ACW Posted June 11, 2007 Share Posted June 11, 2007 MSF, you'd go back to Prohibition? We all know that worked so well, which is why it was ended, and we all know how well the War on Drugs is working :doh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mass_SkinsFan Posted June 11, 2007 Share Posted June 11, 2007 MSF, you'd go back to Prohibition? We all know that worked so well, which is why it was ended, and we all know how well the War on Drugs is working :doh: Yes, I would go back to Prohibition. I have never found any alcohol I like the taste of, and I find the feeling of being drunk (it's happened twice) is something so distasteful and debilitating it put me into a panic. Additionally, and more importantly, we (as a society) fail to properly punish people for their actions while under the influence of alcohol. I cannot find or think of a single positive to drinking alcohol. In both cases (Prohibition and the War on Drugs) this didn't/aren't work because the laws are not properly enforced, and those who break them are not sufficiently punished for breaking them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry Posted June 11, 2007 Share Posted June 11, 2007 If you want to take the "my kid would never do something like that approach", then you may just end up like other parents who have lost a child to drunk driving. Well, the choice is yours, drinking and driving happens, and although what she did was illegal, it was still a responsible thing to do if you can see the big picture in the grand scheme of things. . .I don't expect many to understand that point though. It's funny, Chom. When I was a teenager I went to a party where the mom was there was a keg and kids were falling over drunk and puking and whatnot. My first thought was "what's wrong with that mom?" Kids are going to dumb things. They are going to make mistakes. That's life. Those truths, however, should never be used as an excuse for a parent to HELP kids make those mistakes. What a kid learns from his own mistakes and irresponsibility is a LOT different than what he learns from his parent's mistakes and irresponsibility. The mom in this case didn't sit down with her kid and a can of beer with the intent of teaching responsible drinking. She didn't offer her kid a glass of wine with dinner or a beer at a family function. She served alcohol to a very large number of children who weren't hers. She told kids to lie to their parents about it. That's not teaching responsibility. That's not controlling a situation. That's enabling. And to make it worse, it's enabling to the children of other parents. You may think letting your kid drink early is the responsible thing to do. That's your call as a parent of your kid. It's NOT your call when it comes to MY kids. 27 months is a lot. Maybe too much. But this what this mother did was pretty darn wrong. Of that much I'm certain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ACW Posted June 11, 2007 Share Posted June 11, 2007 Ok, first off, you don't consider life imprisonment sufficient punishment??? Second, I don't like alcohol either, but this isn't a dictatorship where you ban something just because you find it distasteful. This is the US. Finally, "properly enforcing the laws" would likely result in a police state. Now, if a drunk person harms someone else, then, definitely, they should be punished. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oriolesfan93p Posted June 11, 2007 Share Posted June 11, 2007 Well , the Communist Wealth of Virginia is at again.I know most of the do-gooders on this board think that this is a just punishment, I mean, after all, the sentence was dropped from EIGHT years to a little under two. Read the artical, then tell me how this criminalization is justified. Ok, I read the article. Seems to me that the sentence is adequate. The parents were contributing to the delenquency of a minor. They were decieving the other parents and they knew they were breaking the law because they were trying to have the kids lie to the police for them. It is one thing if they are going to do something with their own kid, but not ok if they are teaching someone else's kids that there is nothing wrong with underage drinking. There is, and even if they didn't let the kids drive that night, they were moving forward an idea that it is ok for them to drink at that age and when they drink next time those parents are not going to be there to take away the keys, they are not going to be there to explain why that kid thought it was ok to be drinking, and they are not going to be there to help the other kids parents pick up the pieces of their broken lives once their child is dead (this last one applies to innocent victims of drunk drivers aswell as the ones who do the drunk driving). The laws exist for a reason and that is that children of this age are not responsible enough to be drinking. Adults should not teach children that it is ok to break the law because you don't agree with it and they should not be teaching them that it is ok to drink underage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mass_SkinsFan Posted June 11, 2007 Share Posted June 11, 2007 Ok, first off, you don't consider life imprisonment sufficient punishment??? Depends on the offense. There are a LOT of crimes that I believe deserve the FINAL punishment. A lot more than we currently punish in that manner. Second, I don't like alcohol either, but this isn't a dictatorship where you ban something just because you find it distasteful. This is the US. As I