They Are Not As Good As They Think They Are

[LoudMouth12thMan]

Been a long time since I started one of these, but I've got this sinking feeling mixed in with a little "what if" to go with it. It's comical really. We, the fans, keep making new "Looking Ahead" threads, "Beat the __________[enter team]", "It's the injuries", "It's Gibbs", "We're Going to go 6 straight, I mean 5 straight, I mean can we get in at 9-7, 8-8?", etc...

What's most entertaining to me is the fact that 75% of you were saying pre pre-season that you were okay with "growing pains." No you're not, and neither are the mediots. The sad thing is that Gibbs appears to be a great evaluator of talent/character but a piss poor sideline general in this go 'round. He's the master motivator of players who have been prepared for all of 3 games this year. They were'nt ready to play EVERY game, but they've been ready to play against the @ Eagles, @ Pokes, and Detroit. Why? Because they were good teams at the time when we played them. The first, a game we weren't going to win in Philly. The second, we were facing the best offense in the league at the time. The latter, we're going to play the mighty 9-1 Cowboys.

We "fight our guts out in this war that we're all in together." But, we don't really do that, do we? We turn the guns and tanks on one another. Friendly fire!!! Look out!!! I'm so tired of the war analogies. Its got' damn football. We have the same kind of virus running through our locker room that eats away at every crappy sports franchise. We play to the level of our opponent and below. We don't play better than they, but we will play to their level and below. At least we're consistent. Ever wonder why our O line has a brain fart in the red zone? Me too. Ever wonder why our team seems to do the same things over and over and over again? Me too. This team thinks it's good. Listen to them talk on RedskinsTV, blow the losses off, talk about the positives, and chalk it up to learning or unforeseen obstacles. You're in graduate school, you're not grade schoolers.

The most deadly poison for a player is when his ego is crushed inside but he doesn't have the jewels to say publicly that HE (not we) isn't getting it done. HE needs to say that HE isn't getting it done. They're toast emotionally, I guarantee it. They're just not that good, and I think that they realize that now. Now, I think you'll see this team blow teams out. Now, they have been served that "humble pie" that everyone loves to talk about on ESPN. I'd be surprised if you hear laughing and joking around this week at Redskins Park. If you hear it, we haven't learned a thing. Sure, football is fun, but losing sucks....at least for good teams.

HTTR

[cocojoey]

well were stuck at 5 wins and the way were going we might win 2 more games!

JOE GIBBS THE REDSKINS FANS WANT MORE PLEASE SEE TO IT!!!!

[deejaydana]

I have to agree with this and you can pin the blame on Gibbs. This team is nothing if not undisciplined. Sure we "almost won" (common refrain, no?) even with 6 turnovers but does a well coached team turn the ball over this often and make so many fundamental mistakes?

[RedskinzOwnU]

I like this thread

[F-16 CHIEF]

Exactly!!!!

[LiveStrongSkins]

I fall victim to the same thing season after season. Because someone puts on a burgundy and gold jersey, I automatically have an inflated view on what their contributions can be. For now on I am going to be a realist. We are an average team with a boat load of average to below average players. We have enough talent to compete but no where near enough to be consistently good week to week.

Moss- Inconsistent receiver. Hands are iffy. Cant go up and get a ball, his game relies too much on seperation. Above average receiver who could probably do the most damage from the slot. Should really be a #2 wideout. Moss has to put EVERYTHING he has into every route since he relies solely on racing past people. This is why he will always be nicked up.

Portis- Above average running back. Hes in that cluster of running backs that are solid and will get you 1300-1500. Doesnt stay on his feet half as well as his time in Denver. Maybe its because since he has come to DC hes been asked more so to get the tough yards instead of the homerun.

Phillip Daniels- below average DE. At this point in his career he should be a depth guy.

These are just a few examples. This whole team can be characterized as the following. We are set for a long time with good to great young talent at certain positions. However the majority of this team is the result of mishandled drafts. Outside of QB, TE, RB, S, LB we are an average to below average team. Thats just the reality. Even those positions I listed are one injury away from being terrible. We need to continue to lock up our young talent and start replacing ALOT of people with younger, hungrier players.

[CliffBattles]

we aren't as talented as most here think we are. People on this board are constantly saying we should be doing better with the players we have...but, we don't compare to the Cowboys and Giants talent (our big division competitors for the next few years).

The Cowboys are pretty much more talented than us (with current injuries) at every position on the field....yet we beat them statistically in yards, lost by less than a TD, and had the ball in there zone in a position to win.....so, you could say we barely lost.

