Enter Apotheosis Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 However, and someone correct me if I'm wrong, I don't think he had been calling plays until he got here as well. Is it a coincidence that when he started calling plays, his offense was no longer #1?Maybe he just isn't a good playcaller. Al took some criticism for scoring too quickly and leaving his defense worn out in KC... so I'd say its a safe bet that he was calling the plays there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveMason Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 I like how people keep saying Al Saunders' offenses have put up mind-boggling numbers "wherever he's coached". Seriously--"wherever"? He's only coached a great offense in KC. St Louis was Mike Martz's offense. As far as I can tell, he's only coached one good offense. Yeah, he deserves credit for that...but so what? Obviously, he's not getting the job done here. And obviously, the playcalling still sucks. Even if he's only able to pick from a limited selection that Gibbs comes up with at the beginning of the week, his calling still sucks. Also keep in mind that KC's offense, while putting up great numbers, never had the "killer instinct" that actually PUT TEAMS AWAY AND WON THE GAME. They made the playoffs only once in Vermeil/Saunders' tenure. Feel free to make excuses about how the defense was crappy, but at the end of the day, it's the offense's job to score more points than the other team--and they rarely did it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveMason Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 I like how people keep saying Al Saunders' offenses have put up mind-boggling numbers "wherever he's coached". Seriously--"wherever"? He's only coached a great offense in KC. St Louis was Mike Martz's offense. As far as I can tell, he's only coached one good offense. Yeah, he deserves credit for that...but so what? Obviously, he's not getting the job done here. And obviously, the playcalling still sucks. Even if he's only able to pick from a limited selection that Gibbs comes up with at the beginning of the week, his calling still sucks. Also keep in mind that KC's offense, while putting up great numbers, never had the "killer instinct" that actually PUT TEAMS AWAY AND WON THE GAME. They made the playoffs only once in Vermeil/Saunders' tenure. Feel free to make excuses about how the defense was crappy, but at the end of the day, it's the offense's job to score more points than the other team--and they rarely did it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rellascout Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 I like how people keep saying Al Saunders' offenses have put up mind-boggling numbers "wherever he's coached". Seriously--"wherever"? He's only coached a great offense in KC. St Louis was Mike Martz's offense. As far as I can tell, he's only coached one good offense. Yeah, he deserves credit for that...but so what? Obviously, he's not getting the job done here. And obviously, the playcalling still sucks. Even if he's only able to pick from a limited selection that Gibbs comes up with at the beginning of the week, his calling still sucks. Also keep in mind that KC's offense, while putting up great numbers, never had the "killer instinct" that actually PUT TEAMS AWAY AND WON THE GAME. They made the playoffs only once in Vermeil/Saunders' tenure. Feel free to make excuses about how the defense was crappy, but at the end of the day, it's the offense's job to score more points than the other team--and they rarely did it. You could not be more wrong. Look at the facts. Saunders would then join the St. Louis Rams coaching staff. From 1999-2000 he served as the wide receivers Coach under Dick Vermeil and later as assistant head coach under Mike Martz. During this period, the Rams won Super Bowl XXXIV in 2000. He was right there with Martz. Saunders would rejoin the Kansas City Chiefs in 2001 as the offensive coordinator when Vermeil came out of retirement. In his second stint with the Chiefs, Saunders built the NFL's top offense, which was ranked #1 in the NFL from 2002-2005. He is been involved in building two great offenses. His offense was better than the Rams with lessor WRs. Please it is not his system. It is the players not executing and Gibbs gutting his game plan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rellascout Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 I like how people keep saying Al Saunders' offenses have put up mind-boggling numbers "wherever he's coached". Seriously--"wherever"? He's only coached a great offense in KC. St Louis was Mike Martz's offense. As far as I can tell, he's only coached one good offense. Yeah, he deserves credit for that...but so what? Obviously, he's not getting the job done here. And obviously, the playcalling still sucks. Even if he's only able to pick from a limited selection that Gibbs comes up with at the beginning of the week, his calling still sucks. Also keep in mind that KC's offense, while putting up great numbers, never had the "killer instinct" that actually PUT TEAMS AWAY AND WON THE GAME. They made the playoffs only once in Vermeil/Saunders' tenure. Feel free to make excuses about how the defense was crappy, but at the end of the day, it's the offense's job to score more points than the other team--and they rarely did it. You could not be more wrong. Look at the facts. Saunders would then join the St. Louis Rams coaching staff. From 1999-2000 he served as the wide receivers Coach under Dick Vermeil and later as assistant head coach under Mike