Its the O-line stupid, not the QB

[SB33]

Every one, well almost every one, on this and other Skins boards are debating who should be the next Skins QB, and which receivers should we get. It doesn’t matter whether we get Bledsoe, Blake, Chandler, or even Montana. Steve Spurrier will select the QB and receivers that are best for his system. The team will be OK, only if the O-Line is very good. My concern, is that the OL as it currently exists, is a big step backward from the O-lines of the last three years. It may not be as bad as the OL was in the 1998, but it must be improved. We must get better replacements for the two or three lineman we have lost.<br /><br />Look at the Gibbs years, the Hogs. a great O-Line, was the common component during the run of championships, while 3 or 4 different QBs and running backs, and wide receivers played. The Skins won championships with Joe T and John R,, with Doug Williams and Timmy Smith!, Mark Rippen and Earnest Byner, because the Hogs controlled the line of scrimmage. A Very good O-line makes good skill players great.<br /><br />In 1999, The Skins took the NFC East, despite having a terrible defense. Andy Heck, Raymer, Jansen, Tre Johnson, and Sims came together as an OL that year. We lost to Tampa in the playoffs, because the offense could not move the ball. Why? Steven Davis was hurt and played sparingly, but a greater loss was Andy Heck. His replacement Kip Vickers, was beaten like a drum by the Tampa DE’s. We had no chance to move the ball.<br /><br />In 2000, we were 6-2 at the midpoint, without a kicker, and with Norv as head coach. The 1999 O-Line with the addition of Samuels then led the team to a 6-2 record against the heart of the schedule. Baltimore, NY Giants, Eagles, Tennessee, and Tampa Bay, et al. After that, the middle of the O-Line broke down. Keith Sims, (achilles) played on one leg, Tre Johnson was lost for the season, Raymer was already out, and his replacement Fisher (foot injury) played on one leg the last half of the season. The result 2 -6.<br /><br />Last year this team was in the tank until the O-Line was stabilized. Had they been in place at the beginning of the year, and the PIG HEADED coach played a pressure defense, we would have been in the playoffs in spite of having Jeff George and Tony Banks as our QBs. <br /><br />The offensive line we are assembling is not nearly as good as those of the last three years. They were the reason for Steven Davis getting 1300 yards and going 8-3 at the end of the season. <br /><br />Using the player ratings from the Coachscout website (thanks to Budda’s page reference) The ratings for last years line was showed them to be very good.<br /><br />POS..Player.......Rank....Score<br />.C...Cory Raymer...13..... 585.07 <br />.LG..Szott..........2......647.33<br />.RG..Coleman.......18......551.17<br />.LT..Samuels........8......664.75<br />.RT..Jansen.........4......668.27<br /><br />This year, so far we have.<br /><br />POS..Player........Rank....Score<br />.C...Moore..........33.....489.13<br />.LG..Semple.........23.....516.27<br />.RG..??.............??.....????<br />.LT. Samuels.........8......664.75<br />.RT..Jansen..........4......668.27<br /><br />This is a significant drop off in talent, in the middle of the line.<br /><br />I am still angry at the PIG HEADED coach, who didn’t draft Steve Hutchinson, but took Rod Gardner. Our O-line would be much better today had he selected Hutchinson. Here is his evaluation as a rookie last year.<br /><br />LG.. HUTCHINSON..Rank=16.. score = 568.39

[GrimReaper21]

Coachscout sucks. Jansen scored better than Samuels. And Szott is not the second best left guard in the league. Szott better than Larry Allen? Keep dreaming.

[Art]

SB33,<br /><br />I have to go with SmootSkins on this. That site is pretty worthless given the rankings of our own players last year. Szott is a fine guy, but, after essentially two years off, he was NOT the second best left guard. Moore was not a center for two years, so, why is this site ranking him there?<br /><br />Our offensive line is going to be pretty good for the type of offense we'll be running. We'll do much more spreading of the field and we need guys inside who can go man-up and prevent a heavy rush. We aren't as good a line now as we were a year ago, though most thought last year we'd be weak. Still, we are not worse off as a pass blocking line, and that's an area we will need to be better in this year as opposed to last.

