To the Christians that support the death penalty....why?

[Insomniac]

i have read the bible, and believe some of it, but like everything else, it has flaws. that is why i'm not a religious person. i do believe in the death penalty regardless.

you can say innocent people are executed every year, which may be true, but i'm sure the overwhelming majority are guilty.

people say we should let them rot in jail this idea is stupid, because that's not punishment. give anyone the choice, and you'll see. also, i don't see the point of letting someone live, and making all of us taxpayers support their sorry asses, while they continue to commit crimes, including murder, in prison.

murderers deserve to die, bottom line, by any means neccessary. that is the ultimate penalty for killing someone. the only exception to this rule, for example, is if someone breaks into your house and threates your family, and you kill them as a defensive method, then it's fine, it's justified.

also, i think we should add pedophiles and rapists to the death penalty list as well. their act is worse than murder, because the victim has to live with being violated, after their soul and spirit have been killed.

kill em all.:2cents:

[portisizzle]

But if only god can judge us, wouldn't the justified killing of someone involve judging them? In fact would it not be the ultimate judgment - something we're supposed to leave to god?

By your gold standard God would be against us judging criminals guilty and sending them to prison.

You for allowing Ted Bundy on the streets? :laugh: or are you just arguing to hear yourself argue?

[EersSkins05]

^^^ people on death row made decisions that put them there, an aborted fetus made no decisions at all. 2 completely different subjects.

You're assuming that the people on death row are all guilty, which it has been proven time again that a healthy percentage aren't.

If anything the contradiction is with the liberal left.

Keep mommy killers alive - kill unborn babies.

From a moral standpoint I know where I feel more comfortable.

What if you don't believe that the mommies are killing humans? I know from my own standpoint, I don't think that I'm killing a chicken every time I have an egg salad sandwich.

Here's the real contradiction: Why is it that we execute people that don't plead guilty to the murders they've committed (meaning that their guilt is subjective), but give life sentences (or less) to the ones that do (the ones we know unequivocally are guilty)?

And the real answer to question posed by the thread is that the Christians who support the death penalty pick and choose the portions of the Bible they want to enforce based on the given circumstance.

If you believe that strongly in eye for an eye and the wrath encouraged by the Old Testament, you really should be Jewish.

[AsburySkinsFan]

I'm a Christian and against the death penalty and a pacifist. For me its the only position consistent with the teachings of Christ;

Matthew 5:38-48 38 "You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' 39 But I say to you, Do not resist an evildoer. But if anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn the other also; 40 and if anyone wants to sue you and take your coat, give your cloak as well; 41 and if anyone forces you to go one mile, go also the second mile. 42 Give to everyone who begs from you, and do not refuse anyone who wants to borrow from you. 43 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be children of your Father in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the righteous and on the unrighteous. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet only your brothers and sisters, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

I've been in this debate so many times it makes my head hurt, and for too many years I was on the wrong side of it, trying to justify both war and the death penalty, only now when I read the words of Christ I must in the end believe it when he says;

Matthew 6:14-15 14 For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you; 15 but if you do not forgive others, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

and

Romans 12:19-21 19 Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave room for the wrath of God; for it is written, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord." 20 No, "if your enemies are hungry, feed them; if they are thirsty, give them something to drink; for by doing this you will heap burning coals on their heads." 21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

I find it ironic that in every attempt to argue for the death penalty and war there is a complete lack of use of the words of Christ, but always an appeal to the Old Testament even though Jesus was obviously expounding upon the Old Testament and deepening the teachings held within the Old Testament.

[Midnight Judges]

The Christian right is not against abortion for "religious" reasons. They are against it because they view it as legalized murder, much the same as the view euthanasia as legalized murder.

Dobson has been quite outspoken on capital punishment. It is just not a major issue/lightning rod, as abortion is. As it is legal in a large number of states, there is no need to move this issue into the national spotlight.