Martz. During this period, the Rams won Super Bowl XXXIV in 2000. He was right there with Martz. Saunders would rejoin the Kansas City Chiefs in 2001 as the offensive coordinator when Vermeil came out of retirement. In his second stint with the Chiefs, Saunders built the NFL's top offense, which was ranked #1 in the NFL from 2002-2005. He is been involved in building two great offenses. His offense was better than the Rams with lessor WRs. Please it is not his system. It is the players not executing and Gibbs gutting his game plan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CPortJGibbs89 Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 It's complicated. Al Saunders isn't exactly a "problem", he's a really smart Offensive Coach who up until he came here pretty much had the #1 offense in the NFL every year.However, and someone correct me if I'm wrong, I don't think he had been calling plays until he got here as well. Is it a coincidence that when he started calling plays, his offense was no longer #1? Maybe he just isn't a good playcaller. My dad told me the same thing. He said that in KC Saunders designed the plays and that Vermeil actually called them. I have no idea if this is how it really worked but thats what I have been told. Can anyone else shed some more light on this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CPortJGibbs89 Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 It's complicated. Al Saunders isn't exactly a "problem", he's a really smart Offensive Coach who up until he came here pretty much had the #1 offense in the NFL every year.However, and someone correct me if I'm wrong, I don't think he had been calling plays until he got here as well. Is it a coincidence that when he started calling plays, his offense was no longer #1? Maybe he just isn't a good playcaller. My dad told me the same thing. He said that in KC Saunders designed the plays and that Vermeil actually called them. I have no idea if this is how it really worked but thats what I have been told. Can anyone else shed some more light on this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warpath11 Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 You could not be more wrong. Look at the facts.Saunders would then join the St. Louis Rams coaching staff. From 1999-2000 he served as the wide receivers Coach under Dick Vermeil and later as assistant head coach under Mike Martz. During this period, the Rams won Super Bowl XXXIV in 2000. He was right there with Martz. Saunders would rejoin the Kansas City Chiefs in 2001 as the offensive coordinator when Vermeil came out of retirement. In his second stint with the Chiefs, Saunders built the NFL's top offense, which was ranked #1 in the NFL from 2002-2005. He is been involved in building two great offenses. His offense was better than the Rams with lessor WRs. Please it is not his system. It is the players not executing and Gibbs gutting his game plan. Bingo, not to mention his time in San Diego (in the 1980s) where he helped Dan Fouts set the bar for 300 yard games. He was young then but still involved with establishing that Air Croyell offense. After that he went on to be an assistant to Marty during KCs run in the 1990s (he left for St. Louis but came back to help Vermiel in 2000). So to say he was never invlolved in running great offenses his history would dictate otherwise. Again everywhere he went the offense was a success. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warpath11 Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 You could not be more wrong. Look at the facts.Saunders would then join the St. Louis Rams coaching staff. From 1999-2000 he served as the wide receivers Coach under Dick Vermeil and later as assistant head coach under Mike Martz. During this period, the Rams won Super Bowl XXXIV in 2000. He was right there with Martz. Saunders would rejoin the Kansas City Chiefs in 2001 as the offensive coordinator when Vermeil came out of retirement. In his second stint with the Chiefs, Saunders built the NFL's top offense, which was ranked #1 in the NFL from 2002-2005. He is been involved in building two great offenses. His offense was better than the Rams with lessor WRs. Please it is not his system. It is the players not executing and Gibbs gutting his game plan. Bingo, not to mention his time in San Diego (in the 1980s) where he helped Dan Fouts set the bar for 300 yard games. He was young then but still involved with establishing that Air Croyell offense. After that he went on to be an assistant to Marty during KCs run in the 1990s (he left for St. Louis but came back to help Vermiel in 2000). So to say he was never invlolved in running great offenses his history would dictate otherwise. Again everywhere he went the offense was a success. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveMason Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 You could not be more wrong. Look at the facts.Saunders would then join the St. Louis Rams coaching staff. From 1999-2000 he served as the wide receivers Coach under Dick Vermeil and later as assistant head coach under Mike Martz. During this period, the Rams won Super Bowl XXXIV in 2000. He was right there with Martz. Saunders would rejoin the Kansas City Chiefs in 2001 as the offensive coordinator when Vermeil came out of retirement. In his second stint with the Chiefs, Saunders built the NFL's top offense, which was ranked #1 in the NFL from 2002-2005. He is been involved in building two great offenses. His offense was better than the Rams with lessor WRs. Please it is not his system. It is the players not executing and Gibbs gutting his game plan. ......perhaps you didn't read my post. I never said his offense in Kansas City wasn't good. Obviously, it put up great numbers. But you basically re-affirmed my point about Mike Martz being the primary offensive mind behind St. Louis. Saunders was only a wide receivers coach. It's like giving Clyde Christenson("who???") the credit for the Colts' great offense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveMason Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 You could not be more wrong. Look at the facts.Saunders would then join the St. Louis Rams coaching staff. From 1999-2000 he served as the wide receivers Coach under Dick Vermeil and later as assistant head coach under Mike Martz. During this period, the Rams won Super Bowl XXXIV in 2000. He was right there with Martz. Saunders would rejoin the Kansas City Chiefs in 2001 as the offensive coordinator when Vermeil came out of retirement. In his second stint with the Chiefs, Saunders built the NFL's top offense, which was ranked #1 in the NFL from 2002-2005. He is been involved in building two great offenses. His offense was better than the Rams with lessor WRs. Please it is not his system. It is the players not executing and Gibbs gutting his game plan. ......perhaps you didn't read my post. I never said his offense in Kansas City wasn't good. Obviously, it put up great numbers. But you basically re-affirmed my point about Mike Martz being the primary offensive mind behind St. Louis. Saunders was only a wide receivers coach. It's like giving Clyde Christenson("who???") the credit for the Colts' great offense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rellascout Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 ......perhaps you didn't read my post. I never said his offense in Kansas City wasn't good. Obviously, it put up great numbers. But you basically re-affirmed my point about Mike Martz being the primary offensive mind behind St. Louis. Saunders was only a wide receivers coach. It's like giving Clyde Christenson("who???") the credit for the Colts' great offense. I read your post, so you can stop with the passive aggressive insults, you are still wrong. You are not giving him credit for his time in San Diego or St Louis. The year that St Louis went to the Super Bowl under Martz Saunders was the OC. That was not all Martz in St Louis. How many Super Bowls did Martz win after Saunders went to KC? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rellascout Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 ......perhaps you didn't read my post. I never said his offense in Kansas City wasn't good. Obviously, it put up great numbers. But you basically re-affirmed my point about Mike Martz being the primary offensive mind behind St. Louis. Saunders was only a wide receivers coach. It's like giving Clyde Christenson("who???") the credit for the Colts' great offense. I read your post, so you can stop with the passive aggressive insults, you are still wrong. You are not giving him credit for his time in San Diego or St Louis. The year that St Louis went to the Super Bowl under Martz Saunders was the OC. That was not all Martz in St Louis. How many Super Bowls did Martz win after Saunders went to KC? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Lloyd Christmas Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 Al took some criticism for scoring too quickly and leaving his defense worn out in KC... so I'd say its a safe bet that he was calling the plays there. damn i wish we had that problem! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Lloyd Christmas Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 Al took some criticism for scoring too quickly and leaving his defense worn out in KC... so I'd say its a safe bet that he was calling the plays there. damn i wish we had that problem! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clathel Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 Eddie Kennison had over 1000 yards receiving with KC in 2004 and 2005 under Saunders. Tony Gonzalez had over 900 yards receiving in 2005 and over 1200 in 2004 under Saunders. Saunders isn't the problem and neither is his playbook. As any player will tell you....it isn't how big the playbook is that matters... it is how you do the plays. By the time you get through college you have seen every play possible many times before and all you have to adjust to is what the play is called....that should not take that long. If the team doesn't "buy in" to the scheme...that is a problem of leadership on the HC's shoulders and noone else's. The HC must buy in first and show by example that he has have faith in the system. JG has never done that. For us the problem is JG. He didn't buy into the offensive scheme and has hurt the team because of it. He makes excuses like, "We dont have the personnel to play this playbook" so we have to play conservatively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clathel Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 Eddie Kennison had over 1000 yards receiving with KC in 2004 and 2005 under Saunders. Tony Gonzalez had over 900 yards receiving in 2005 and over 1200 in 2004 under Saunders. Saunders isn't the problem and neither is his playbook. As any player will tell you....it isn't how big the playbook is that matters... it is how you do the plays. By the time you get through college you have seen every play possible many times before and all you have to adjust to is what the play is called....that should not take that long. If the team doesn't "buy in" to the scheme...that is a problem of leadership on the HC's shoulders and noone else's. The HC must buy in first and show by example that he has have faith in the system. JG has never done that. For us the problem is JG. He didn't buy into the offensive scheme and has hurt the team because of it. He makes excuses like, "We dont have the personnel to play this playbook" so we have to play conservatively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uno Boss Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 riddle me this Gibbs haters..." name one GREAT KC WR during Saunder's tenure?"Everyone complaining about the conservative dink and dunk style of the skins and blaming Gibbs for it should think about that. Saunders made a living dinking and dunking in the flats to his TE and RB's. Is it a coincidence that in Saunder's second year, first year his playbook is really in effect, that we have no TD's from our WR. Perhaps Moss hasn't fallen off, and Lloyd isn't a bust, perhaps Saunders has never had a track record of utilizing his WR deep threat. I know, I know, what about about St. Louis....but wasn't that really Mike Martz? Wasn't a bulk of that offense throwing to his RB Marshall Faulk? Something to think about. I myself am optimistic about Saunders, but am sick and tired of everyone assuming that Joe is the problem. If the offense does well then Saunders is a genius, but if it stalls it must be Joe. :2cents: Classic ES mis-information being put out to prove a point.... isnt a TE not a reciever?...So why cant Al get credit for using him properly...and its not like his no name WR's didnt score... How can you say saunders never used his recievers when trent green threw 20 + TD's per season to his WR and TE's every year saunders was there..... 27 Td passes in 2002 ( gonzales 7 ) + 26 ruhsing TD's 24 TD passes in 2003 (gonzales 10) + 32 rushing TD's 24 Td passes in 2004 (Gonzales 7) + 31 rushing TD's 17 Td passes in 2005 (gonzales 2) + 26 rushing TD's All while... aside from gonzales.. Trent green was throwing to future hall of famers like...:laugh: Eddie Kenison Johnie Morton Marc Boerigter billy baber Dante hall Marvin Minnis Chris Horn Sammie parker Again you become the best in the NFL and lead the league at what you do for 5 years in a row then go some where else at the same level of competetion and just suck.... Saunders is being held hostage by ' redskins football ' a.k.a. stubborn scared Gibbs.... as it has been said before... Saunders passes to set up the run.....he is agressive by nature.... Gibbs gets up 14 and hopes the clock will start moving faster and the game can just be over...before the other team scores enough to beat us..:doh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uno Boss Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 riddle me this Gibbs haters..." name one GREAT KC WR during Saunder's tenure?"Everyone complaining about the conservative dink and dunk style of the skins and blaming Gibbs for it should think about that. Saunders made a living dinking and dunking in the flats to his TE and RB's. Is it a coincidence that in Saunder's second year, first year his playbook is really in effect, that we have no TD's from our WR. Perhaps Moss hasn't fallen off, and Lloyd isn't a bust, perhaps Saunders has never had a track record of utilizing his WR deep threat. I know, I know, what about about St. Louis....but wasn't that really Mike Martz? Wasn't a bulk of that offense throwing to his RB Marshall Faulk? Something to think about. I myself am optimistic about Saunders, but am sick and tired of everyone assuming that Joe is the problem. If the offense does well then Saunders is a genius, but if it stalls it must be Joe. :2cents: Classic ES mis-information being put out to prove a point.... isnt a TE not a reciever?...So why cant Al get credit for using him properly...and its not like his no name WR's didnt score... How can you say saunders never used his recievers when trent green threw 20 + TD's per season to his WR and TE's every year saunders was there..... 27 Td passes in 2002 ( gonzales 7 ) + 26 ruhsing TD's 24 TD passes in 2003 (gonzales 10) + 32 rushing TD's 24 Td passes in 2004 (Gonzales 7) + 31 rushing TD's 17 Td passes in 2005 (gonzales 2) + 26 rushing TD's All while... aside from gonzales.. Trent green was throwing to future hall of famers like...:laugh: Eddie Kenison Johnie Morton Marc Boerigter billy baber Dante hall Marvin Minnis Chris Horn Sammie parker Again you become the best in the NFL and lead the league at what you do for 5 years in a row then go some where else at the same level of competetion and just suck.... Saunders is being held hostage by ' redskins football ' a.k.a. stubborn scared Gibbs.... as it has been said before... Saunders passes to set up the run.....he is agressive by nature.... Gibbs gets up 14 and hopes the clock will start moving faster and the game can just be over...before the other team scores enough to beat us..:doh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveMason Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 Ok, I will admit that I don't know much about his work pre-Dick Vermeil. Still, it doesn't sound like he was THAT great. Again, he was only a wide receivers coach. Mike Martz has had success outside of Dick Vermeil. Al Saunders has not. I just don't understand why people seem to think that Al Saunders was the offensive mastermind in St Louis. rellascout, I was not trying to insult you, passive-agressively or not. My main point was that his offense, despite putting up great numbers, never seemed to result in