Question for Christians

[rebornempowered]

2nd- If Adam and Eve were the first 2 people created and had 2 sons Cain and Able how did they go on to populate the world? Was it incest? Always heard incest was the best!:laugh:

I only have time to field one question so I will take number two.

God did not forbid brothers and sisters getting married until Leviticus 18. If man was created perfect there would have been no genetic problems with close relation reproducing because of a lack of genetic defects in each person. As people moved further from the fall the number of genetic problems would have increased and so I believe God put an end to this practice in Leviticus 18 because of this.

[AsburySkinsFan]

Asbury,I have a question.Please explain this:

Luke 16

22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame

Now,clearly both lived in Abraham's time and clearly both were not at the same place,or in Sheol,as you say.Or was Abraham's bosom also located in hell? :whoknows:

First of all this is a parable about the Rich-man and Lazarus which is not about explaining Heaven and Hell, but about how we are to treat each other on earth and about foreshadowing Christ's death and resurrection, this is not a literal story of an event that happened it is a figurative story to illustrate an eternal principle. Second, even if we are to take the cosmology of this parable literally (which I don't think we can) it still doesn't arrive at the Augustinian system of Heaven and Hell, because they are obviously sharing the same sort of space because they are able to communicate back and forth across the chasm. Yet, if you were to ask people today concerning Heaven and Hell they would say that hell is the complete separation from God. Now if someone is able to see into "Abraham's bossom" would that be total separation? Hardly.

Read through the Psalms etc and in each of the places that are translated as Hell or Hades, the word that is used in each of these places is Sheol, which was simply the place of the dead, where all of the dead go.

So now a question back to you. If heaven and the afterlife is as Augustine and others present then how are we to have a physical resurrection like Christ, and where is the New Heaven and New Earth that is promised in Revelation?

[shk75]

wow i did not realize my one question would spark a whole thread like this...cool. anyways one thing i want to make clear is that no one should be attcked for their belief and i like having an open debate because that is the only way you can learn about things you would otherwise be ignorant to. anywho i have a question too, is it true that during the apoclypse jesus will reveal himself to all dead and alive and if you did not believe in him before once you see him you can switch your beliefs and as long as you were a good person you will go to heaven?

[AsburySkinsFan]

I was dragged to a sermon once and one of the things brought up was "What about people that have never heard of Jesus or God? What happens to them?" The pastor then proceeded to make quite possibly the worst argument (which has been made twice in here already) I think I have ever heard.

He simply stated that someone who had never heard of God, no matter where they be, could simply deduce from his surroundings that there HAD to be a God. This person would say "Wow! Look at these trees! The sky!! The grass! There is no way I made all of this!" I almost had to burst out laughing thinking that people actually believe this.

What about mentally ill kids? Do they get a free ride too? Or do they realize that God made them retarded and so therefore they're also going to Heaven?

The argument that he was attempting to make was one called "Natural Revelation", and many times it is a poorly made argument presented much like you have presented, however the argument is much more complex, and it involves the ideas that people naturally can tell that there is a difference between good things and bad things, etc. Obviously there is more to this argument but it is much more than "being saved by pretty sunsets, and the grand canyon."

[AsburySkinsFan]

wow i did not realize my one question would spark a whole thread like this...cool. anyways one thing i want to make clear is that no one should be attcked for their belief and i like having an open debate because that is the only way you can learn about things you would otherwise be ignorant to.

You don't hang out in the tailgate much do you?

anywho i have a question too, is it true that during the apoclypse jesus will reveal himself to all dead and alive and if you did not believe in him before once you see him you can switch your beliefs and as long as you were a good person you will go to heaven?

The apocalypse as I understand it will be an instantaneous event and not the long drawn out process covering 1000's of years as presented in pop-culture and Dispensational theology (i.e. The Left Behind series).

[rincewind]

I only have time to field one question so I will take number two.

God did not forbid brothers and sisters getting married until Leviticus 18. If man was created perfect there would have been no genetic problems with close relation reproducing because of a lack of genetic defects in each person. As people moved further from the fall the number of genetic problems would have increased and so I believe God put an end to this practice in Leviticus 18 because of this.

But there were no sisters, right? Just Cain, Able, Adam, and Eve. Who got to play the role of Oedipus?

[70th Week]

Now if someone is able to see into "Abraham's bossom" would that be total separation? Hardly.

So now a question back to you. So now a question back to you. If heaven and the afterlife is as Augustine and others present then how are we to have a physical resurrection like Christ, and where is the New Heaven and New Earth that is promised in Revelation?

I learned from God's Word that when those of us who are Christians die, our spirits never lose their consciousness (Phils. 1:23). Instead, our fully conscious spirits are immediately ushered into the presence of Jesus by His holy angels (2 Cor. 5:8).

Our spirits remain in the Lord's presence until He appears for His Church. At that time, He brings our spirits with Him, resurrects our bodies, reunites our spirits with our bodies, and then glorifies our bodies, perfecting them and rendering them eternal (1 Thess 4:13-18).

