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is Saunders the problem?


earl

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So your saying that SAUNDERS isn't calling the plays now?? 10 mins ago he was, last week he was, but now because you say he's not calling plays he's not? :doh:

Really? lets look at his players in Kansas City for this "proven system". The Chiefs had what MOST in the league considered the best Offensive line in football under Saunders. They had what MOST considered a very good expirenced QB that was very smart with the ball. They had the record breaking TE as there primary target. And they had two AMAZING running backs that were at the peaks of there careers.

You think thats a great system? Its not a great system. Its a collection of great players. That's why KC never won anything with Saunders there. If his system relies on having ALL PRO players then its not a system at all. In the 1980's we had Good players in a GREAT system that won us SuperBowls and games consistantly. We didn't have ALL PRO players like the Chiefs did. We had a SYSTEM that worked no matter who was running it. I don't buy the idea of Al Saunders having a great system at all because by now it would have translated to our team and we'd have an identity. We have no identity and don't know what to do out there. He has gotten by on having GREATNESS surrounding him and now that he doesn't have any of that we get 160 total yards on Offense as a result. That sucks and so does Saunders. Al Saunders isn't building a system here, he's looking for an escape route.

What have those record breaking people done since he has left?..

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So your saying that SAUNDERS isn't calling the plays now?? 10 mins ago he was, last week he was, but now because you say he's not calling plays he's not? :doh:

Really? lets look at his players in Kansas City for this "proven system". The Chiefs had what MOST in the league considered the best Offensive line in football under Saunders. They had what MOST considered a very good expirenced QB that was very smart with the ball. They had the record breaking TE as there primary target. And they had two AMAZING running backs that were at the peaks of there careers.

You think thats a great system? Its not a great system. Its a collection of great players. That's why KC never won anything with Saunders there. If his system relies on having ALL PRO players then its not a system at all. In the 1980's we had Good players in a GREAT system that won us SuperBowls and games consistantly. We didn't have ALL PRO players like the Chiefs did. We had a SYSTEM that worked no matter who was running it. I don't buy the idea of Al Saunders having a great system at all because by now it would have translated to our team and we'd have an identity. We have no identity and don't know what to do out there. He has gotten by on having GREATNESS surrounding him and now that he doesn't have any of that we get 160 total yards on Offense as a result. That sucks and so does Saunders. Al Saunders isn't building a system here, he's looking for an escape route.

What have those record breaking people done since he has left?..

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You think thats a great system? Its not a great system. Its a collection of great players. That's why KC never won anything with Saunders there. If his system relies on having ALL PRO players then its not a system at all. In the 1980's we had Good players in a GREAT system that won us SuperBowls and games consistantly. We didn't have ALL PRO players like the Chiefs did. We had a SYSTEM that worked no matter who was running it. I don't buy the idea of Al Saunders having a great system at all because by now it would have translated to our team and we'd have an identity. We have no identity and don't know what to do out there. He has gotten by on having GREATNESS surrounding him and now that he doesn't have any of that we get 160 total yards on Offense as a result. That sucks and so does Saunders. Al Saunders isn't building a system here, he's looking for an escape route.

Sorry man but you would be hard pressed to find anyone that would say, on paper, those KC teams had more talent that this Redskin team. Their Oline may have been better but not by much when our line is fully intact. He is trying to adjust his scheme to what Joe Gibbs wants (someone said it well a few posts above this one)

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You think thats a great system? Its not a great system. Its a collection of great players. That's why KC never won anything with Saunders there. If his system relies on having ALL PRO players then its not a system at all. In the 1980's we had Good players in a GREAT system that won us SuperBowls and games consistantly. We didn't have ALL PRO players like the Chiefs did. We had a SYSTEM that worked no matter who was running it. I don't buy the idea of Al Saunders having a great system at all because by now it would have translated to our team and we'd have an identity. We have no identity and don't know what to do out there. He has gotten by on having GREATNESS surrounding him and now that he doesn't have any of that we get 160 total yards on Offense as a result. That sucks and so does Saunders. Al Saunders isn't building a system here, he's looking for an escape route.

Sorry man but you would be hard pressed to find anyone that would say, on paper, those KC teams had more talent that this Redskin team. Their Oline may have been better but not by much when our line is fully intact. He is trying to adjust his scheme to what Joe Gibbs wants (someone said it well a few posts above this one)

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"Saunders would rejoin the Kansas City Chiefs in 2001 as the offensive coordinator when Vermeil came out of retirement. In his second stint with the Chiefs, Saunders built the NFL's top offense, which was ranked #1 in the NFL from 2002-2005."

#1 offense for 3 years? sounds like his system is sound. that's why we brought him in in the first place.

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"Saunders would rejoin the Kansas City Chiefs in 2001 as the offensive coordinator when Vermeil came out of retirement. In his second stint with the Chiefs, Saunders built the NFL's top offense, which was ranked #1 in the NFL from 2002-2005."

#1 offense for 3 years? sounds like his system is sound. that's why we brought him in in the first place.

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teams are dropping 8 in the box and daring us to put the ball in campbells hands but ol' joe refuses to throw the ball down field. he's rather take the safer,less rewarding conservative path.