Our "star" players turned the ball over SIX times (four of 'em deep in our territory), to a team that didn't turn it over at all, and has the best defense in the NFC....yet we almost won, and were in a position to win again.....but, again barely lost.

Maybe, we just don't have the physical talent....so, when it comes down to it, at the end of the game, the more talented team wins.

Just like the Eagles and Pats tonight.

Maybe, it is miraculous that our team is even in these battles....and the coaching (whether motivational talks, or game plans) keeps us close until the better players make better plays.

[trio]

sadly, i have known this for a long time....it doesnt change my love for the team...it does increase my frustration....

i asked this question when I called the John Riggins show a couple of weeks ago, and they really liked the point...

when Gibbs returned, did you expect to hear press conference after press conference 4 years in of him explaining how great a team X was (insert Patriots, Cowboys, Packers, etc. etc.)...or did you expect the folks on ESPN, FOXsports, etc. to be using US as the benchmark...

put bluntly....4 years into Gibbs II, raise your hand if you expected the Redskins to be the Patriots, Colts, Cowboys, etc. of the league.....I know thats why I THOUGHT Gibbs was returning...

after today we are 26-33 since his return..which means that, regardless of our record this season, we will have a losing record in his first 4 years back....that is NOT what I expected....

I think we do have a core group of players in folks like Taylor, Cooley, McIntosh, Campbell, Portis, Landry, etc....I am VERY concerned that this core is just going to be squandered....

[ReppinInTexas]

There are definitely problems in every level of the Skins organization. The fact that we are one of (maybe THE?) richest franchises in the NFL just means were willing to throw money at big names that are past their prime, or that won't work in our system at all. We mysteriously pick up a quarterback in Campbell that can definitely be classified as a "gunslinger" if used right, even though we are weighed down by a stubborn coaching staff that still wants "smashmouth" football. I watched the Pats game tonight and didn't see Maroney take one snap until after halftime. The Packers have a weak running game. The Cowboys have running backs that definitely shouldn't be considered in the top tier. The point is, the game has changed since the first Gibbs era, and the NFL isn't a good place to be stubborn. It's a copy cat league, and we oughta look at whats working for these undefeated and 10-1 teams and take a hint. Beyond that, injuries killed us this year, and nobody can say that our players haven't been a let down. Moss has killed us on plenty of occasions, despite some bright moments. Portis has looked better, but had some crucial fumbles. When an interception comes our way, we act like the ball is on fire as soon as it touches our hands; we can't hold onto those to save our life. All in all, poor play calling/game planning along with sub par play adds up to the season we're looking at now, and honestly it could be MUCH worse...

[cocojoey]

This Still Doesn't Explane Why We Are 5-6 Please Joe Gibbs Just Win It For The Redskins Fans!!!!

[LoudMouth12thMan]

woh woh woh. I'm not saying that we don't have the talent. We've got the talent, but we're not a good team. That's what's wrong with these guys. They think they have a "good team." They don't, and that's the issue. Just b/c you have talent doesn't mean that you are good. Hell, every team has talent, but that and 50 cents will buy you a pack of gum.

This Still Doesn't Explane Why We Are 5-6 Please Joe Gibbs Just Win It For The Redskins Fans!!!!

Yes it does...believe me...it does. This explains why this team isn't prepared to play from week to week. You cannot be a "good team" if you can't perform the basics in the position that you play. I'm just a fan though, so what does it matter :doh:

By the way, that last comment "Please Joe Gibbs Just Win....." is the fundamental problem with us, the fans/media. It ain't Joe. It's the people on the field. Now...whether or not he get's them ready to play is another story, but ultimately the players put on the pads. :2cents:

[prufRock]

we aren't as talented as most here think we are. People on this board are constantly saying we should be doing better with the players we have...but, we don't compare to the Cowboys and Giants talent (our big division competitors for the next few years).

The Cowboys are pretty much more talented than us (with current injuries) at every position on the field....yet we beat them statistically in yards, lost by less than a TD, and had the ball in there zone in a position to win.....so, you could say we barely lost.

Our "star" players turned the ball over SIX times (four of 'em deep in our territory), to a team that didn't turn it over at all, and has the best defense in the NFC....yet we almost won, and were in a position to win again.....but, again barely lost.

Maybe, we just don't have the physical talent....so, when it comes down to it, at the end of the game, the more talented team wins.

Just like the Eagles and Pats tonight.

Maybe, it is miraculous that our team is even in these battles....and the coaching (whether motivational talks, or game plans) keeps us close until the better players make better plays.