I thought "life begins at conception" had its roots in Christianity but I guess I was mistaken.

edit: that was not a good source.

[AsburySkinsFan]

I have to say, there has not yet been a satisfactory response from the Christian right. Many evangelicals are against abortion for religious reasons, and they don't seem to hold back when it comes to legislating morality on that subject, so why don't evangelicals ever try to legislate the murder commandment? Maybe it happens sometimes but where are the Dobsons and the Fallwells on capital punishment and what are their biblical reasons?

Please don't confuse Conservatives with Evangelicals, they are not necessarily one in the same.

[portisizzle]

What if you don't believe that the mommies are killing humans?

Whatever helps you sleep at night.

[Midnight Judges]

Please don't confuse Conservatives with Evangelicals, they are not necessarily one in the same.

I never said anything about conservatives.

[AsburySkinsFan]

I'm not saying that to agitate - its a fact, and a reasonable argument in any biblical debate. Some Christians read the bible and live by what is most convenient for them; its a fact of life. As a preacher, I'm sure you see this every day.

You're right, I just caution the wide sweeping statements that aren't substantiated (not to say that they can't be substantiated) but when left on their own the reader is left to assume the implications and the possible ways to substantiate the statement.

[AsburySkinsFan]

I never said anything about conservatives.

But, you see Falwell etc may say that he is an Evangelical, but he really isn't, he's a Right Wing conservative who mis-uses Christianity to defend his position.

[Popeman38]

You're assuming that the people on death row are all guilty, which it has been proven time again that a healthy percentage aren't.

A small percentage, yes. A healthy percentage? A little stretch, I would say...

What if you don't believe that the mommies are killing humans? I know from my own standpoint, I don't think that I'm killing a chicken every time I have an egg salad sandwich.

You can't be serious? The eggs harvested from chickens are unfertilized. That means that these eggs, if not eaten by humans, would rot. An abortion is the termination of a fertilized egg (at the loosest interpretation). I will support an abortion when someone can demonstrate that a naturally fertilized egg in a woman has ever turned out to be a non-human.

Here's the real contradiction: Why is it that we execute people that don't plead guilty to the murders they've committed (meaning that their guilt is subjective), but give life sentences (or less) to the ones that do (the ones we know unequivocally are guilty)?

No contradiction there. Most admitted killers do so to avoid the death penelty because they are offered a plea deal. In other words, you recognize that you have broken the law and amit that you are guilty and show remorse -vs- I know you have my DNA in her and on the knife but I swear it wasn't me (used for illustration).

And the real answer to question posed by the thread is that the Christians who support the death penalty pick and choose the portions of the Bible they want to enforce based on the given circumstance.

Your opinion, I am assuming? Because you can not speak for everyone, and not for me. The Bible lays out some guidelines on how to live.

[techboy]

I'm a Christian and against the death penalty and a pacifist. For me its the only position consistent with the teachings of Christ;

...

None of these verses, of course, have anything to do with the State.

Your position is reasonable, but you are extrapolating clear commandments for the individual into governmental policy, so I think it's also reasonable for a Christian to feel that the State is a seperate category, especially since the only government God directly set up (Israel) had the death penalty.

[Stuckinphilly1]

Because people are religious only when its convenient for them to do so.

ABSOF***INGLUTELYL!!!!! I didn't bother reading the thread once I saw this post because there is not a much better statement to sum up the Christian Right as this!!!!

NOT ONE!!!! Except maybe extremists.

[Popeman38]

ABSOF***INGLUTELYL!!!!! I didn't bother reading the thread once I saw this post because there is not a much better statement to sum up the Christian Right as this!!!!

NOT ONE!!!! Except maybe extremists.

Says God in a booming voice. Oh, wait. Just a man? And every bit as fallable as a Christian? Say it ain't so...

[EersSkins05]

Whatever helps you sleep at night.

Wow, self-righteous much?

