Predicto Posted May 10, 2007 Share Posted May 10, 2007 I understand you point, and very well said, but There aren't any questions about those players?? Do we suspect becuase we know about it's use in sports? Sure. But With Bonds, He lied and cheated. Jacoby wasn't caught and than caught lying about it, so one can't treat him the same as Bonds. YOu are doing a lot of assuming there. Bonds hasn't been caught, and you are assuming he is lying. The only difference between him and big Joe is that no one has asked big Joe whether he used steroids. But the real difference is that we like big Joe and we loathe Bonds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccsl2 Posted May 10, 2007 Share Posted May 10, 2007 YOu are doing a lot of assuming there. Bonds hasn't been caught, and you are assuming he is lying. The only difference between him and big Joe is that no one has asked big Joe whether he used steroids. But the real difference is that we like big Joe and we loathe Bonds. :applause: And that is he whole issue here. If Bonds was likeable he wouldn't get this much flack. Imagine of Roger Clemens was in this position. If it comes out that he used/uses steroids, there is no way the discussion of him not being in the Hall of Fame would happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mufumonk Posted May 10, 2007 Share Posted May 10, 2007 Meanwhile, back to the original topic.Barry Bonds is a arrogant prick, but then again, so am I. Can't hold that against him. Barry Bonds is a cheat, but so were spitball pitchers. Can't hold that against him. Barry Bonds is a liar. That, I can hold against him. Barry Bonds wears that gay elbow armor. That, I can hold against him. Barry Bonds has benefited from the itty bitty strike zone of the last 15 years. That's an advantage. Barry Bonds has faced more medicore pitching than Hank. That's an advantage. All players now, including ole balloon head, are aloud to hover over the plate without fear. I'd like to see'm try that crap back in the day against the likes of Bob Gibson. I'd like to see what Hank, Willie, and the Babe could have done under those conditions. For me, the steroids didn't help him hit the ball so much further that he needed them to hit home runs, it was more that they kept him playing due to their benefit of healing and preventing injuries. That, was an unfair advantage. Bottom line, if I could make up a team of the greatest ball players of all time, steroids or not, Bonds wouldn't make the team. He wouldn't have been nowhere near as successful had he played 30 yrs ago. IMO No comparison between someone greasing the ball for an extra inch of movement compared to some freakish brute loaded up on steroids. As far as hitting the ball further? Those warning track shots he used to hit started to become HR's. The juice definitely had a massive effect on the amount of HR's he hit. Balls that would have been fly ball outs started leaving the park. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mufumonk Posted May 10, 2007 Share Posted May 10, 2007 :applause: And that is he whole issue here. If Bonds was likeable he wouldn't get this much flack. Imagine of Roger Clemens was in this position. If it comes out that he used/uses steroids, there is no way the discussion of him not being in the Hall of Fame would happen. Clemens isn't exactly well liked by fans either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad_Edwards_Fan Posted May 10, 2007 Share Posted May 10, 2007 No comparison between someone greasing the ball for an extra inch of movement compared to some freakish brute loaded up on steroids.As far as hitting the ball further? Those warning track shots he used to hit started to become HR's. The juice definitely had a massive effect on the amount of HR's he hit. Balls that would have been fly ball outs started leaving the park. Im no Bonds fan, but even in his slim Pitt days i dont think anyone could accuse him of only having "warning track" power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccsl2 Posted May 10, 2007 Share Posted May 10, 2007 No comparison between someone greasing the ball for an extra inch of movement compared to some freakish brute loaded up on steroids. Cheating is cheating is cheating. Baseball promotes it. Whether it is scuffing a baseball, pine tar, or steroids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted May 10, 2007 Share Posted May 10, 2007 No comparison between someone greasing the ball for an extra inch of movement compared to some freakish brute loaded up on steroids.As far as hitting the ball further? Those warning track shots he used to hit started to become HR's. The juice definitely had a massive effect on the amount of HR's he hit. Balls that would have been fly ball outs started leaving the park. Bonds didn't hit the tape measure home runs. The big moon shots were by McGwire and Sosa. When Bonds got amazing was when he started hitting every strike thrown to him directly on the nose. You could not fool him, you could not blow it by him. It got to the point that no one would even pitch to him at all. Those freakish stats were a matter of vision and plate discipline, not just 20 extra feet on a fly ball. If it was just that, only his home run stat would have gone up. he wouldn't have on base percentages of .600 (!) and 200 walks, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted May 10, 2007 Share Posted May 10, 2007 No comparison between someone greasing the ball for an extra inch of movement compared to some freakish brute loaded up on steroids. Being pitched to by a freakish brute loaded up on steroids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted May 10, 2007 Share Posted May 10, 2007 No comparison between someone greasing the ball for an extra inch of movement compared to some freakish brute loaded up on steroids. That's complete nonsense. More control on the ball makes a good pitcher better. More