VALUE/Prospective (CJ PEOPLE PLEASE READ)

[skinsn24]

Please delete posted twice by mistake....Sorry Mods, my bad, thanks ahead of time for cleaning it up

[skinsn24]

Ok, i had pretty good luck with my first thread today, so I am creating one more. This is not sussposed to be a draft a WR vs Draft D thread. This is a thread to get peoples opinion on the draft that value that people are willing to give up for a receiver that has never played an NFL down vs. the value of trading of a current wide receiver. It is trying to put things into perspective.

Here is some information, take it as you will: The last big name WRs to be traded were Dieon Branch and Javon Walker. Walker was a probowl player, who was coming off an injury, but had cleared physicals, and had previously been at a prowbowl level. Most people did not doubt his ability to come back from injury, his contract was the problem in GB. Branch was the Superbowl MVP.

Javon walker was traded for a second rounder straight up.

Superbowl MVP Dieon Branch was traded for a 1 first rounder (mid round)

In order to get Calvin Johnson (assuming he doesnt drop to 6) it will *most likely* require our first rounder this year (obvious), our first rounder next year, and a second or third next year (maybe even both based on rumors). Let me say this again according to *rumors* to get Calvin Johnson would require:

2 First Round Picks (one in the top 3, one unknown)

1 Second Round Pick

My Question is this: Would you be willing to give up these 3 high picks for a current NFL STAR wide out, who has actually PROVEN he can play?

Also what about just giving away 1 pick for a very good number 2, say TJ Houshmanzada (a lower pick than 6 overall)?

I for one have to believe that there are almost no wide recievers who wouldnt be moved for 3 picks top picks in the NFL draft.

What Type of Value would Chad Johnson demand?

What type of Value for Reggie Wayne?

What type of value for Marvin Harrison?

What type of value for Andre Johnson (my favorite, young, big, fast, on a horrible team, who needs to fill many gaps)

Keep in mind that these guys are proven NFL players?

Would want the redskins to accept 2 first rounders plus a second for Moss (think of how easy it would be to get Calvin Johnson then)?

Just a thought and I would like to see your guys opinions on the matter.

EDIT: Please dont attack me on this post alone, I am simply asking for opinions on the value of the other players, not saying anyone is right or wrong. Also trying to figure out if people would rather have CJ or one of the proven NFL Stars

EDIT 2: Notice you may select as many of the choices as you want. I also encourage you to post, stating what you think value for each player would be. The point here is to try to set the ES market for WRs.

[SkinsDukes]

Again, as I stated in a previous thread. (And again not necessarily to be on the CJ backwagon) but using Walker isn't the best example. He was coming off a serious knee injury, and made it clear he wanted out of Green Bay. If you recall even Favre called him out before he was traded. Add that together and that dropped the price to a second rounder. Green Bay had to take what they could get. A totally healthy Walker without the contract dispute would have easily commanded a first round pick plus.

[SkinsDukes]

Again, as I stated in a previous thread. (And again not necessarily to be on the CJ backwagon) but using Walker isn't the best example. He was coming off a serious knee injury, and made it clear he wanted out of Green Bay. If you recall even Favre called him out before he was traded. Add that together and that dropped the price to a second rounder. Green Bay had to take what they could get. A totally healthy Walker without the contract dispute would have easily commanded a first round pick plus.

[skinsn24]

Again, as I stated in a previous thread. (And again not necessarily to be on the CJ backwagon) but using Walker isn't the best example. He was coming off a serious knee injury, and made it clear he wanted out of Green Bay. If you recall even Favre called him out before he was traded. Add that together and that dropped the price to a second rounder. Green Bay had to take what they could get. A totally healthy Walker without the contract dispute would have easily commanded a first round pick plus.

I know, that is why i put that in the thread. I wasnt trying to hide the fact.

I also Mentioned superbowl MVP Dieon Branch, who was for a first rounder.

I was just putting them there to give some reference.

[SkinsDukes]

I know, that is why i put that in the thread. I wasnt trying to hide the fact.

I also Mentioned superbowl MVP Dieon Branch, who was for a first rounder.

I was just putting them there to give some reference.

I understand your perspective, definitely has some merit...but I personally don't think its fair to set the market with those two. Walker had health and contract issues, and Branch made it clear he wanted out of NE since they weren't going to pay them. Other teams knew that info and that drove their respective trade values down.