We return with Him to Heaven in our glorified bodies where we are judged for our works to determine our degrees of rewards (2 Cor. 5:10). When this judgment is completed, we participate in a glorious wedding feast to celebrate the union of Jesus and His Bride, the Church (Rev. 19:7-9).

At the conclusion of the feast, we burst from the heavens with Jesus, returning with Him to the earth in glory (Rev. 19:14). We witness His victory at Armageddon,as He is crowned King of kings and Lord of lords, and we revel in His glory as He begins to reign over all the earth from Mt. Zion in Jerusalem (Zech. 14:1-9; Rev. 19:17-21).

For a thousand years we participate in that reign, assisting Him with the instruction, administration, and enforcement of His perfect laws (Rev. 20:1-6). We see the earth regenerated and nature reconciled (Isa. 11:6-9). We see holiness abound and the earth flooded with peace, righteousness and justice (Micah 4:1-7).

At the end of the Millennium we witness the release of Satan to deceive the nations. We see the truly despicable nature of the heart of Man as millions rally to Satan in his attempt to overthrow the throne of Jesus. But we will witness God's supernatural destruction of Satan's armies and see Satan himself cast into Hell (lake of fire) where he will be tormented forever (Rev. 20:7-10).

We will next witness the Great White Throne Judgment when the unrighteous are resurrected to stand before God. We will see perfect holiness and justice in action as God pronounces His terrible judgment upon this congregation of the damned who have rejected His gift of love and mercy in Jesus Christ (Rev. 20:11-13).

Jesus will be fully vindicated as every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that He is Lord. Then the unrighteous will receive their just reward as they are cast into Hell (lake of fire) (Rev. 20:14-15).

Now if someone is able to see into "Abraham's bossom" would that be total separation? Hardly.

now as I stated in an earlier post,paradise was emptied when Jesus was in the heart of the earth ministering to those.They are now in heaven.

[Zguy28]

But there were no sisters, right? Just Cain, Able, Adam, and Eve. Who got to play the role of Oedipus?

I think we have been down the "Where did Cain's wife come from" road several times previous.

If you insist, we can again...

[rincewind]

I think we have been down the "Where did Cain's wife come from" road several times previous.

If you insist, we can again...

Could you give my the Cliff Notes version?

Also - I was going off of what reborn said.

[rebornempowered]

But there were no sisters, right? Just Cain, Able, Adam, and Eve. Who got to play the role of Oedipus?

Nobody.

After Seth was born, Adam lived 800 years and had other sons and daughters.

Genesis 5:4 NIV

[ProBowler]

I only have time to field one question so I will take number two.

God did not forbid brothers and sisters getting married until Leviticus 18. If man was created perfect there would have been no genetic problems with close relation reproducing because of a lack of genetic defects in each person. As people moved further from the fall the number of genetic problems would have increased and so I believe God put an end to this practice in Leviticus 18 because of this.

Maybe I asked these questions before in bad taste. Sorry, if I offended anyone. I should have just been blunt without trying to be a smart ass.

I have never gotten an answer to my adam and eve question, Thanks.

I know the answer to my first question also, the serpent is Satan but what confuses me is that there is religons who actually worshiped the Serpent people who are actually supposed to be older than christianity. Isn't the symbol of christianity the "Fish" and isn't this from the story in the bible where Jesus fed a bunch of people with only 2 fish?

I'm not a bible scholar but I am almost positive that there is a line in there about not eating nothing with scales.(fish?) I think it's right there with the part about not being able to be harmed by poisonous snakes if you have the holy spirit.

What is up with the contradiction, or am I missing something somewhere? It seems to me that the serpent/fish is being used to represent good and evil at different times.

[rebornempowered]

I know the answer to my first question also, the serpent is Satan but what confuses me is that there is religons who actually worshiped the Serpent people who are actually supposed to be older than christianity.

I am not sure but in "On the Origin of the World" a Gnostic text dating in the late 2nd century the serpent is made out to be the good guy because he delivers knowledge to Adam and Eve. Yaldaboath (Gnostic name for God the Father in On the Origin of the World) is considered evil for having created flesh. Gnostics viewed anything material as a bad thing.

I am not sure if this is what you are referring to. You mentioned something prior to the time of Christ which this would not be. Just offering what I know.......which isn't much.

[twa]

Quote:

So all other religions are basically going to hell?

...

Quote Zguy

Jesus did make it pretty exclusive when he said:

"You know the way to the place where I am going."

Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?"

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."

Again, if they have heard about Christ, yes. If not, well it falls on their conscience, which God the Father has given all of us.

***

TWA

I don't disagree,but for discussion is it possible that someone can come to know God(yet not recognize Jesus) and still be saved?

IMO Jesus is the vehicle (or means,or makes possible) of our salvation and calling on Jesus (or recognizing him as savior) is not necessarily needed.

Does God require recognition of one of his aspects for salvation?

If so, what about the Holy Spirit? Must that also be recognized?