noted, that's not the only reason I believe it should be banned. It's just a fortunate side-effect for me, that ensures I don't end up making the same mistake I made those two times I ended up drunk. Thankfully I learned my lesson from the panic I felt both times. Unfortunately most people don't learn that well. Finally, "properly enforcing the laws" would likely result in a police state. For a short while, probably. At some point in time people would actually start to learn to FOLLOW THE RULES, and that would no longer be necessary. Now, if a drunk person harms someone else, then, definitely, they should be punished. Ok, so you'd be with me on a petition to remove the crime of killing someone with a motor vehicle while the driver is drunk from the "Involuntary Manslaughter" statute and putting it under "First Degree Murder" instead, correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ACW Posted June 11, 2007 Share Posted June 11, 2007 So MSF, you'd support a police state? Fascism is what that is. And IMO only murder should receive the death penalty. And as to your final question, possibly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zguy28 Posted June 11, 2007 Share Posted June 11, 2007 A question for those of the opinion that the jail time is too severe ... would your opinion change if one or more of the kids who had been drinking at that party been killed or killed someone else driving home? Serious question.I happen to think the punishment is just, hopefully quite a few parents will say "Holy crap, I better not do that! I 'm not going to jail for 2 years so my teenager can get drunk." ...but in answer to your question, IMO it shouldn't, but it would. But what else is new? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted June 11, 2007 Share Posted June 11, 2007 27 months is too long. This is longer then the preachers wife got for shooting her husband in the back. She should have gotten a long community service sentance and maybe a good fine. Non-violent criminals in which no one was hurt should not be sitting in prison for more then 2 years.'Shockingly I agree with most of what Art has said in this thread. You're getting older Destino. As you age, you get smarter and start rejecting the foolish notions of your youth for intelligent conservative thinking :0. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted June 11, 2007 Share Posted June 11, 2007 1) Alcohol ruins lives....point blank. I don't think you can think of one profitable reason to consume alcohol ( and don't play the medical card cause there is plenty of medication to substitute for alcohol ) 2) When you show your children its okay to consume alcohol how much greater chance later on is there for them to leave the bar or a friends house after consuming a few beers and get on the road and drive? 1 beer can alter your reflexes enough to kill not only yourself but INNOCENT people on the road. 3) Sip daddy's beer? I would never drink around my children or any children. Computer games ruin lives. Fast food ruins lives. Sex ruins lives. Drugs ruin lives. Speeding ruins lives. In a society where nothing is legal, it is always easy to isolate the most extreme instances of the danger of most human activities, even healthy ones otherwise, and you cripple yourself and your family. Alcohol ruins lives. I suspect it ruins more lives when restrictive parents attempt to council that alcohol is awful rather than teaching children alcohol is acceptable, but must be used properly. When you attempt to show your children alcohol is wrong, it is likely the thing they will gravitate toward when the opportunity presents itself because that which is forbidden is that which is sought for most of humanity. Alcohol is an enjoyable element to social gatherings. It has great benefits to humans not only for the medical studies that show this in moderation, but, from the practical standpoint of people living a hurried life, sitting down with a glass of wine or spirits and winding down, removes stress and gives reason to relax that might otherwise not exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted June 11, 2007 Share Posted June 11, 2007 Here, here!! Someone with reason in this thread. I can't believe people believe the thought pattern of, letting their kids participate in illegal, immoral and illecite behavior in order to overt danger. Blows my mind and scares me for the future of our children. Similarly, it frightens me to know there are parents who believe being a parent is denial of all human things to your children. But, when they shoot someone, we'll probably know why. At least my drunk kid will accidentally kill someone driving drunk . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted June 11, 2007 Share Posted June 11, 2007 Similarly, it frightens me to know there are parents who believe being a parent is denial of all human things to your children. But, when they shoot someone, we'll probably know why. At least my drunk kid will accidentally kill someone driving drunk . My father is 100% against alcohol, but even he didn't take the radical position of many in this thread. If you removed a few words from many of these posts you'd think we were talking about sex in junior high. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mass_SkinsFan Posted June 11, 2007 Share Posted June 11, 2007 So MSF, you'd support a police state? Fascism is what that is. And IMO only murder should receive the death penalty. And as to your final question, possibly. Compared to what we have now, a police state would be a wonderful thing in my mind. As I commented in another thread this morning, my personal philoso-political views are relatively close to Fascism. They don't quite meet the definition, but they're close. So far as I'm concerned, any felony and any repeat misdemeanor offender deserves the death penalty in my mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mass_SkinsFan Posted June 11, 2007 Share Posted June 11, 2007 Similarly, it frightens me to know there are parents who believe being a parent is denial of all human things to your children. But, when they shoot someone, we'll probably know why. At least my drunk kid will accidentally kill someone driving drunk . Being a parent is a JOB, Art. It's not about being liked, it's about teaching your child(ren) the difference between Right and Wrong, and the fact that there are penalties for going down the road of Wrong. It's not about being the child's friend, and it's definitely not about enabling illegal and/or immoral or just plain stupid behavior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted June 11, 2007 Share Posted June 11, 2007 Being a parent is a JOB, Art. It's not about being liked, it's about teaching your child(ren) the difference between Right and Wrong, and the fact that there are penalties for going down the road of Wrong. It's not about being the child's friend, and it's definitely not about enabling illegal and/or immoral or just plain stupid behavior. I agree, Mass, being a parent is a job. It's a huge job. It's the most important job in the world. Indeed, in doing it, your child will inevitably reach a point of dislike for you as a parent that can be fleeting or extend a long time. It is, absolutely, about teaching our children about right and wrong. Believe it or not, right and wrong is right and wrong and not a synonym for legal or illegal. Creating an environment your child views with resentment is bad parenting. Drawing limits that allow them to explore human freedoms as they age while balancing things that are off limits likely makes both more reasonable and enforceable than the method of parenting you seem to think should be undertaken. Having a glass of wine at a nice dinner with family is not something I'm prepared to council as "wrong" or "immoral" to any child I encounter. I hope your kids are not exposed to such a view on the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mass_SkinsFan Posted June 11, 2007 Share Posted June 11, 2007 I agree, Mass, being a parent is a job. It's a huge job. It's the most important job in the world. Indeed, in doing it, your child will inevitably reach a point of dislike for you as a parent that can be fleeting or extend a long time. It is, absolutely, about teaching our children about right and wrong. Believe it or not, right and wrong is right and wrong and not a synonym for legal or illegal. It's among the most important jobs in the world, that's for sure and it is inevitable that children will dislike the limits set by a parent. I would suggest that Right and Wrong is MORE IMPORTANT than legal and illegal. Creating an environment your child views with resentment is bad parenting. Drawing limits that allow them to explore human freedoms as they age while balancing things that are off limits likely makes both more reasonable and enforceable than the method of parenting you seem to think should be undertaken. We'll have to respectfully disagree on part of that, Art. I believe that if your children actually like you, they're probably being allowed too much lattitude. I grew up in a "This is my house, so long as you live here you will live by MY rules" household. We had the option of choosing to do something other than what my Father considered correct. That would have been the moment we got kicked to the curb, however. Regardless of age. My youngest brother had an earring in college. He was told that either he or the earring would be stopping at the front door of my parent's home on Thanksgiving Day. He was 20 at the time. Having a glass of wine at a nice dinner with family is not something I'm prepared to council as "wrong" or "immoral" to any child I encounter. I hope your kids are not exposed to such a view on the world. I do not, and will not, have children. At least partially because I will never be married (as has been discussed here previously). If I were to have children, they would be taught the same things I believe. If they chose to believe otherwise, they would be cast off from the family. Pure and Simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Om Posted June 11, 2007 Share Posted June 11, 2007 Sorry 'bout that. Asked a "serious question" and then never came back to hear the answers. Life called, I'm afraid. Will admit now that when I asked whether having a kid from that party kill or be killed in a drunk driving accident would change some of your views on whether the 27-month punishment was too severe, I'd not caught the part about the mother taking away the kids' keys. Does that change my own thinking? Not really. I'm viewing this strictly through the eyes of a parent with a daughter due to turn 18 in September, and constantly out and about at parties with her now graduate friends, and a son who just turned 16, is learning to drive, and has a very active social life that within the next year is going to have HIM getting into cars with other kids driving and hitting parties. The idea of either of them going to a party at a friends house where I'd been assured (and yes, you better believe I ask) there would be no alcohol or drugs tolerated, and then had one of them killed on the way home when they or another kid at that party was given alcohol anyway, and managed to get the keys ... I honestly don't know how even my keel would be next time I was around the parents in question. 