[BruinSkin]

Given the list, anyone who votes for Johnson is foolish. If you absolutely HAD to give up these picks, you always take the proven talent (Chad, Marvin, etc.).

[skinsn24]

I understand your perspective, definitely has some merit...but I personally don't think its fair to set the market with those two. Walker had health and contract issues, and Branch made it clear he wanted out of NE since they weren't going to pay them. Other teams knew that info and that drove their respective trade values down.

I wasnt trying to "set the market" i was just pointing those 2 out as the most recent ones, it is fair for everyone to make their own determination.

That is actually what i am asking for people to do, i just thought some information would be helpful when trying to "set you own market."

Also keep in mind CJ would be getting a HUGE deal as a top 3 pick, so that is my rebuttle to your Branch comment.

BUt again, my goal here is to try let our fellow ESers set the market. I just put out the facts.

[skinsn24]

Given the list, anyone who votes for Johnson is foolish. If you absolutely HAD to give up these picks, you always take the proven talent (Chad, Marvin, etc.).

This is a fair opinion. Notice that you can click on as many of the players as you want though.

Also what i am trying to get at, is i have a feeling some of these teams might be willing to part with one of there stars for all 3 picks! Hell then they could get calvin johnson. lol

[XxSpearheadxX]

Sean Springs plus the two firsts. One of which will be the 32nd pick, because we are winning the superbowl next year.

[praise_gibbs]

what if the mods don't delete this thread? then what? You will look like a fool in front of all of us. Life would suck then..

[CooleyNaMean]

haha this dude posted the same thread twice, what an idiot! you need to go back to posting school.

[mrtacconi]

i would ship Moss out of here for two firsts and a second in a heartbeat. Go ahead and roast me, I dont give a poop. I love Santana but wow thats a major building block

[mrtacconi]

After I posted that i saw his face in my sig and felt instantly traitor-ish.

[Snagletooth]

None. But maybe for Randy Moss in his prime if he was a high character type... CJ has that potential but is still unproven.

[SonnyJ]

Given the list, anyone who votes for Johnson is foolish. If you absolutely HAD to give up these picks, you always take the proven talent (Chad, Marvin, etc.).

Not the way draft picks are over-valued. Look at recent trades for RBs, QBs, you name it. Consider how foolish the Redskins are considered for using FA as a major component to building a team - on the theory that a proven player is preferenced to potential. Read the posts on this site for trading #6 for one of the top LBs in the league and a first round pick.

For some reason, draft picks have this mystical quality - the allure of what could be. I agree with you - a bird in hand is worth two in the bush. But rational thought seems to take a vacation when it comes to draft picks.

[kramdizzle]

look not every first round player is going to be a good player. BUT no reciever who on a good day catches 7-10 passes is going to be worth potentially 3 quality starters. NONE OF THEM!! look at the Pats or teh Chargers, even the Ravens. none of them have an "awsome" reciever and yet they still win...... a lot. now look at the Cards. Two all pro WR and they still are drafting ahead of us. I guess you know what i picked

[skinsn24]

Does anyone find it strange that this pole shows that 25 people would like to have CJ for the 3 picks, which is 7 votes than for any of the PROVEN recievers in the NFL.

I would like the people who voted for CJ and not the other proven guys to explain. I am interested becaus in my opinion, we ALREADY KNOW that Chad Johnson or Andre Johnson are studs, but we dont know about Calvin yet.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

look not every first round player is going to be a good player. BUT no reciever who on a good day catches 7-10 passes is going to be worth potentially 3 quality starters. NONE OF THEM!! look at the Pats or teh Chargers, even the Ravens. none of them have an "awsome" reciever and yet they still win...... a lot. now look at the Cards. Two all pro WR and they still are drafting ahead of us. I guess you know what i picked

This is my feeling as well...a QB like Manning or Brady might be worth it, but I can't think of any other player or position I would be willing to part with so much to obtain. Well, ok, maybe Nick Novak as well, but still... :cool:

[skinsn24]

This is my feeling as well...a QB like Manning or Brady might be worth it, but I can't think of any other player or position I would be willing to part with so much to obtain. Well, ok, maybe Nick Novak as well, but still... :cool:

I am with you. I still see CJ has more votes than any of the proven NFL ALL PRO wide outs. Man Crush Anyone?

Anyone who voted for Calvin and not the other guys, why? (honest question)

[Hooper]

Good Lord. You CJ is worth more than any PROVEN receiver in the league should be ashamed of yourselves.