[Champ24]

You had me until the part about dropping a first round pick on a guard.<br /><br />The interior line is unquestionably a concern though I think the answers lie in free agency, mid round picks and most importantly, quality coaching.

[Carlito Sway]

All you need do is look at my sig line to see that I agree with you that The Run wins games, and the OL opens holes to run through.<br /><br />Still, we have addressed The Line in the past few drafts, getting awesome bookends in Jansen and Samuels. OK, you're right, I'm concerned about the OL interior. But whom would you suggest we take THIS year? Forget last year's draft. It's over. Rod is a good wideout and we will need him for SS's offense. Think now, right? In which case, I'm sorry, but we need D Line at least as badly as O Line, if not more . . . <br /><br />In which case, where are the good guards? I don't know, I'm asking sincerely. Which picks should we use for them? That way I can keep an eye out on draft day . . . <br /><br />What about Ron Stone? So little yap these days about a FA who is a great guard, and very young. Is he just too expensive? No way around it?<br /><br />Finally, what about this new dude Semple? Any thoughts for us to digest? Much appreciated!

[JoeSkins]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Art:<br /><strong>SB33,<br /><br />I have to go with SmootSkins on this. That site is pretty worthless given the rankings of our own players last year. Szott is a fine guy, but, after essentially two years off, he was NOT the second best left guard. Moore was not a center for two years, so, why is this site ranking him there?<br /><br />Our offensive line is going to be pretty good for the type of offense we'll be running. We'll do much more spreading of the field and we need guys inside who can go man-up and prevent a heavy rush. We aren't as good a line now as we were a year ago, though most thought last year we'd be weak. Still, we are not worse off as a pass blocking line, and that's an area we will need to be better in this year as opposed to last.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ummmmmmm......Ditto.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[smile]" src="smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="tongue.gif" />

[JoeSkins]

Besides, even if we have the best O-Line in the league, a good QB is necessary too. The point is, most of us want both, but the QB himself makes more difference individually. We can get away with a less costly, less talented OL if we have a good QB. In GB, Indy, and NE, the QB's survive without great OL's. We can too. Of course we need to sure up our own offensive line, but what's the point if we don't have a QB to hide behind it?

[SB33]

Smootskins<br /><br />If this site sucks, then give me a better one that has made an attempt to give a quantitative measure of performances. <br /><br />Jansen is rated against right tackles, while Samuels is rated against left tackles. For example, RT ranking was: <br />ANDERSON Willie, TURLEY Kyle, RUNYAN Jon, JANSEN Jon, WILLIAMS James, PARKER Vaughn, MILLER Fred,<br />WADE Todd. Although I may not think that this is exactly correct, I would rate Williams over Runyan. I gives a fair assessment of which and I would agree that these are in the top 1/3 of the leagues RTs.<br /><br />Is Larry Allen still the best LG in the league? He is still one of the best, top 4 in this ranking. However, too often an O-lineman's reputation lasts longer than his actual performance. Some of the O-lineman at the Pro Bowl did not deserve to be there. <br /><br />Art<br /><br />It was my mistake, Moore's ranking was as a right guard. His ranking (number 33 for right guards)was deserved, since he lost his job to a rookie. I don't think he is an effective replacement for Raymer. Semple is not close to being as good as Szott, at left guard. If we don't get lucky and find a couple of good OLs, we could be looking at an offensive performance almost as bad as the early games last year.<br /><br />Champ<br /><br />Seattle took Hutchinson with the next pick after ours. What is wrong with picking a Guard in the mid to late first round. This year, Guarde, and Fonati(sp), are projected to be worthy taken in the mid to late first round. I would like the Skins to select the better of these, unless a some one, such as Harrington or Henderson,<br />falls to them. <br /><br />Smootylicious<br /><br />There are not many good UFA O-lineman available. Ron Stone is the most highly rated that is available, but he is too expensive.<br /><br />The UFA Centers currently not signed are Jacox(SD), Smith(JAX), Long(Tenn), Pyne(Phil), Graham(Raid), Fortin(SD), Miller(Phil), <br />Only Jacox and Smith were starters, however Miller was on the Eagles IR last year, and may be worth a look.<br /><br />The UFDA Left Guards that have not signed are Roundtree(SD), Semple(DET), Hallen(Atl),Willis(KC), and Herndon(Den). It looks like the Skins have picked Semple.<br /><br />The UFA Right Guards that have not signed are Stone(NYG), Coleman(Skin), Collins(Raid), DiNapoli(Tenn), Diaz-Infante(Den), Blaise(Det), Bobo(Rav). If Coleman is gone and Stone is too expensive, then Collins or DiNapoli are the only starters left. A better choice may be to try to fit a lesser quality tackle as a Guard, like Roman Oben, or take a chance on players comming off injuries like Tre Johnson.