[AsburySkinsFan]

Your opinion, I am assuming? Because you can not speak for everyone, and not for me. The Bible lays out some guidelines on how to live.

Yet the death penalty can only be Biblically supported when you are allowed to dismiss what Jesus says. Scripture must be taken as a whole, it cannot be pulled apart like the verses were pieces of a puzzle to be removed from the entire portrait. You have to take what Jesus says too, and Jesus says some pretty strong statements about "letting those who have no sin cast the first stone" and much more about forgiving your enemies, and loving your neighbors. I find it most difficult to rationalize the death penalty with loving my neighbor as myself, please remember that the victim and the accused are both our neighbors, also remember that the woman caught in the act of adultery was quite guilty, and the Law says that she was to be taken outside the city walls and stoned. Do you then advocate the stoning of adulterers? If not then why is it that you don't want to follow ALL of the law?

[Mr. S]

im not sure if this was supposed to turn into an abortion argument as well. Either way, they believe that a person who does something soo vile in taking anothers life has given up their own right to life.

I am pretty torn on the issue, I definitely condone it in certain cases (Timothy McVeigh, Saddam), but in other cases, I don't. One story I heard from my teacher one time was, they went to visit the people in for life in prison. They asked each why they were in and what they did, one guy says "I killed my neighbor...because he raped my daughter". Sure he wasn't on death row, but I don't think he should necessarily be in for life either.

[Midnight Judges]

But, you see Falwell etc may say that he is an Evangelical, but he really isn't, he's a Right Wing conservative who mis-uses Christianity to defend his position.

I agree 100% but I'm kinda surprised to hear that coming from you. How would you classify their followers then? Are they victims or are they also politico-religious opportunists? Or a mix?

[portisizzle]

Wow, self-righteous much?

Ever-see-statistics-on-how-many-abortions-since-1972-much?

I would be in denial too so I could sleep if I thought abortions were a good deal.

[Popeman38]

Yet the death penalty can only be Biblically supported when you are allowed to dismiss what Jesus says. Scripture must be taken as a whole, it cannot be pulled apart like the verses were pieces of a puzzle to be removed from the entire portrait. You have to take what Jesus says too, and Jesus says some pretty strong statements about "letting those who have no sin cast the first stone" and much more about forgiving your enemies, and loving your neighbors. I find it most difficult to rationalize the death penalty with loving my neighbor as myself, please remember that the victim and the accused are both our neighbors, also remember that the woman caught in the act of adultery was quite guilty, and the Law says that she was to be taken outside the city walls and stoned. Do you then advocate the stoning of adulterers? If not then why is it that you don't want to follow ALL of the law?

I was speaking of his labeling those that support the death penelty as picking and choosing what to ignore. I went to a Southern Baptist school (k5-12th Grade) and had to take a Bible class every year. From 6th grade on we had to dissect the NT Gospels verse by verse with a concordance and dictionairy to try to fully understand the teachings of Christ. Although I think this went to the point of making teens tune it out and just doing the work.

I am torn on the issue as I stated in my opening post. But since it is a law, I feel confident in supporting it.

[AsburySkinsFan]

None of these verses, of course, have anything to do with the State.

Your position is reasonable, but you are extrapolating clear commandments for the individual into governmental policy, so I think it's also reasonable for a Christian to feel that the State is a seperate category, especially since the only government God directly set up (Israel) had the death penalty.

But the State can never be separated from the people, because the State is the people. Once the State is separated from the people then the state can be allowed to do all sorts of heinous acts because people can then just say, "hey its the state's responsibility, not mine." And that is dangerous.

Also I have to disagree with your statement that the only government that God set us was Israel, because Israel was simply a reflection of the Kingdom of God which is a government that is lived out in the lives of people, yet is does not have earthly borders. Think of it like a nation/population without a country.

