To the Christians that support the death penalty....why?

[Popeman38]

You used the below point on page 2 of this debate:

But if only god can judge us, wouldn't the justified killing of someone involve judging them? In fact would it not be the ultimate judgment - something we're supposed to leave to god?

When called on using the Christian point of view to make a point, and then claiming the point is irrelevent to you, you say this:

Its not my fault if you can't grasp a simple argument. Whether or not the bible says we shouldn't judge people is irrelevant to me, because I don't follow the bible. So telling me "You think Ted Bundy should be walking the streets!" is ridiculous hyperbole, because I don't think that. I don't have a book telling me this.

And your argument that the Death Penalty is law is a little off-base as well. Its a punishment for breaking the law; not the same as laws that you and I must follow. We are talking about the morality of the death penalty, not whether or not its legal. By that argument, you should support abortion, because its legal. America says abortion is legal. So be it. End of story. Move on.

You are correct here. Abortion is legal, and we abide by that. Doesn't mean we have to be happy with it and not work to have it overturned. Just as some seek to remove any religion from the public square. Jesus said, "Render unto the Romans that which is the Romans" when questioned on the issue of the legality of taxes. The same logic can be used to adhere to the death penalty. But not to abortion.

[jrockster21]

Whether or not the bible says we shouldn't judge people is irrelevant to you? Then why are you having any discussion here other than incite others??

You speak of morality with regards to the death penalty? Is the same moral discussion valid for abortions?

By your logic you should be against abortion. No?

I haven't stated my opinion on the death penalty yet, but nice try.

Way to duck the obvious though - please answer: If you support the death penalty because America says you should, shouldn't you support abortion for the same reasons?

[jrockster21]

You used the below point on page 2 of this debate:

When called on using the Christian point of view to make a point, and then claiming the point is irrelevent to you, you say this:

I'm trying to understand the Christian point of view; since I am not Christian, what the bible says is irrelevant to my beliefs, yes. Why is that such a hard concept to grasp??

You are correct here. Abortion is legal, and we abide by that. Doesn't mean we have to be happy with it and not work to have it overturned. Just as some seek to remove any religion from the public square. Jesus said, "Render unto the Romans that which is the Romans" when questioned on the issue of the legality of taxes. The same logic can be used to adhere to the death penalty. But not to abortion.

My mistake...misread the post. Comment stricken from the record.

[Major Harris]

Oh you do, do you? So what of the Christians who protest outside of abortion clinics and even more extreme the Christians who blow them up?

is there something wrong w/ protesting now?

as far as the ones who blow them up, you are taking a very, very small minority of extremists and applying it to the whole. you know better.

[Popeman38]

I'm trying to understand the Christian point of view; since I am not Christian, what the bible says is irrelevant to my beliefs, yes. Why is that such a hard concept to grasp??

You used the Christian POV to make a point. You didn't ask whether this is how Christians believe or why. Trying to claim interest now look petty.

Oh you do, do you? So what of the Christians who protest outside of abortion clinics and even more extreme the Christians who blow them up?

Is every Muslim a terrorist? No, so to lump Christians in with people that blow up abortion clinics is just as assinine. And Americans using their Constitutional rights to express their displeasure. Wow, what a concept. At one point, blacks were not afforded the same rights as whites. So people protested. Eventually the law was changed. And you have a problem with this why?

[EersSkins05]

You speak of morality with regards to the death penalty? Is the same moral discussion valid for abortions?

By your logic you should be against abortion. No?

You keep trying to squeeze abortion into this debate. It doesn't apply. We've covered this.

[jrockster21]

is there something wrong w/ protesting now?

No, nothing wrong with protesting. But according to Popeman and portisizzle, they follow the laws that America has dictated, which is why they support the death penalty. However abortion is also leagal according to America, so logically they should support that as well, right? By protesting a law, you are clearly saying you do not support that law. There is no way to support a law and protest it at the same time.

as far as the ones who blow them up, you are taking a very, very small minority of extremists and applying it to the whole. you know better.

I didn't lump all Christians together with abortion clinic bombers - please re-read my post.

You used the Christian POV to make a point. You didn't ask whether this is how Christians believe or why. Trying to claim interest now look petty.

I used the Christian POV to make a point about Christians. Since I'm not a Christian, it doesn't apply to me. :doh:

Is every Muslim a terrorist? No, so to lump Christians in with people that blow up abortion clinics is just as assinine.

