Zguy28 Posted March 15, 2007 Share Posted March 15, 2007 More people have died and been killed in Christs name than any other name in the history of human kind. That's not a knock on Christ, just an observation that a lot of folks down through history have used Christs name to justified a lot of severely messed up behavior.You'll get no argument from me on that.Unfortunately for your point about Christians being persecuted, we're not talking about Christians being persecuted for following Christs teachings. We're talking about "Christians" who are myopically focused on persecuting others and who subsequently have totally abandoning Christs teachings in everything but name. Like being anti gay was one of Christ's top ten? Like Christ even mentioned it once. As with Abortion. As with imposing your religion doctrine on others. As with condemning any of God's children for whatever perceived offense they've committed against your interpretation and dogma. This is what I'm talking about. Not all evangelicals are like that and not all hold all of those views the same way. And I never said we were persecuted, that's strong language. Persecution is what's happening in Pakistan or Vietnam, where you are arrested just for being Christian. PS. Jesus may not have mentioned homosexuality (he didn't have too since he only went to Israel while in the flesh; that's another thread )but Paul sure did, since it was rampant among Gentiles who were his audience. Basically people are Bashing "Christians" for supporting and championing a President and policies which couldn't be farther away from God's values as taught by Christ, then six years down the road taking note that they're supporting torture? Like that hasn't been obvious for more than half a decade!Fine. But when people turn from their erroneous ways, should you hold it over them? And how does that line apply to folks who have condoned false imprisonment, torture, and wanton killings on a scale of tens/hundreds of thousands because they're myopically focused on they're own petty hatreds at home? What do you think Jesus would say about that? Again, you use strong language where its not needed. Evangelicals don't hate gays, or abortionists, or women who have abortions. Just like I don't hate liberals, even though most of the time I vehemently disagree with them.Evangelicals in this latest and modern identity don't represent any Christian values I've ever subscribed too! They give Christians and Christ a bad name.. Many times that is the case. I used to be a dominionist, but am no longer, I'm more of a libertarian. The "church" should be more focused on evangelism than changing people through legislation or force (which doesn't change the heart). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zguy28 Posted March 15, 2007 Share Posted March 15, 2007 I didn't call christians anti-intellectual. I was referring to an element within the christian community that is decidedly anti-intellectual. http://www.extremeskins.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3589940&postcount=6My apologies if I took you to mean all Christians. But just because many Christians don't believe in evolution doesn't make them "decidedly anti-intellectual." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
headexplode Posted March 15, 2007 Share Posted March 15, 2007 http://www.extremeskins.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3589940&postcount=6My apologies if I took you to mean all Christians. But just because many Christians don't believe in evolution doesn't make them "decidedly anti-intellectual." I should've been more clear with the anti-intellectual statement. It does sound like I mean all christians. I apologize. Just because one does not believe in evolution does not make them, in my mind, anti-intellectual. I reserve that term for christians who read only the bible and refuse to investigate any other sources, refuse to make up their minds without actually studying the facts of the matter, and want other people to do the same. I think you would find that evolution does not necessarily suppose that god does or does not exist. Evolution is not a creation story. Sure, there are some scientists who believe in abiotic origins of the planet and its species, but that is no more provable than proving that god created the heavens and earth and everyone in it. Evolution is simply in the world all around us--things evolve and adapt and change over time to suit the ever-changing environment. That does not mean there is or is not a god. It's just a fact of life. Anti-intellectuals vehemently refuse to even acknowledge that this is possibly true. Anti-intellectuals try to debunk the notion of scientific method in favor of the very tiresome "just read the bible." Then, they try to use the very science they despise to disprove science. When one tries to deny things that are very clearly seen around them and ignore the thousands of tons of research that has documented what we see all around us, and simply refers to the bible as a crutch I feel that is anti-intellectual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrabR Posted March 15, 2007 Share Posted March 15, 2007 Evangelicals has endorsed an anti-torture statement saying the United States has crossed "boundaries of what is legally and morally permissible" in its treatment of detainees and war prisoners I wonder why they do not condemn their God who tortures people with fire forever and ever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rincewind Posted March 15, 2007 Share Posted March 15, 2007 http://www.extremeskins.