[Veretax]

I am with you. I still see CJ has more votes than any of the proven NFL ALL PRO wide outs. Man Crush Anyone?

Anyone who voted for Calvin and not the other guys, why? (honest question)

I'll try to answer that.

Andre Johnson has fluctuated between 62 catches and 103 last year. He did have a nice 1147 yard receiving year, but only 11.l1 yard average. Still not bad, He had 5 Touch Downs which is so so, and was on a team with a QB that was never protected. Clearly the guy can catch and has a nice bill, however, I've never been impressed by Johnson, he maybe a great WR and I havent seen many texan games, but his stats don't scream Hall of Famer either

As for Marvin, he is the one I'd consider trading for, but He is not a guy that gets a lot of yards after the catch, he seems to catch along the sidelines a lot and is built like Moss and ARE, ie not tha tall, he is not an upgrade over moss in my view because moss is much faster. He is also in his 11th season, he doesn't have a lot of time left. His first few years he didn't really have great stat years, and I have to think his stats are as much a product of Peyton as the system in general

Reggie Wayne like Harrison is much shorter, than CJ, though he can jump as I recall. His statistics don't jump out at me and say anything about him either, And I think the only reason he gets so many catches is because teams like to cover Harrison tightly.

TJ's numbers are even lower than Waynes, and while both Wayne and Harrison are good receivers, they aren't worth two #1 picks.

Chad Johnson is the only one out of all those listed that has proven experience and stats to go with it who might be worth two #1 picks. None of the other guys have produced at a similar level, and while I like harrison, he'd be coming here to retire, and I don't think Wayne would work as well in our system. (But I would NOT want him as a Redskin do to character issues)

Calvin Johnson because of his speed and athleticism may be worth 2 #1 picks, but you know the more I compare him to those guys, I don't think he's worth 2#1s plus other picks. There is no way. You project he will be a great WR, and he might, but compared to Chad Johnson, ya know with a 13 game season last year he had 1200 yards receiving last year with a QB in Reggie ball that was far from Pro Calliber, and he did a lot of that despite of coverages. SO I think he projects a lot better than Chad Johnson, but more than two #1s ugh right now I'd say no.

[skinsn24]

Calvin Johnson because of his speed and athleticism may be worth 2 #1 picks, but you know the more I compare him to those guys, I don't think he's worth 2#1s plus other picks. There is no way. You project he will be a great WR, and he might, but compared to Chad Johnson, ya know with a 13 game season last year he had 1200 yards receiving last year with a QB in Reggie ball that was far from Pro Calliber, and he did a lot of that despite of coverages. SO I think he projects a lot better than Chad Johnson, but more than two #1s ugh right now I'd say no.

Veretax, I thank you for trying, i just dont see how CJ is gonna outperform Ocho Cinco who happened to set a couple NFL records last year while playing injuired, with an injuried number 2, and a QB coming off an ACL tear.

My point is, the best people can really hope for is for CJ to be the next Ocho Cinco (you really cant get much better). If 85 is not worth it, i dont think CJ is.

[Veretax]

Veretax, I thank you for trying, i just dont see how CJ is gonna outperform Ocho Cinco who happened to set a couple NFL records last year while playing injuired, with an injuried number 2, and a QB coming off an ACL tear.

My point is, the best people can really hope for is for CJ to be the next Ocho Cinco (you really cant get much better). If 85 is not worth it, i dont think CJ is.

As I sad Chad Johnson is the only Receiver that has put up the numbers to even bother comparing to Calvin Johnson. CJ could be a bust and a fluke too. If you wanted to draft CJ it would have to be because you thought he would make a longterm committment to your team, and would have similar numbers to Chad Johnson, otherwise that pay at whatever pick plus the draft picks just is not worth it.

Even as good as Chad Johnson is I"m not sure he'll stay with the bengals for ever. The same feeling I am getting from CJ right now, i am feeling more and more like CJ is a ticking time bomb that is going to go off and take some unsuspecting team with him, and I don't want it to be the skins.

PlusThe more and more I look at the stats, the less and less I want CJ, we don't need him and not at the price of next years first and the 6th pick this year. We don't need him that badly. We need a DT like Alan Branch

[EnFoRcEr_uPu]

Bottom line, the people that chose CJ need to stop thinking about football ever again. If you truely believe he's worth that much, you shouldn't even be on these boards. That's my honest opinion.