Also the fact that Israel had the death penalty means nothing, except that God allowed certain activities then because people were corrupt, in the same way that God allowed for divorce;

Matthew 19:8 He said to them, "It was because you were so hard-hearted that Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so.

In the same way Israel prior to the Christ was permitted capital punishment, but even then they recognized that this was not permissable all the time, because the Romans refused to allow them to perform capital punishment, thus the dilemma that they tried to place Jesus in when they brought to him the woman caught in adultery.

[Stuckinphilly1]

Says God in a booming voice. Oh, wait. Just a man? And every bit as fallable as a Christian? Say it ain't so...

I don't understand a word of what you meant by this???? And I don't think you should be putting words in the Lord's mouth.

If Christ was walking the Earth right now I'm 100% sure He'd agree with JRock's statement that I quoted.

Perfect example is that idiot we call our president. It's okay for him to allow a pre-emptive(sp???) strike against a Country that did nothing to harm us, kill thousands of innocent civilians and hold captive hundreds of people the government might think of as a threat.

I'm not saying that I agree or disagree with the war, I'm just using that current situation to show that our Bible thumping president has caused the death of thousands, ignoring what the Bible preaches but hides behind it when it come to issues like stem cell research and abortion.

But I'm sure you'll be able to come up with a way to defend, you are the Popeman right...

[AsburySkinsFan]

I agree 100% but I'm kinda surprised to hear that coming from you. How would you classify their followers then? Are they victims or are they also politico-religious opportunists? Or a mix?

I would say a mixture. I'm an Evangelical, but I am not a Right Wing Conservative, I think many that listen to Falwell are simply misled, others use the position in much the same way that Falwell does as "politico-religious opportunists".

[AsburySkinsFan]

I am torn on the issue as I stated in my opening post. But since it is a law, I feel confident in supporting it.

Be very careful in supporting something simply because its a law, countries are allowed to do very bad things by taking advantage of this approach.

With all hesitancy I bring this up.

But it was this approach was the same approach that kept the church in large part silent in Germany during the 1930's.

[techboy]

Yet the death penalty can only be Biblically supported when you are allowed to dismiss what Jesus says. Scripture must be taken as a whole, it cannot be pulled apart like the verses were pieces of a puzzle to be removed from the entire portrait. You have to take what Jesus says too, and Jesus says some pretty strong statements about "letting those who have no sin cast the first stone" and much more about forgiving your enemies, and loving your neighbors.

Oh, come off it. It is very possible to adhere to everything Jesus says and still support the death penalty. As I noted earlier, Jesus dealt with the individual. The death penalty is implemented by the State. It's fine if you want to extrapolate, but you can't make the case that we have to, especially since if we fully extrapolated the sayings of Jesus to the State, the State would have to forgive criminals, and let them go, since jail would be "casting the first stone".

Maintaining that the individual should forgive but the state must mete out justice is valid, reasonable, and wholly consistent with the Bible.

Jesus never made any explicit statements regarding the death penalty, and the only mentions in the rest of the Bible involve God ordering it, so there is clearly room for reasonable people to disagree, and it's certainly not as clear-cut as you'd have people believe.

I find it most difficult to rationalize the death penalty with loving my neighbor as myself, please remember that the victim and the accused are both our neighbors, also remember that the woman caught in the act of adultery was quite guilty, and the Law says that she was to be taken outside the city walls and stoned. Do you then advocate the stoning of adulterers? If not then why is it that you don't want to follow ALL of the law?

I expect this kind of hyperbole from uniformed skeptics, not pastors. The stoning of adulterers is part of Israeli civil law. Since we don't live in Biblical Israel, this hardly applies. Christ fulfilled the need for Ceremonial Law, so it no longer applies, and Biblical Israeli Civil Law is hardly in effect today either. We don't just toss out the entire Old Testament, though.

I felt it was necessary to respond so that people don't get the wrong idea from you, but I shall not again. I have been violating my own rule against keeping "In House" debates "In House", and I hate violating my own rules.