playing inspired, and our WR corps is almost completely healthy for practically the first time this season. The playmakers (Portis, Moss, Springs) are making plays right now, that's why we were successful in 2005.

Why do we have seperation in a fanbase to start with? It's retarded. If JC started this week against Seattle, I guarantee some of you wish he would go down so Collins could come in again.

[Gigantor]

Ok, this is an honest question. I keep reading in various posts that JC is still playing his first 'real' season so his mistakes are somewhat excusable - that there is only so much 'learning' you can do from the sideline without actual game experience.

Yet, many people are also saying that he will learn a lot over the offseason and be ready to roll in '08. How can he learn so much more in the upcoming offseason that he didn't learn in the last 3 years? Why would the light suddenly 'turn on', so to speak?

:laugh: You're right, some people are just illogical.

Many also tell us that we can't judge Campbell based on his past performance because he hasn't played enough games, so we don't know what he can do. Yet go ahead and conclude that he's "the future". :doh:

[amm11387]

JC is the future obviously, but Collins is getting it done now and having his moment, in a couple years I'm sure Cambell will be one of the top QBs in the league, we'll see

[pilsburypgh]

That pretty much answers your question...

And Collins himself would probably agree that he doesn't have the physical skills that JC has...he's nowhere near as mobile or athletic, his arm strength is noticeably less that Campbells...but he makes up for it by knowing the system inside and out and by making excellent decisions. Things like arm strength and mobility can't be taught, but the mental and timing aspect of the game that Collins is excelling at definitely can be. I have no doubts whatsoever that Campbell will learn it, and we'll soon see this same offense being run in an even more explosive fashion.

Put another way: do you REALLY think Collins would have been playing this well during his third year in the league and his second season learning this system? I have no idea why some people treat Collins as if he was drafted right along with Campbell, as if they're both on the exact same learning curve. He (and the Skins offense) is benefitting from Collins' 10 years of being on the bench and his 5 years of learning Saunders' offense.

You mean accuracy cant be taught home dogg!!! Cant you see, You just dont get it, thats the number 1 talent, especially in Saunders Offense. Besides, like i said, Campbell has better abilities than Manning, even Brady, And he will never get close to those QBs!! Quit talking about abilities its all about the Win!!

[Dance04]

Many also tell us that we can't judge Campbell based on his past performance because he hasn't played enough games, so we don't know what he can do. Yet go ahead and conclude that he's "the future". :doh:

what, you don't like hypocrisy?:laugh::laugh:

[CRobi21]

You mean accuracy cant be taught home dogg!!! Cant you see, You just dont get it, thats the number 1 talent, especially in Saunders Offense. Besides, like i said, Campbell has better abilities than Manning, even Brady, And he will never get close to those QBs!! Quit talking about abilities its all about the Win!!

Accuracy comes with being comfortable within the offense. And having rythym with your WRs and TE. Our WRs were hurt all year, and JC never had a good rythym with them. Guess who hasn't been hurt all year, our TE, Cooley. And I'd say JC has looked pretty good going to him all year. But I guess you knew that.

[Siven]

Campbell can come back in '09 if Collins retires/falters.

Hopefully we re-sign Collins to start next year.

That's how I feel about it. Campbell should ride the pine. I think Collins will be good next year. It can only help Campbell to watch and absorb everything Collins does when running the offense.

[Muzzah]

Im still curious on why people say Todd Collins doesnt have as much talent as Jason Campbell? Look what TC has done for us compared to JC. I was never and will never be a Campbell fan. Collins is my hero for the 2007 season because I know damn well if JC was still playing (healthy) we MAYBE would have had 6 wins. Go Todd Collins and thanks for GETTING THE JOB DONE...that JC couldnt do.

Athletic Talent and experience/savvy are different things. JC has one, TC has the other. The latter is more important in Saunders' offense. Saying JC is more atheltically talented than TC is no big knock on TC, you dont have to be an amazing athlete to be a great QB.

Look at some of the "great" QBs. Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Joe Montana, ect. Not great and amazing atheletes but they are savvy, smart, and know what goes where and when. They are good atheletes, not great, but they know how to win.

Then on the flipside there are the great atheletes Donovan McNabb, Michael Vick, and those kinds. They attract crowds but when theyre up against a good team that takes away their main dimension they are an average QB.

[Ghost of]

KrsOne made a brilliant point earlier.

Remember in 99 when Green went down with that Harrison cheap shot to his knee?

Remember how Vermeil was crying about it.

Remember how Kurt Warner came in, the offense looked just as explosive (Trent Green Was AWESOME that preseason for the Rams) and the Rams won the Super Bowl.

All in a 'new offense.' Then Green goes to KC and they bring that over and he takes one year (Campbell had last year and the transition to this year) to get it and produces.

What draft pick were Collins and Green? Not 1st! And yet they picked it up faster. Why do people want to sacrifice next year without a competition, go down maybe the same path, when you have someone who's winning now?

Campbell has a LONG way to go to be what Trent Green was even when he was here in DC, let alone what he became for several good years.

[gkekoa]

Look at the difference in the play calling for Collins in the second half of games comparted to JC. It is very different. Look at what JC was capable of in the first half of games when he wasn't handcuffed by that playcalling and they let him play football. Before the injury game, we only trailed the Dolphins, Patriots, and perhaps one more team at the half. Look at the improvement from last year to this year for JC. I'm not saying Collins is not better in this offense for now but the future is JC.

[Ghost of]

I think it cracks me up even more that some people seem to think that Collins is the long term answer for this team based on 4 games.

Let me ask you, what did you see from John Elway in his first 20 starts in the league? Troy Aikman?