power makes a good hitter better. They in essence do the exact same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad_Edwards_Fan Posted May 10, 2007 Share Posted May 10, 2007 Being pitched to by a freakish brute loaded up on steroids. Something to be said for the fact that so many more pitchers have been caught than batters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted May 10, 2007 Share Posted May 10, 2007 Bonds didn't hit the tape measure home runs. The big moon shots were by McGwire and Sosa. When Bonds got amazing was when he started hitting every strike thrown to him directly on the nose. You could not fool him, you could not blow it by him. It got to the point that no one would even pitch to him at all. Those freakish stats were a matter of vision and plate discipline, not just 20 extra feet on a fly ball. If it was just that, only his home run stat would have gone up. he wouldn't have on base percentages of .600 (!) and 200 walks, etc. Exactly! Bonds is one of the greatest hitters ever and it's not simply because of his home runs. The guy is a fantastic hitter that would still be considered great without the high amount of home runs. But people hate him because he's a jerk... though like I said before, he hasn't gone into the stands to beat up handicapped people like old sharpened spikes did. I wonder when the movement to have him tossed out of the hall will begin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccsl2 Posted May 10, 2007 Share Posted May 10, 2007 Exactly! Bonds is one of the greatest hitters ever and it's not simply because of his home runs. The guy is a fantastic hitter that would still be considered great without the high amount of home runs. But people hate him because he's a jerk... though like I said before, he hasn't gone into the stands to beat up handicapped people like old sharpened spikes did. I wonder when the movement to have him tossed out of the hall will begin. LOL @ Old sharpened spikes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manleyistheman Posted May 10, 2007 Share Posted May 10, 2007 Bonds didn't hit the tape measure home runs. The big moon shots were by McGwire and Sosa. When Bonds got amazing was when he started hitting every strike thrown to him directly on the nose. You could not fool him, you could not blow it by him. It got to the point that no one would even pitch to him at all. Those freakish stats were a matter of vision and plate discipline, not just 20 extra feet on a fly ball. If it was just that, only his home run stat would have gone up. he wouldn't have on base percentages of .600 (!) and 200 walks, etc. And there you have the most important argument in Barry's defense. The guy does not miss a pitch. Sorry to tell all you haters but, steroids is not helping him with that. The man is one of the best baseball players of all time. Wrong time-period for him to be playing, perfect time period for the league as he has become the scape-goat and many fans have fallen for it from the sound of the hatred in some of you. Which by the way, some of you are very angry and vindictive to the point that you wish harm to the man. And I thought only scorned women were like that. Might want to explore all that anger....seriously! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mufumonk Posted May 10, 2007 Share Posted May 10, 2007 That's complete nonsense. More control on the ball makes a good pitcher better. More power makes a good hitter better. They in essence do the exact same thing. Greasing/scuffing the ball does NOT increase control. It adds an extra inch or two of movement to the ball if you're lucky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mufumonk Posted May 10, 2007 Share Posted May 10, 2007 Being pitched to by a freakish brute loaded up on steroids. Because there are soooooooo many freakishly large pitchers....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted May 10, 2007 Share Posted May 10, 2007 Greasing/scuffing the ball does NOT increase control. It adds an extra inch or two of movement to the ball if you're lucky. Which is an absolutely huge advantage for a pitcher. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted May 10, 2007 Share Posted May 10, 2007 Because there are soooooooo many freakishly large pitchers....... There certanly are some freakishly hard throwing dudes out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mufumonk Posted May 10, 2007 Share Posted May 10, 2007 Bonds didn't hit the tape measure home runs. The big moon shots were by McGwire and Sosa. When Bonds got amazing was when he started hitting every strike thrown to him directly on the nose. You could not fool him, you could not blow it by him. It got to the point that no one would even pitch to him at all. Those freakish stats were a matter of vision and plate discipline, not just 20 extra feet on a fly ball. If it was just that, only his home run stat would have gone up. he wouldn't have on base percentages of .600 (!) and 200 walks, etc. Trickle down effect. Baseball has done everything it can to protect hitters. A guy like Bonds who wears more armor than a Knight of the Round table can stand on top of the plate without fear of getting hurt. This takes away half the strike zone. So you're left with very little area to throw the ball. Add this to Bonds' freakish power due to steroids. Half the plate is gone. He's going to pound anything on the outer half of the plate. The more you get pitched around like he has, the easier it is to dial in and be selective on your swings. Then there's the fear factor due to his freakish power thanks to steroids. You see it all the time against him. A pitcher tries to be too perfect and ends up throwing in his wheel house. When taking all of this into account of course his numbers are going to go up and yes there is a direct correlation between that and his steroid abuse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GibbsFactor Posted May 10, 2007 Share Posted May 10, 2007 I'm not sure where I stand with Bonds. I know I can admit that he is one of the best players to ever play. I always thought hitting was about hand eye coord and bat speed. I wonder why more body builders don't play the game if all it takes is muscles? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSW Posted May 10, 2007 Share Posted May 10, 2007 Trickle down effect. Baseball has done everything it can to protect hitters. A guy like Bonds who wears more armor than a Knight of the Round table can stand on top of the plate without fear of getting hurt. This takes away half the strike zone. So you're left with very little area to throw the ball. Add this to Bonds' freakish power due to steroids. Half the plate is gone. He's going to pound anything on the outer half of the plate. The more you get pitched around like he has, the easier it is to dial in and be selective on your swings. Then there's the fear factor due to his freakish power thanks to steroids. You see it all the time against him. A pitcher tries to be too perfect and ends up throwing in his wheel house. When taking all of this into account of course his numbers are going to go up and yes there is a direct correlation between that and his steroid abuse. What a load of CRAP....whatever people may or may not say about him, he is one if not the greatest hitter baseball has seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Evil Genius Posted May 10, 2007 Share Posted May 10, 2007 Trickle down effect. Baseball has done everything it can to protect hitters. A guy like Bonds who wears more armor than a Knight of the Round table can stand on top of the plate without fear of getting hurt. This takes away half the strike zone. So you're left with very little area to throw the ball. Add this to Bonds' freakish power due to steroids. Half the plate is gone. He's going to pound anything on the outer half of the plate. The more you get pitched around like he has, the easier it is to dial in and be selective on your swings. Then there's the fear factor due to his freakish power thanks to steroids. You see it all the time against him. A pitcher tries to be too perfect and ends up throwing in his wheel house. When taking all of this into account of course his numbers are going to go up and yes there is a direct correlation between that and his steroid abuse. Bonds wears an elbow pad...people make it out to be full body armor. And he doesn't wear the shin/ankle protector that most power hitters wear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mufumonk Posted May 10, 2007 Share Posted May 10, 2007 There certanly are some freakishly hard throwing dudes out there. Not nearly as many as you think. Do not under any circumstances go by what you see on TV or on the scoreboard at the games. There are 2 guns used to clock a pitcher. The JUGGS gun (what you see on TV) and the RAY gun (what scouts, coaches, etc... use). The JUGGS gun times the ball directly out of your hand. By the time it reaches the plate the ball (what the RAY gun times) has lost a good 7 mph. The JUGGS gun is used for show. How exciting would it be if you knew that most pitchers in baseball threw in the upper 80's / low 90's rather than the 96-100 mph realm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted May 10, 2007 Share Posted May 10, 2007 Trickle down effect. Baseball has done everything it can to protect hitters. A guy like Bonds who wears more armor than a Knight of the Round table can stand on top of the plate without fear of getting hurt. This takes away half the strike zone. So you're left with very little area to throw the ball. Add this to Bonds' freakish power due to steroids. Half the plate is gone. He's going to pound anything on the outer half of the plate. The more you get pitched around like he has, the easier it is to dial in and be selective on your swings. Then there's the fear factor due to his freakish power thanks to steroids. You see it all the time against him. A pitcher tries to be too perfect and ends up throwing in his wheel house. When taking all of this into account of course his numbers are going to go up and yes there is a direct correlation between that and his steroid abuse. I guess that explains why no one else in this era has been able to do what Bonds has done. And he wears an elbow guard after his elbow was broken by a pitch earlier in his career. It isn't enough that he has to worry about being hit in the body by a fastball (which hurts like hell), it is somehow necessary that he worry about career ending injury to his elbow. Ok. Next I expect you to complain about how all of those ***** batters go up into the box wearing those ***** batting helmets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mufumonk Posted May 10, 2007 Share Posted May 10, 2007 What a load of CRAP....whatever people may or may not say about him, he is one if not the greatest hitter baseball has seen. I'm not denying that he's a great hitter. Yes, he has an incredible eye. But his numbers are grossly inflated due to steroids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mufumonk Posted May 10, 2007 Share Posted May 10, 2007 I guess that explains why no one else in this era has been able to do what Bonds has done. And he wears an elbow guard after his elbow was broken by a pitch earlier in his career. It isn't enough that he has to worry about being hit in the body by a fastball (which hurts like hell), it is somehow necessary that he worry about career ending injury to his elbow. Ok. Next I expect you to complain about how all of those ***** batters go up into the box wearing those ***** batting helmets. What the hell kind of effect do you think steroids are going to have on a guy that's already HoF caliber? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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