I think it's a great point and the question has to be asked: how good are these players really? Is Chris Samuels really a dominant left tackle? Is Santana Moss a game-in, game-out deep threat that changes the way defenses play? Is Clinton Portis the kind of back who can really carry a team? Sean Taylor, Shawn Springs, Andre Carter, London Fletcher... are they great players or are they just good players who need help? I'm not expecting any one of them to win a game single-handedly, but who steps up and makes the plays when they really need it?

How is it possible that in a critical in-conference game with enormous playoff implications, two of the most visible, veteran playmakers on the team, turn the ball over 3 times in the first quarter? When the team is looking for someone to lead them into a hostile environment and produce, they practically give the game away before anyone's even broken a sweat.

It's as though the team has many good players who can produce at the NFL level and make plays from time to time, but their most important players -- the ones who should be stepping up at this time of year -- don't seem able to get the job done. I think some better preparation and communication might help them in some of those areas. I still maintain that the team lacks a true identity and that they still can't decide whether they're a physical, smashmouth team or a high-scoring offensive powerhouse. To me, that shows a lack of buy-in from the players, and a lack of cohesion amongst the coaching staff.

[PeterMP]

woh woh woh. I'm not saying that we don't have the talent. We've got the talent, but we're not a good team. That's what's wrong with these guys. They think they have a "good team." They don't, and that's the issue. Just b/c you have talent doesn't mean that you are good. Hell, every team has talent, but that and 50 cents will buy you a pack of gum.

Well, I'll go w/ some of the other people in this tread. Who on this team is a future HOF player? If CP makes it, it'll because those outrageous Denver years w/ respect to his avg. YPC, but there is nobody else you can look and say this guy is a sure HOFer and not even him.

[ziggy61]

i'll tell you what the majority of these players are, they are just like the coaches, overpaid!

the only thing they do great is spin the truth, sadly some people believe it.

[LoudMouth12thMan]

Well, I'll go w/ some of the other people in this tread. Who on this team is a future HOF player? If CP makes it, it'll because those outrageous Denver years w/ respect to his avg. YPC, but there is nobody else you can look and say this guy is a sure HOFer and not even him.

So, you have to be a HOFer to be a talented team? We have 4 or 5 young stars. How can we determine if they are HOF caliber? It's moot with regard to talent. Hell, Art Monk isn't in the HOF and neither are the Hogs. So, they weren't talented? It doesn't take HOFers to win the Super Bowl. If that was the case, we would've lost with Doug Williams, Joey T, Art Monk, Ricky Sanders, Earnest Byner, Rypien, D Green, Gary Clark, Bostic, Butz, Grimm, etc...It doesn't take HOFer's to win man.

i'll tell you what the majority of these players are, they are just like the coaches, overpaid!

the only thing they do great is spin the truth, sadly some people believe it.

That's just some naive comment that doesn't have anything to do with what I'm talking about. Hell, you probably get paid too much money for what you do. I know that I do, and so does my wife, but who are we to say that what we do isn't worth what we get paid? Gibbs isn't spinning anything. He's just not going to throw anyone under the bus publicly, and neither are his players/coaches. They don't make too much money. Snyder just pays them the money that we foolishly give to him every year..."Miller Lite Here!!!" "Yeah, I'll take one right here" "That'll be 8 dollars" Sure is entertaining ain't it? :paranoid: :laugh:

[CounterTrey]

You know what, no one on this team really takes responsibility for their actions.

I mean take this for example. I love Marcus Washington but to see him dancing today after he sacked whoever for playing QB at that time and to start dancing like a bufoon, alomost made me vomit on my TV.

I don't ahve a problem with dancing, dance all you want, but only if your ****ing winnning, not when your down at 5 -5 and being embarrased on the road. You think if the pats were 5 -5 belicheck would even allow that crap. We don't have an alpha male ont his team that says but it on my shoulders I'll carry this team and actually does on Sunday.

Gibbs can't cut it anymore, he's embarrasing himself every sunday and frankly every team looks at its head coach for strength and I don't think they see Gibbs as one to turn it around for them.

We're not very good and we will continue to suck as long as we Gibbs and Cerrato here and current structure.

[dinzelwashington]

joe gibbs is a good healer. he makes his players feel better by putting the blame on him. (thats why players like playing for him) but at the same time, he should be like mike holmgren. if u doing something wrong, let them, the players KNOW IT..santana moss.. catch the effin ball.... portis, quit turning the damn ball over.... campbell stop with the ints... get mad about it gibbs. it seems when your heated, on week days interviews, before gameday the players show up more. but after every loss.... your not... we played a hard fought game. we had some turn overs here and there..... campbell threw an intception and unfortunately it cost us the game. get mad at the loss. quit eating that humber pie. we arent winning. turn on the oven after the games.... show us a side they dont want to see...then they'll try to perform..,is the heart there? s the blood still pumpin? to me it seems like theirs not much viens after the games

[LoudMouth12thMan]

dinzel,

you don't know what's going on behind closed doors. He handles things in house and that's what all good coaches do. The last thing Gibbs is going to do is call people out or get pissed in front of the media. Gibbs may placate the team with the all in this together thing, but that's what you have to do to keep your team from heading further south.