Again, I did not lump all Christians together with abortion clinic bombers. That was not my intent. I even said in the extreme case when referring to them.

And Americans using their Constitutional rights to express their displeasure. Wow, what a concept. At one point, blacks were not afforded the same rights as whites. So people protested. Eventually the law was changed. And you have a problem with this why?

I don't have a problem with this at all. In fact, if I were alive back then, I would have been protesting right along with them. Funny you should metion this though, because the majority of people protesting AGAINST racial equality were good old, god-fearing Christians.

[Major Harris]

No, nothing wrong with protesting. But according to Popeman and portisizzle, they follow the laws that America has dictated, which is why they support the death penalty. However abortion is also leagal according to America, so logically they should support that as well, right? By protesting a law, you are clearly saying you do not support that law. There is no way to support a law and protest it at the same time.

i'll have to re-read through and see where they said that.

I didn't lump all Christians together with abortion clinic bombers - please re-read my post.

then what exactly was your point?

I don't have a problem with this at all. In fact, if I were alive back then, I would have been protesting right along with them. Funny you should metion this though, because the majority of people protesting AGAINST racial equality were good old, god-fearing Christians.

i'd love to see you back that up.

[Popeman38]

No, nothing wrong with protesting. But according to Popeman and portisizzle, they follow the laws that America has dictated, which is why they support the death penalty. However abortion is also leagal according to America, so logically they should support that as well, right? By protesting a law, you are clearly saying you do not support that law. There is no way to support a law and protest it at the same time.

So, I guess all those that claim they support the soldiers while being against the war are full of it, huh? We follow the law. This does not mean we have to agree with the law. How many would remove ourselves from taxation if given the option? I could retire if I had all my taxes back.

How many churches provide grief counseling to those that have had an abortion and regret it? How many churches turn people away because they have had or support abortion?

I don't have a problem with this at all. In fact, if I were alive back then, I would have been protesting right along with them. Funny you should metion this though, because the majority of people protesting AGAINST racial equality were good old, god-fearing Christians.

And scientist at one time thought the earth was flat. Let's throw science out the window too. This has been fun, but the work day is through and now I have to have dinner and get to class. Peace...

[jrockster21]

i'll have to re-read through and see where they said that.

Popeman said "abide," portissizzle said they just let it be.

http://www.extremeskins.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3457028&postcount=73

then what exactly was your point?

I quoted an entire section of his post, instead of quoting the part I was referring too; will edit to make my point clearer.

i'd love to see you back that up.

You're going to have to wait, because I'm at work. But the majority of white-Americans in the 50's and 60's were Christians, just like they are now.

[jrockster21]

So, I guess all those that claim they support the soldiers while being against the war are full of it, huh?

Supporting the soldiers while against the war are not mutually exclusive. They are two different things; one is a foreign policy, the other are human beings.

We follow the law. This does not mean we have to agree with the law. How many would remove ourselves from taxation if given the option? I could retire if I had all my taxes back.

Now you are rambling.

How many churches provide grief counseling to those that have had an abortion and regret it? How many churches turn people away because they have had or support abortion?

I have no idea. What is your point?

And scientist at one time thought the earth was flat. Let's throw science out the window too. This has been fun, but the work day is through and now I have to have dinner and get to class. Peace...

:paranoid: You've really lost me at this point. Hope when you get back you can clarify those last ramblings for me.

[Major Harris]

You're going to have to wait, because I'm at work. But the majority of white-Americans in the 50's and 60's were Christians, just like they are now.

i guess it's what you consider christian. is it something you check on for a survey, or something you live by...which is probably part of what you've been trying to say.

[portisizzle]

I haven't stated my opinion on the death penalty yet, but nice try.

Way to duck the obvious though - please answer: If you support the death penalty because America says you should, shouldn't you support abortion for the same reasons?

JRock, I thought you said you wanted a moral debate...... :doh:

But to answer your question simply put yes. This is a country based upon rule of law.

Now answer my question. Why are you debating something that is irrlevant to you?

[Coach Williams]

Christian & Death penalty are oxymorons

IMO you aren't Christian if you try to justify an unessessary death......there's a huge difference between *KILL or BE KILLED* and killing someone just because they killed someone else.....

[twa]

I support the death penalty simply because it is a fitting punishment for the ultimate crime.

I certainly do not oppose reform in trials and proof needed to insure guilt and in case of doubt a life sentence is called for.

Can anyone opposed to the death penalty explain why a proven murderer should live?