27 months? Part of me thinks they might not live that long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ACW Posted June 11, 2007 Share Posted June 11, 2007 Compared to what we have now, a police state would be a wonderful thing in my mind. As I commented in another thread this morning, my personal philoso-political views are relatively close to Fascism. They don't quite meet the definition, but they're close. So far as I'm concerned, any felony and any repeat misdemeanor offender deserves the death penalty in my mind. :yikes: Um, there's that bit in the Constitution about "cruel and unusual punishment" you know Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted June 11, 2007 Share Posted June 11, 2007 Mass, You don't have kids, but, from the sound of your life coming up, you do a great deal to validate the contrary position to your own. Thank you. Om, Like you, my first response would be to be angry at the parents of a child where my child was allowed alcohol and something negative happened. But, there's a great deal of merit to the statement others have made here that in that situation, if you have done such a poor job raising your child that he/she does something stupid when exposed to alcohol or drugs or anything else, then, in reality, we as parents are likely more to blame than the other parents who's children didn't act dishonest by drinking and sneaking out with the keys despite promises. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mass_SkinsFan Posted June 11, 2007 Share Posted June 11, 2007 :yikes: Um, there's that bit in the Constitution about "cruel and unusual punishment" you know Yes there is. That's why I'm not suggesting torturing them BEFORE they're executed. I just don't believe that execution falls under that admonishment. If it did, why didn't the Founders outlaw hanging and other forms of execution in their own time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mass_SkinsFan Posted June 11, 2007 Share Posted June 11, 2007 Mass,You don't have kids, but, from the sound of your life coming up, you do a great deal to validate the contrary position to your own. Thank you. Actually, nothing personal, but with the sort of parents you're talking about I would have been a holy terror as a child. Without that iron-fisted household growing up my combative attitude and temper would definitely have landed me either in prison or a pine box long before now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
70th Week Posted June 11, 2007 Share Posted June 11, 2007 Having a glass of wine at a nice dinner with family is not something I'm prepared to council as "wrong" or "immoral" to any child I encounter. I hope your kids are not exposed to such a view on the world. Of course you don't think its wrong because you engage in such acts yourself..... I for one will not condone any act involving alcohol coming from a family that has experienced death from a drunk driver and the killing of my grandfather by his own son because of the drunken rage he (grandfather) was in. But I suppose different life experiences call for different opinions.... :2cents: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IONTOP Posted June 11, 2007 Share Posted June 11, 2007 a daughter due to turn 18 in September Nevermind... I don't want to get banned... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted June 11, 2007 Share Posted June 11, 2007 Mass, I think you should probably not equate parental teaching with permissiveness. They aren't the same thing. Goportis, Sounds like your family has problems with alcohol. This is ALL the more reason to openly help your children understand it and deal with it rather than shutting it off, because, for a family you describe, it will be ill for those around your child when your influence is gone, and pressure from friends creates an episode to add to your family history. In your case it is all the more important for you to demonstrate appropriate alcohol use and ingrain it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Om Posted June 11, 2007 Share Posted June 11, 2007 Om, Like you, my first response would be to be angry at the parents of a child where my child was allowed alcohol and something negative happened. But, there's a great deal of merit to the statement others have made here that in that situation, if you have done such a poor job raising your child that he/she does something stupid when exposed to alcohol or drugs or anything else, then, in reality, we as parents are likely more to blame than the other parents who's children didn't act dishonest by drinking and sneaking out with the keys despite promises. We were both that age, Art. At 17, maybe you were able to make sound decisions about stuff like whose car to get into after a party, or exactly what effect a couple of beers would have on you if you hadn't eaten enough, or any one of the myriad other things we learn about ourselves as we get a little more age and experience ... but I wasn't. I THOUGHT I was, but I wasn't. Tell you what. Let's talk again when your daughters are of the age we're talking about here and very much engaged in their own social lives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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