[Art]

SB,<br /><br />Your mistake aside, it's really not relevant. That site is not all that accurate. I'm sure they are making their best guesses, much like people here do, but, it's not any real meaningful data.<br /><br />Moore is a better pass protector than Raymer. Raymer's real weakness, though, was in line calls. He wasn't great at identifying the proper call and the Redskins offensive line often got beaten because of such mistakes. Is Raymer a superior player overall to Moore? Certainly. Is Moore a superior pass blocker to Raymer? Certainly.<br /><br />Semple, as has been stated, is not the player Szott was, but, in pass protection he's not a great decline if any. Where both he and Moore have weakness is in the power running game. Our offensive system has changed so dramatically, it is not unfair to say these players are superior fits for us. Yes, I'd rather have Szott who I thought highly of, but, I'll take Moore and Semple, IF we get Semple, and I'll recognize what we're trying to do at the position.<br /><br />We're trying to get guys who can pass protect. With Moore we've done just that. With Semple, we may just do the same if we land him. While no one would argue Moore and Semple are better for this team with Marty as the coach, it is fair to raise the issue as it relates to Spurrier as the coach.<br /><br />These guys fit well. Just as Green and Anthony fit well in what Spurrier wants to do. On the surface neither guy may be the equal of better players, but, in the system we'll employ, both could well be the right players for the position.

[GrimReaper21]

good point on the rt rankings sb, but there is no way szott should be rated in front of larry allen. Not even close. allen benchpresses 800.

[Champ24]

SB33- I hold dropping first round picks on guards about the same as dropping them on kickers- as reaching to fix a problem that can be solved later in the draft or relatively cheaply in free agency.<br /><br />First round picks should ideally be used on positions that can change the course of a game... not at OG where mid rounders and free agents can solidify those spots under a solid OL coach.<br /><br />IMHO the Skins change the course of a game should be looking at QB, DE, DT, and possibly WR if a homerun threat is on the board and there is no value in the remaining linemen/QBs.

[Champ24]

As you can see, changing the course of a game is so important I had to put it in there twice <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" />

[NavyDave]

I disagree comparing stud Guard/Centers to kickers.<br /><br />The guard spot was/is a glaring need and we select a similar WR to westy named gardner who may not be in S doubles plans while it made more sense to take Hutchinson using hindsight it would have been cheaper to draft Hutch and try Skaggs, D Mac across from Westy and actually throwing the ball to westy vice purposely phasing him out.<br /><br />We'd have 3 O Line positions filled for the next 4 years if we do the smart thing and extend Jansen this year with the quickness.