winning games. He only made the playoffs once as KC's OC. You can blame the defense all you want, but at some point the offense has to step up and win some tough games. He never really did that. Are you sure that Al Saunder was the OC in St Louis during their superbowl win? Redskins.com says he was only the wide receivers coach for that year. He was promoted to OC(under head coach Mike Martz) afterwards. If I am wrong about this, then I will shut up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveMason Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 Ok, I will admit that I don't know much about his work pre-Dick Vermeil. Still, it doesn't sound like he was THAT great. Again, he was only a wide receivers coach. Mike Martz has had success outside of Dick Vermeil. Al Saunders has not. I just don't understand why people seem to think that Al Saunders was the offensive mastermind in St Louis. rellascout, I was not trying to insult you, passive-agressively or not. My main point was that his offense, despite putting up great numbers, never seemed to result in winning games. He only made the playoffs once as KC's OC. You can blame the defense all you want, but at some point the offense has to step up and win some tough games. He never really did that. Are you sure that Al Saunder was the OC in St Louis during their superbowl win? Redskins.com says he was only the wide receivers coach for that year. He was promoted to OC(under head coach Mike Martz) afterwards. If I am wrong about this, then I will shut up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moviedude25 Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 if saunders was calling the plays, we'd be doing much better. So your saying that SAUNDERS isn't calling the plays now?? 10 mins ago he was, last week he was, but now because you say he's not calling plays he's not? :doh: hes got a proven system Really? lets look at his players in Kansas City for this "proven system". The Chiefs had what MOST in the league considered the best Offensive line in football under Saunders. They had what MOST considered a very good expirenced QB that was very smart with the ball. They had the record breaking TE as there primary target. And they had two AMAZING running backs that were at the peaks of there careers. You think thats a great system? Its not a great system. Its a collection of great players. That's why KC never won anything with Saunders there. If his system relies on having ALL PRO players then its not a system at all. In the 1980's we had Good players in a GREAT system that won us SuperBowls and games consistantly. We didn't have ALL PRO players like the Chiefs did. We had a SYSTEM that worked no matter who was running it. I don't buy the idea of Al Saunders having a great system at all because by now it would have translated to our team and we'd have an identity. We have no identity and don't know what to do out there. He has gotten by on having GREATNESS surrounding him and now that he doesn't have any of that we get 160 total yards on Offense as a result. That sucks and so does Saunders. Al Saunders isn't building a system here, he's looking for an escape route. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moviedude25 Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 if saunders was calling the plays, we'd be doing much better. So your saying that SAUNDERS isn't calling the plays now?? 10 mins ago he was, last week he was, but now because you say he's not calling plays he's not? :doh: hes got a proven system Really? lets look at his players in Kansas City for this "proven system". The Chiefs had what MOST in the league considered the best Offensive line in football under Saunders. They had what MOST considered a very good expirenced QB that was very smart with the ball. They had the record breaking TE as there primary target. And they had two AMAZING running backs that were at the peaks of there careers. You think thats a great system? Its not a great system. Its a collection of great players. That's why KC never won anything with Saunders there. If his system relies on having ALL PRO players then its not a system at all. In the 1980's we had Good players in a GREAT system that won us SuperBowls and games consistantly. We didn't have ALL PRO players like the Chiefs did. We had a SYSTEM that worked no matter who was running it. I don't buy the idea of Al Saunders having a great system at all because by now it would have translated to our team and we'd have an identity. We have no identity and don't know what to do out there. He has gotten by on having GREATNESS surrounding him and now that he doesn't have any of that we get 160 total yards on Offense as a result. That sucks and so does Saunders. Al Saunders isn't building a system here, he's looking for an escape route. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uno Boss Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 Some Redskins fans are just plain ole dilusional... No matter how many facts you put in front of them they continue to argue against it in favor of their hero gibbs... Its sickiining... Thats not man crush thats just gay... :doh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uno Boss Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 Some Redskins fans are just plain ole dilusional... No matter how many facts you put in front of them they continue to argue against it in favor of their hero gibbs... Its sickiining... Thats not man crush thats just gay... :doh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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