Can you also explain why the victims family should live with the knowledge the murderer still is eating,breathing,and enjoying what pleasures life still affords in prison?

You make life hell on earth for convicted murderers and I will live with life sentences.

[jrockster21]

I support the death penalty simply because it is a fitting punishment for the ultimate crime.

Yeah, but who's to say what the ultimate crime is? Is it murder? How about if somebody just rapes and beats a woman until she can't walk any more. Is that guy less heinous than a murderer? How about a child-molestor? What about 2nd degree murder? What about manslaughter? Where do you draw the line? (note: I already know the line is drawn by the government, but that is not the point).

You make life hell on earth for convicted murderers and I will live with life sentences.

I am still undecided about the death penalty, but this is one thing I agree with - our prisons are much to soft at the moment.

[Major Harris]

, but this is one thing I agree with - our prisons are much to soft at the moment.

i agree totally, but that line just reminded me of a chris rock stand up bit. :laugh:

[twa]

Yeah, but who's to say what the ultimate crime is? Is it murder? How about if somebody just rapes and beats a woman until she can't walk any more. Is that guy less heinous than a murderer? How about a child-molestor? What about 2nd degree murder? What about manslaughter? Where do you draw the line? (note: I already know the line is drawn by the government, but that is not the point).

I personally don't have much of a line and would be rather liberal in application of death for heinous crimes,but to address your point murder robs you of LIFE and nothing else compares...even rape,crippling or torture leave you with something.

I am still undecided about the death penalty, but this is one thing I agree with - our prisons are much to soft at the moment.

I think prisons are in need of reform,both to improve conditions and safety for minor offenses and make them hell for the ones we let off to lightly.

[jrockster21]

i agree totally, but that line just reminded me of a chris rock stand up bit. :laugh:

:laugh: Missed that one. But Chris Rock is one funny mother****er! :laugh:

"Where are you?"

"Martin Luther King Boulevard."

"RUUUUUUUUUUUUUUNNNNN!!!"

:laugh:

[Major Harris]

:laugh: Missed that one. But Chris Rock is one funny mother****er! :laugh:

"Where are you?"

"Martin Luther King Boulevard."

"RUUUUUUUUUUUUUUNNNNN!!!"

:laugh:

you don't recall the bit?

"people say jails are too easy. yo, jails are ****ED up....."

goes on to talk about the HBO jail special, the tossed salad man, etc. :laugh:

[jrockster21]

you don't recall the bit?

"people say jails are too easy. yo, jails are ****ED up....."

goes on to talk about the HBO jail special, the tossed salad man, etc. :laugh:

:laugh: I don't remember that. It sort of sounds familiar, and I can hear Chris Rock say it, but I don't remember it. :laugh:

[dfitzo53]

goes on to talk about the HBO jail special, the tossed salad man, etc. :laugh:

Personally, I prefer syrup.

[Major Harris]

Personally, I prefer syrup.

if a man is sucking yo' dick, he can pretend it's something else. if he's eatin' ass, he knows it's ass!

:rotflmao:

[LightAgent]

I'm a Christian and against the death penalty and a pacifist. For me its the only position consistent with the teachings of Christ;

Matthew 5:38-48 38 "You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' 39 But I say to you, Do not resist an evildoer. But if anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn the other also; 40 and if anyone wants to sue you and take your coat, give your cloak as well; 41 and if anyone forces you to go one mile, go also the second mile. 42 Give to everyone who begs from you, and do not refuse anyone who wants to borrow from you. 43 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be children of your Father in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the righteous and on the unrighteous. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet only your brothers and sisters, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

I've been in this debate so many times it makes my head hurt, and for too many years I was on the wrong side of it, trying to justify both war and the death penalty, only now when I read the words of Christ I must in the end believe it when he says;

Matthew 6:14-15 14 For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you; 15 but if you do not forgive others, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

and

Romans 12:19-21 19 Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave room for the wrath of God; for it is written, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord." 20 No, "if your enemies are hungry, feed them; if they are thirsty, give them something to drink; for by doing this you will heap burning coals on their heads." 21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

I find it ironic that in every attempt to argue for the death penalty and war there is a complete lack of use of the words of Christ, but always an appeal to the Old Testament even though Jesus was obviously expounding upon the Old Testament and deepening the teachings held within the Old Testament.

:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :point2sky

[cjcdaman]

To answer the original question, "an eye for an eye". That's why I agree with it.