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3589940&postcount=6My apologies if I took you to mean all Christians. But just because many Christians don't believe in evolution doesn't make them "decidedly anti-intellectual." Can I ask an honest question? Why won't the Vatican open its libraries? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfitzo53 Posted March 15, 2007 Share Posted March 15, 2007 Can I ask an honest question? Why won't the Vatican open its libraries? :secret: They don't want people to know that Audrey Tautou is descended from Jesus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMS Posted March 15, 2007 Share Posted March 15, 2007 Zguy28, First let me apologize because I put to many "you's" and "your" in my post when I should have used "they" and "their". I don't know anything about how you practice your faith and I shouldn't have implied you were part of the problem. Let me continue in a more abstract vein. PS. Jesus may not have mentioned homosexuality (he didn't have too since he only went to Israel while in the flesh; that's another thread )but Paul sure did, since it was rampant among Gentiles who were his audience. Christ didn't was my point. Christ who hung out with prostitutes, the un washed, beggers, and worst of all tax collectors. Fine. But when people turn from their erroneous ways, should you hold it over them? If religion is a personal compass, No. If religion is a club used to knock the snot out of people, then by all means. Having used the club; however, one can't complain when others knock back when it becomes clear the mistakes made. Again, you use strong language where its not needed. Evangelicals don't hate gays, or abortionists, or women who have abortions. Just like I don't hate liberals, even though most of the time I vehemently disagree with them. Evangelicals Hate gays. They are actively involved in campaigns to break up their families, to deny them equal rights, and to persecute them economically, politically, socially and legislatively. So called "Christian" policies literally harm the children of gay families. Hate is not too strong a word for the net effect of the evangelical community upon the gay community and Christ has nothing to do with it. Many times that is the case. I used to be a dominionist, but am no longer, I'm more of a libertarian. The "church" should be more focused on evangelism than changing people through legislation or force (which doesn't change the heart). If you look for the evil in men's hearts, you will find it. Abraham Lincoln. My religion is pretty important to me. That's why I don't want to dictate religion to anybody else, cause I don't want them to do it to me. My biggest problem with basing legislation on religious teaching is a faith based one. Laws should be good for the entire country, and be negotiated as such between our diverse communities. Religion by definition isn't about negotiation it's about faith and observance. How can negotiation play a role when one starts with their non negotiable religious beliefs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMS Posted March 15, 2007 Share Posted March 15, 2007 Can I ask an honest question? Why won't the Vatican open its libraries? We will as soon as the Protestants return all the Church property they stole after the schism... Seriously. They're our books. Why should we let you look at them? We let you guys view Michalangelo's cealing for a small fee. What have we done for you lately, hmmmm? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sisyphus Posted March 15, 2007 Author Share Posted March 15, 2007 You do know he's quoting the bible don't you?That little burst of rhetoric wasn't exactly his opinion. Yeah ... I can read. But presumably it accurately reflected his opinion. Otherwise he wouldn't have prefaced it with ... "Jesus himself said" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumbo Posted March 15, 2007 Share Posted March 15, 2007 Are persecuted Christians and haters of faith distracting from the topic? How can you support our troops but be against the war unless you've stopped beating your wife? I think it's fine that they spoke out against torture. Especially since every Mel Gibson movie is loaded with torture scenes, (kinky guy, that Mel). :cool: There seems more interest among Christians to better define and differentiate themselves politically from stereotypes, even if they still have largely similar stances on many issues due to their belief system. I think that's a good thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rincewind Posted March 15, 2007 Share Posted March 15, 2007 We will as soon as the Protestants return all the Church property they stole after the schism...Seriously. They're our books. Why should we let you look at them? We let you guys view Michalangelo's cealing. What have we done for you lately, hmmmm? What's with the 'we' and 'you'? You personally own these books? Do you know whether or not I'm baptized? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sisyphus Posted March 15, 2007 Author Share Posted March 15, 2007 Not really. Just stating what Jesus said and what I believe is the truth.You're proving Jesus right, not proving me wrong. There not my words. You believe it to be true and you cut and pasted it here under your name. It doesn't matter who 'said' it. Christianity is powerful to many precisely because it has built into it this self-reinforcing idea ... that Christians should expect to be persecuted ... that people who deny the message are afraid and are "hiding from the light" ... that people who try to reason this kind of stuff are pitching their intellect against that of a supreme being. :doh::laugh: To paraphrase Galileo ... if a supreme being gave humans a powerful brain, wouldn't he want it to be used? :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMS Posted March 15, 2007 Share Posted March 15, 2007 There seems more interest among Christians to better define and differentiate themselves politically from stereotypes, even if they still have largely similar stances on many issues due to their belief system. I think that's a good thing. Actually if history teaches us anything. Once the "Christians" have dominated and marginalized the non Christian voices, then they'll cannibalize each other. There is little common doctrine among groups which define themselves as Christian today. The political alliances entered are made upon persecution out lairs rather than any of the tenants of the Nicene Creed which define what it is to be a Christian for the vast majority of the worlds Christians. ( Mostly because we've hunted down and killed all those that didn't subscribe to it in antiquity... ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfitzo53 Posted March 15, 2007 Share Posted March 15, 2007 To paraphrase Galileo ... if a supreme being gave humans a powerful brain, wouldn't he want it to be used? :laugh: "I do not feel obligated to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use." -Galileo Galilei Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMS Posted March 15, 2007 Share Posted March 15, 2007 What's with the 'we' and 'you'? You personally own these books? Do you know whether or not I'm baptized? Yes I do. Catholics own all property in the name of the Pope in tandum. And yes I know if your not baptized too. We keep lists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sisyphus Posted March 15, 2007 Author Share Posted March 15, 2007 Are persecuted Christians and haters of faith distracting from the topic? How can you support our troops but be against the war unless you've stopped beating your wife? I think it's fine that they spoke out against torture. Especially since every Mel Gibson movie is loaded with torture scenes, (kinky guy, that Mel). :cool: There seems more interest among Christians to better define and differentiate themselves politically from stereotypes, even if they still have largely similar stances on many issues due to their belief system. I think that's a good thing. Personally I was directing my hate (actually more scorn, pity and derision ... I'm not the hateful kind ) toward the self-indulgent, powerful majority who claim to be persecuted. Not on those of faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted March 15, 2007 Share Posted March 15, 2007 To paraphrase Galileo ... if a supreme being gave humans a powerful brain, wouldn't he want it to be used? :laugh: But, what if he didn't give his followers a powerful brain? (Ducking.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rincewind Posted March 15, 2007 Share Posted March 15, 2007 Yes I do. Catholics own all property in the name of the Pope in tandum. And yes I know if your not baptized too. We keep lists. Good - then you should know I was baptized and therefore it should be 'ours', not 'yours'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
headexplode Posted March 15, 2007 Share Posted March 15, 2007 It's a good thing the NAE condemned the torture. Until now, I didn't know what I was supposed to think. I just hope they never condemn meth-amphetamine fueled gay sex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumbo Posted March 15, 2007 Share Posted March 15, 2007 Yes I do. Catholics own all property in the name of the Pope in tandum. And yes I know if your not baptized too. We keep lists. I thought we weren't supposed to talk about the lists. :whoknows: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMS Posted March 15, 2007 Share Posted March 15, 2007 Good - then you should know I was baptized and therefore it should be 'ours', not 'yours'. They used tap water.... You're out!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rincewind Posted March 15, 2007 Share Posted March 15, 2007 They used tap water.... You're out!! BLAST! Foiled again. :mad: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sisyphus Posted March 15, 2007 Author Share Posted March 15, 2007 But, what if he didn't give his followers a powerful brain? (Ducking.) Right-winger PJ O'Rourke had an observation on that subject. Commenting on the large number of small headed, fat people in the bible belt he reflected: "I've always figured that if God wanted us to go to church a lot He'd have given us bigger behinds to sit on and smaller heads to think with." He also said: "Making fun of born-again Christians is like hunting dairy cows with a high powered rifle and scope." His comments would be worthy of a whole thread ... but even PJ understands the word liberal: "Liberal" is, of course, one of those fine English words, like lady, gay and welfare, which has been spoiled by special pleading. When I say liberals I certainly don't mean openhanded individuals or tolerant persons or even Big Government Democrats. I mean people who are excited that one percent of the profits of Ben & Jerry's ice cream goes to promote world peace." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted March 15, 2007 Share Posted March 15, 2007 Guess I picked the wrong week to give up heroin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
headexplode Posted March 15, 2007 Share Posted March 15, 2007 Guess I picked the wrong week to give up heroin. Every week is the wrong week to give up heroin. You know that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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