Take last Sunday for instance.

Samuels is the only legit Olineman on the field. Darnell Dockett was blowing Fabini and Pucillo up whenever he wanted to. Hell, he nearly took the damn hand-off on a couple of running plays.

How the hell do you pass when your protection's that bad? How do you run when there's a defender waiting on you when you take the hand-off??

I guess some would rather Jason take the 7 step drop and get creamed??

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teams are dropping 8 in the box and daring us to put the ball in campbells hands but ol' joe refuses to throw the ball down field. he's rather take the safer,less rewarding conservative path.

Take last Sunday for instance.

Samuels is the only legit Olineman on the field. Darnell Dockett was blowing Fabini and Pucillo up whenever he wanted to. Hell, he nearly took the damn hand-off on a couple of running plays.

How the hell do you pass when your protection's that bad? How do you run when there's a defender waiting on you when you take the hand-off??

I guess some would rather Jason take the 7 step drop and get creamed??

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Take last Sunday for instance.

Samuels is the only legit Olineman on the field. Darnell Dockett was blowing Fabini and Pucillo up whenever he wanted to. Hell, he nearly took the damn hand-off on a couple of running plays.

How the hell do you pass when your protection's that bad? How do you run when there's a defender waiting on you when you take the hand-off??

I guess some would rather Jason take the 7 step drop and get creamed??

Do what they did quick passes and also...

Move the pocket....

In KC saunders used alot more shot gun and 3-4 wr sets than we use now...

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Take last Sunday for instance.

Samuels is the only legit Olineman on the field. Darnell Dockett was blowing Fabini and Pucillo up whenever he wanted to. Hell, he nearly took the damn hand-off on a couple of running plays.

How the hell do you pass when your protection's that bad? How do you run when there's a defender waiting on you when you take the hand-off??

I guess some would rather Jason take the 7 step drop and get creamed??

Do what they did quick passes and also...

Move the pocket....

In KC saunders used alot more shot gun and 3-4 wr sets than we use now...

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Ok, I will admit that I don't know much about his work pre-Dick Vermeil. Still, it doesn't sound like he was THAT great. Again, he was only a wide receivers coach. Mike Martz has had success outside of Dick Vermeil. Al Saunders has not. I just don't understand why people seem to think that Al Saunders was the offensive mastermind in St Louis.

rellascout, I was not trying to insult you, passive-agressively or not. My main point was that his offense, despite putting up great numbers, never seemed to result in winning games. He only made the playoffs once as KC's OC. You can blame the defense all you want, but at some point the offense has to step up and win some tough games. He never really did that.

Are you sure that Al Saunder was the OC in St Louis during their superbowl win? Redskins.com says he was only the wide receivers coach for that year. He was promoted to OC(under head coach Mike Martz) afterwards. If I am wrong about this, then I will shut up.

You are correct there but still think you are down playing his role there.

He was the OC under Martz not Vermeil. When the Rams won he was the WR coach but was the OC when they lost to the Pats.

If you watched KC football during his time there you would not blame Saunders for their loosing ways. They had no defense. None!!!!!!

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Ok, I will admit that I don't know much about his work pre-Dick Vermeil. Still, it doesn't sound like he was THAT great. Again, he was only a wide receivers coach. Mike Martz has had success outside of Dick Vermeil. Al Saunders has not. I just don't understand why people seem to think that Al Saunders was the offensive mastermind in St Louis.

rellascout, I was not trying to insult you, passive-agressively or not. My main point was that his offense, despite putting up great numbers, never seemed to result in winning games. He only made the playoffs once as KC's OC. You can blame the defense all you want, but at some point the offense has to step up and win some tough games. He never really did that.

Are you sure that Al Saunder was the OC in St Louis during their superbowl win? Redskins.com says he was only the wide receivers coach for that year. He was promoted to OC(under head coach Mike Martz) afterwards. If I am wrong about this, then I will shut up.

You are correct there but still think you are down playing his role there.

He was the OC under Martz not Vermeil. When the Rams won he was the WR coach but was the OC when they lost to the Pats.

If you watched KC football during his time there you would not blame Saunders for their loosing ways. They had no defense. None!!!!!!

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We didn't have ALL PRO players like the Chiefs did. We had a SYSTEM that worked no matter who was running it.

The reason for this was becuase it was very simple so no matter who ran it it was sucessful since it was so simple. Joe Gibbs relied on having the hogs absolutely oblitirate the opposing dline. In todays game that is imposible as everyone has talent now (due to free agency).

Bill Belichick said it best about Gibbs in the 80s

"I'm sure [Al] Saunders coming in there has had a big impact," he said. "They are a much more multiple team than the Redskins were back in the '80s when I was with the Giants, where they really only had two running plays and they didn't do a whole lot of things, they just did them very well. (from redskins.com)

That tells me the scheme was simple (so anyone could run it) and it realied on having better talent especially in the trenches.

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We didn't have ALL PRO players like the Chiefs did. We had a SYSTEM that worked no matter who was running it.