Counter Trey,

Gibbs and his staff have brought us Cooley, Campbell, Taylor, Fletcher, Washington, Carter, Moss, Portis, RT, Rocky, etc. You're out of your tree if you think that they haven't picked up the talent. They have the talent, but those players don't seem to have the right mindset. Maybe Gibbs isn't getting them ready to play. That's what I'm saying here. They haven't been ready to play. Washington has always danced around. He can dance his ass off for all I care as long as he and the D are holding teams to 20 yards total in the second half.

[Chief skin]

8-8 if we are lucky which will be an improvement over last year. At this point all we can hope for is improving over last year

[ALLWORLD]

The state of denial that most of us live in is just that, we sit around and mock the media on how they think we suck... We do.. From top to bottom, from coaching to playcalling to players.

Coming to grips with the reality that we are a below average team (just like our record) may just release some worry.

The only thing this team is consistant at is finding a way to lose.

Good teams find ways to win, that is why we aren't winning.

[JWB]

We need an "Attitude" on the field. We play soft. Every time we drop passes, interceptions, we play right into our opponents hands. We do not make them pay for their mistakes. Moss some how has forgotten how to catch, Portis has absolutely no speed and can not out juke anyone. After watching other RBs I am not sure what he brings anymore. We have to play with Passion, determination and a Will to Win. Does anyone see that at the end of the game when the opponent scores and we constantly flub up?

[TheLongshot]

I think some fans have an overinflated view of where we should be as opposed to where we are now. Fact is, the team had a big setback last year. Gibbs knew that and the team knew that. Apparently, tho, the fans didn't know that and just expected that 2006 never happened.

We shouldn't be talking about "this isn't where we expected to be when Gibbs arrived here", because we know there has been setbacks in Gibbs' plan. A lot of players Gibbs expected to step up did not and he's had to replace them.

I do have hope in these guys because they do seem to be close to winning, which is a far cry from last year where we didn't have much hope that they could win anything. Yes, it is frustrating that they aren't finishing these games, but I do think that next year they can do something.

Jason

[Skinsinparadise]

I think we are talented and clearly can go toe to toe on the road no less against arguably the three best teams in the NFC.

The one revelation for me that I didn't start off with is:

I don't think this team has enough "gamer" winning players. They got talent but when you cut through it Clinton Portis ISN'T a winner who comes through in the big game. Santana Moss ditto.

They need more playmakers like Cooley, I argue that Randle El has it too. Its an intangible. The Skins have some stud players but aren't studs with the game on the line. As for Campbell jury is out whether he has "it" with the game on the line, he has shown flashes. I think he has it but we will see.

I do have hope in these guys because they do seem to be close to winning, which is a far cry from last year where we didn't have much hope that they could win anything. Yes, it is frustrating that they aren't finishing these games, but I do think that next year they can do something.

Jason

Agree with this. Look its not as if they are playing the best teams in the NFC and these teams are showing the Skins that they are WAY better than them, and we have miles to go to compete with them. We arguably outplayed the best teams in the NFC on the road and came a hair from beating them.

So I don't think the optimistic type fans are delusional. This team definitely shows flashes and a lot of them. Question is do they have what it takes to go the next step to get over the hump. Both the pessimists and optimists have good arguments either way.

My only disagreement is with the pessimists who imply the team is MILES away from being good. Clearly, that's not true. Did Dallas show the Skins a week ago that the Skins aren't even remotely in their league? I don't think so.

Did Favre and crew in Greenbay embarass and out play us? Clearly not. Did Tampa show why they are considered by the NFL Fox crew the third best team in the NFC and totally dominate the Skins -- nope.

Am I watching these games and thinking, gosh man we have so little talent we clearly can't compete with the better teams in the NFC. Heck no.

Are the Skins playing these games like they are one of the worst teams in the NFL. Clearly not. Do they look more like a team that is a play or two away from being an elite team. sure.

Question is do they have the horses and mindset to take that next small step. I think they have the horses, question to me is are they they right horses and do they have the right mindset. Winning is partly attitude, I wonder whether this team has that.