[GSF]

I don't know anything about coachscout, but I agree with sb33 that the o-line is not looking real good as of right now. I would like to see more talent and depth and think the Skins should make that a high priority only second to d-line. The Skins won superbowls with great o-lines and mediocre qb's. The Skins,Cowboys, and Broncos all had great o-lines when they were winning superbowls.<br /> Joeskins,<br /> I disagree with your point about G.B, Indy, and N.E. All of those great QB's have had there share of problems over the last few years, and they all had their problems when the O-line was struggling. Manning and Favre were throwing pics left and right, and Bledsoe took a beating. What good is a star QB if he isn't protected? If we get Blake( I hope we do, but I doubt it) he'll be out injured by week 5 if he doesn't have good protection.

[bulldog]

the truth is you need both a good line and a good quarterback. but a superior quarterback like Favre doesn't need pro bowlers in front of him, he needs solid players with some toughness and the willingness to compete.<br /><br />unfortunately, here, even with a good line in front of him and a solid running game, Tony Banks still couldn't seem to convert a third down or call an audible without burning a timeout. <br /><br />You simply can't take quarterbacks off the waiver wire, throw them in and expect them to lead your team very far. <br /><br />When your quarterback is #12 or #13 out of 15 teams in your conference that is a sign major changes are in order.<br /><br />I would tell you that a line of Moore, Semple, Jansen, Samuels, and another veteran to me is less troubling than a quarterback trio of Wuerffel, Dameyune Craig and Sage Rosenfels <img border="0" alt="[laugh]" title="" src="graemlins/laugh.gif" /> <br /><br />I would also tell you that picking up Shane Matthews only reduces that anxiety by a very small amount, unfortunately.<br /><br />Go back and look at the NFC playoff teams. Of those to advance, look at the quarterbacks.<br /><br />Philadelphia advanced with McNabb. Green Bay with Favre and St. Louis with Warner.<br /><br />Meanwhile 13-3 Chicago didn't advance despite homefield advantage in large part due to poor quarterbacking from Miller and then Matthews.<br /><br />Tampa also failed to advance as overpaid and overhyped Brad Johnson continued to throw the ball to the Eagles, who I suppose he thought were Bucs receivers in disguise. <img border="0" alt="[laugh]" title="" src="graemlins/laugh.gif" /> <br /><br />With the offensive line, the fact remains we are ahead of where we were last year already. Last year were misidentified untested Mookie Moore as a potential starter at guard and ended up having to beg and plead for Dave Szott to come out of retirement at the end of camp. We also had Cory Raymer coming off season-ending ACL surgery and no one knew at the time if he was going to hold up over 16 games.<br /><br />we have 3 spots settled in March. Samuels is coming off a pro bowl year. Jansen is a better than average right tackle. And Moore is just 26 years old and capable of playing 3 spots on the line.<br /><br />if we make the anticipated move of acquiring Semple before the draft I don't see how you can say the team is not further ahead of where Marty had us last year.<br /><br />Remember that we started the season in 2001 by plugging in guys in Szott and Coleman that were picked up very late in the free agent period.<br /><br />The chemistry factor that is so important for line play took 5 games to materialize and the losses were mounting.<br /><br />I don't see Mendes/Spurrier allowing that to happen this time around.<br /><br />We will have a starting 5 heading into training camp and barring injury we should get in the necessary work to have them play effectively as a unit.

[fish]

SB33,<br /><br />I agree with you completely ref. the importance of the line (both lines actually). I also agree with you about Hutch. I wanted us to pick him too although I'll admit I was happy with last year's draft.<br /><br />I'm hoping Art is correct in his assessment about specified value and quality regarding our new "system". He usually is.

[Darth Tater]

While a great o-line can make an average qb great, even the hogs show you don't need to spend a lot (draft-wise) on guards and/or centers. The best guard we had was a third-rounder (albiet we did get up a first to get that choice) while the center was someone else's reject. Funny thing is, the only direct first-rounder, was probably the least productive (still good) of the line.<br /><br />From what I understand, there are several options at guard which we can have in the second, third or even fourth round.<br /><br />One thing, we have three known playmakers on d (Smoot, Bailey and Arrington). Give them a guy who can force the opposing qb to make throwing errors (via a hurry-up) and you know those guys could take it to the house.