Microwave mentality. No patience at all.

QBs who come right in and tear up the league are rare. Most have to make mistakes and learn from them to progressively become better at their craft.

There are two things I want to say in response to this post.

One, could some of you PLEASE understand that we're allowed to have DOUBT. Certainly, some posters have no faith in Campbell. Others (like me) just say we should not be HANDING him anything, as he has NOT delivered ona BIg Ben level.

As for the other part. As I will demonstrate very soon (may wait until after the game, not sure) QBs in this league no longer develop like in the 70s-80s. For one, most of the good ones show clutch abilities, even if they make mistakes earlier in the game.

And most QBs in this league that are quality are closer to Brady or Big Ben than they are to Drew Brees or Aikman. I'd also argue that the Cowboys team got appreciably BETTER in talent with the Walker trade and once they got all those picks and made the right FA pickups, that might explain the talent on the team. Remember that Emmitt SMith was a rookie in 1990. Erik Williams was a rookie in 1991.

But in most situations, when a team starts winning because of a QB change, it's because one QB is better than the other and typically, they do not go back to the old one (barring injury.)

[IHOPSkins]

I just read in WP that Collins is so successful because of his internal clock and that understanding of the system. He is obviously not as talented as JC....

I am getting real tired of people throwing Collins under the Bus

If it wasn't for Collins we would not be debating the IFs of JC starting in the playoffs......WE WOULD NOT EVEN BE IN THE PLAYOFFS

When JC gives us a BETTER chance at winning games than TC has PROVEN...........then JC should play

Explosiveness?

Compare points per game before and after Collins took over (1 TD more with Collins)

[Ghost of]

Oh yeah, and Trent Green fumbled 11 times during his first year under Saunders...maybe HE was holding onto the ball a little too long as well since he had not grasped the system fully yet, either.

You threw around insults to Trent Green and krsone there, but LAST YEAR was Campbell's first year under the system.

Why do people discount the fact he had all preseason and game experience LAST YEAR?

Because it doesn't help you with the argument?

BTW, Green looked awesome in St. Louis before getting hurt and everyone associated with the team said they were pretty much expecting great things from him as well. Kurt may have had a little more moxie or what have you, so who knows, but it's not as if Green wasn't doing things with that team.

Green's SECOND year (Campbell's second is THIS year not next) he had a 92 QB rating and threw for 3600 yards, 26 TDs and 13 INTs

[Papabear]

Athletic Talent and experience/savvy are different things. JC has one, TC has the other. The latter is more important in Saunders' offense. Saying JC is more atheltically talented than TC is no big knock on TC, you dont have to be an amazing athlete to be a great QB.

Look at some of the "great" QBs. Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Joe Montana, ect. Not great and amazing atheletes but they are savvy, smart, and know what goes where and when. They are good atheletes, not great, but they know how to win.

Then on the flipside there are the great atheletes Donovan McNabb, Michael Vick, and those kinds. They attract crowds but when theyre up against a good team that takes away their main dimension they are an average QB.

So your saying that Manning, Brady, etc. are not "great," but McNabb, Ron Mexico, etc. are in fact "great" because not only do they know where the ball goes, but they can do it in style?

[IHOPSkins]

....I have to know though. Does everyone believe that if Todd Collins were playing in another offense where he had only been in it for a 1 1/2 years would he be playing this well?....

No

Answer mine....

Do you think JC goes 4-0 in the last four games of this season?

[Ghost of]

Having a truly strong arm means having zip on the ball when you throw a 20 out pattern, it doesn't mean that you can hurl it 80 yards down field. A weak armed QB throwing that pass into coverage has a much higher chance of having that pass picked off.

A QB with arm strength also doesn't have as much of a problem throwing in the wind as Collins did in New York.

To answer your question, I've seen enough New England games to know Brady has a much stronger arm than Collins. And I've seen enough of Collins to know that he's a statue and possibly the slowest and least mobile quarterback other than Byron Leftwich.

Another multi-response here:

1) The shows on TV have been talking about something specific--we're throwing those deep outs, he's getting the ball downfield. We have a higher YPA than with Jason by like 2 yards. We have more downfield plays and more plays over 30 yards in his time than yards over 30 in about 11 with Campbell. So, what was your point on that?

2) NY had a lot of drops but a lot of those were shorter passes. It's not Eli didn't set a record for incompletions and he has a good arm. Also, for people who are so forgiving of Campbell, could you cut Collins a little slack for inexperience in throwing in 45 MPH winds? Once he settled in, he did fine and AGAIN--THREW THE BALL DOWNFIELD. IF arm strength were a huge problem, he wouldn't have had 8 completions for 166 yards. (hint: that's a good YPC of 20+ )

3) Leftwich was never "Mr. Mobile" but were you aware that he had 108 and 148 yards rushing in his first two seasons, scored 4 TDs and average 3.8 and 4.2 ypc? (now, I don't know how many were kneel-downs, a couple must have been.) Campbell on the other hand--with more losing efforts and come-from-behind efforts had 107 and 185 with ypc of 4.5 and 5.1. More mobile and more of a runner than Leftwich? Certainly, but MR. Statute Leftwich somehow racked up similar yardage and stats in his first two and scored more TDs. He also showed a similar improvement as Campbell, from 50s comp pct to over 60 and more TD than INT in that second year. SECOND YEAR. Not second 'year starting.' Guess where Leftwich is now?

How many people on this board thought Leftwich was the truth after that Jacksonville game last year?

[Papabear]

I guess that depends on who you ask. If fumbles and Interceptions is what wins you games nowadays I suppose so.