The reason for this was becuase it was very simple so no matter who ran it it was sucessful since it was so simple. Joe Gibbs relied on having the hogs absolutely oblitirate the opposing dline. In todays game that is imposible as everyone has talent now (due to free agency).

Bill Belichick said it best about Gibbs in the 80s

"I'm sure [Al] Saunders coming in there has had a big impact," he said. "They are a much more multiple team than the Redskins were back in the '80s when I was with the Giants, where they really only had two running plays and they didn't do a whole lot of things, they just did them very well. (from redskins.com)

That tells me the scheme was simple (so anyone could run it) and it realied on having better talent especially in the trenches.

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They went to the playoffs last year without him and he didn't do crap here when he arrived. That answer your question???

You can argue that it was not a good move to bring him in when we did but you cannot argue that he has not been successful.

It takes time to put in his system. The first year under Saunders has historically not been stellar. KC was middle of the pack in his first year. Second year #1.

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They went to the playoffs last year without him and he didn't do crap here when he arrived. That answer your question???

You can argue that it was not a good move to bring him in when we did but you cannot argue that he has not been successful.

It takes time to put in his system. The first year under Saunders has historically not been stellar. KC was middle of the pack in his first year. Second year #1.

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Sorry man but you would be hard pressed to find anyone that would say, on paper, those KC teams had more talent that this Redskin team. Their Oline may have been better but not by much when our line is fully intact. He is trying to adjust his scheme to what Joe Gibbs wants (someone said it well a few posts above this one)

Take off your glasses for a second and think about this.

Let me break it down for you:

Oline - Advantage Chiefs by a mile. He didn't have ProBowlers, he had 3 ALL PRO's.

QB - Trent Green then played better, made better throws, and was smarter with the ball then I've seen out of Jason Campbell. Advantage Chiefs

RB - The Priest Holmes and Larry Johnson players that were under Saunders beat the snot out of Clinton Portis and Laddell Betts all day. Advantage Chiefs but a landslide

TE - No one is better at catching TD's and gaining yards then Tony Gonzalez. Advantage Chiefs

WR's - That's a push in our direction but not by much

The players on the Kansas City teams were flat out BETTER then the players he has in Washington by a long shot. Now tell me who doesn't think this???? :doh:

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Sorry man but you would be hard pressed to find anyone that would say, on paper, those KC teams had more talent that this Redskin team. Their Oline may have been better but not by much when our line is fully intact. He is trying to adjust his scheme to what Joe Gibbs wants (someone said it well a few posts above this one)

Take off your glasses for a second and think about this.

Let me break it down for you:

Oline - Advantage Chiefs by a mile. He didn't have ProBowlers, he had 3 ALL PRO's.

QB - Trent Green then played better, made better throws, and was smarter with the ball then I've seen out of Jason Campbell. Advantage Chiefs

RB - The Priest Holmes and Larry Johnson players that were under Saunders beat the snot out of Clinton Portis and Laddell Betts all day. Advantage Chiefs but a landslide

TE - No one is better at catching TD's and gaining yards then Tony Gonzalez. Advantage Chiefs

WR's - That's a push in our direction but not by much

The players on the Kansas City teams were flat out BETTER then the players he has in Washington by a long shot. Now tell me who doesn't think this???? :doh:

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Do what they did quick passes and also...

That usually doesn't result in deep passes like the posters here are advocating for.

Move the pocket....
I agree with this and was wondering why it didn't happen. I mean this is the same coach who came up with Sprint Bomb...

Hopefully getting Rabach helps us out with the run and pass....just not this week though. :(

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Do what they did quick passes and also...

That usually doesn't result in deep passes like the posters here are advocating for.

Move the pocket....
I agree with this and was wondering why it didn't happen. I mean this is the same coach who came up with Sprint Bomb...

Hopefully getting Rabach helps us out with the run and pass....just not this week though. :(

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This offense, with Saunders being held back by Gibbs, is the same offense that Gibbs ran in year 1 and 2 of Gibbs Part II. The only difference is that Portis was putting up bigger numbers, with more carries per game.

We all thought it was Brunell. But after Campbell's 95 yard performance last week, well, it's got to be the coaches.

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This offense, with Saunders being held back by Gibbs, is the same offense that Gibbs ran in year 1 and 2 of Gibbs Part II. The only difference is that Portis was putting up bigger numbers, with more carries per game.

We all thought it was Brunell. But after Campbell's 95 yard performance last week, well, it's got to be the coaches.

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teams have been keying on our ground game and we don't have to run the ball and get that 8th man in the box because they know were gonna run.

teams are taking away the ground game and daring us to throw the ball since gibbs doesnt like young signal callers.

gibbs always preaches his run to setup the pass philosphy.funny thing is our offense can suck but they always end up making the plays to get the lead

gibbs then goes into his OMG I GOTS TO PROTECT DA LEAD MODE!!!11!!!

and when we try and run the ball on those nice 8man fronts we get stuffed,and when we throw the ball its on 3rd on long where the obvious advantage is to the defense.

it's not the players faults it's gibbs philosophy.

he needs to take a page out of the bill walsh playbook.

it's called pass to set up the run.

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