[DeanCollins]

If you have heard the Gospel, then yes.

Jesus did make it pretty exclusive when he said:

"You know the way to the place where I am going."

Raub, bottom line if you don't, one time in your life, say "I accept Jesus as my lord and savior" it's the down elevator for you. So say it once and your in there, or hopefully you'll have time to say at the moment of your dealth

We will endeavor to not be "preachy".

A little late for that isn't it :laugh:

[Zguy28]

Could you give my the Cliff Notes version?

Also - I was going off of what reborn said.

In Genesis there is what appears to be two separate accounts of creation. While some like to draw a contradiction here, in reality they are the same, in parallel, and just from different points of view. So, while Adam et al were the first family, it doesn't mean that God didn't create others as well. After all, "male and female He created them (plural)." And who's to say that their weren't people already? Might there have been Homo Sapiens already? I don't know. Certainly though, Adam was the first Homo Divinus , which is made in God's image, whatever that may entail. At least that's the way I see it.

Nobody.

After Seth was born, Adam lived 800 years and had other sons and daughters.

Genesis 5:4 NIV

That too.

[twa]

Its not the name that necessarily matters when speaking about God. Its His attributes. For example, the Muslims believe they are worshipping the same God as the Christians. Not true. The Christian God (YHWH/Jesus) is incompatible with Allah.

Yes. There is no other name under heaven by which we can be saved. Jesus, the only begotten Son of God.

I feel like I'm picking on you

But we as Christians worship The Creator God,which would be the same as the muslims and jews...though the muslims have a different creation story.

Which brings me back to MUST we recognize ALL aspects of God?

[prophet]

I feel like I'm picking on you

But we as Christians worship The Creator God,which would be the same as the muslims and jews...though the muslims have a different creation story.

Which brings me back to MUST we recognize ALL aspects of God?

muslim god is not the same. Its history is traced back to a moon god.

The Christian faith makes it very clear. Only way to have is to accept Jesus, get forgiveness for your sins, and live faithful to God until the end of your life.

[Zguy28]

I'm not a bible scholar but I am almost positive that there is a line in there about not eating nothing with scales.(fish?)

A jewish regulation in the OT was not to eat any seafood that did not have both scales and fins. Not just one, or the other, but both. Anything else from the sea was considered unclean at the time. Which is smart when you think about it. Those fish are generally the cleanest. Fish with no scales or fins suck up pollutants and toxins by osmosis.

Quote:

So all other religions are basically going to hell?

...

Quote Zguy

Jesus did make it pretty exclusive when he said:

"You know the way to the place where I am going."

Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?"

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."

Again, if they have heard about Christ, yes. If not, well it falls on their conscience, which God the Father has given all of us.

***

I don't disagree,but for discussion is it possible that someone can come to know God(yet not recognize Jesus) and still be saved?

IMO Jesus is the vehicle (or means,or makes possible) of our salvation and calling on Jesus (or recognizing him as savior) is not necessarily needed.

Does God require recognition of one of his aspects for salvation?

If so, what about the Holy Spirit? Must that also be recognized?

Orthodox Christian doctrine is that Jesus is the only Lord and Savior of men. Without submitting to Him as Lord of your life, it is to your ruin.

What you are speaking of is General (or Natural) Revelation and Special Revelation. General Revelation is given to all. It cannot save you. Merely acknowledging God or Jesus or the Holy Spirit is not enough to partake in His grace.

"Faith without works is dead."

A little late for that isn't it :laugh:

I'm sorry, have I been like that in this thread? I apologize if I have.

[prophet]

Raub, bottom line if you don't, one time in your life, say "I accept Jesus as my lord and savior" it's the down elevator for you. So say it once and your in there, or hopefully you'll have time to say at the moment of your dealth

According to the Bible.

Demons believe on Jesus... yet they are not going to heaven.

You can not just say a prayer, and be saved. You must turn from your sin, and live faithful to God until the end. Unless there is true repentence you will not be saved. Saying a prayer does not save.

[rebornempowered]

muslim god is not the same. Its history is traced back to a moon god.

The Christian faith makes it very clear. Only way to have is to accept Jesus, get forgiveness for your sins, and live faithful to God until the end of your life.

Another point would be that Allah is not Triune therefore nothing like the God of the Bible.

[Zguy28]

I feel like I'm picking on you

But we as Christians worship The Creator God,which would be the same as the muslims and jews...though the muslims have a different creation story.

Which brings me back to MUST we recognize ALL aspects of God?

I would suggest you study the Koran and the Bible. See if they are the same God.

Another point would be that Allah is not Triune therefore nothing like the God of the Bible.

Yes. That is the major sticking point between the two.

[twa]

muslim god is not the same. Its history is traced back to a moon god.

The Christian faith makes it very clear. Only way to have is to accept Jesus, get forgiveness for your sins, and live faithful to God until the end of your life.

Living faithful is a requirement???

Does that mean we must EARN salvation?

I thought it was a gift to be accepted,or is God not strong enough to keep those who turn to him?

[prophet]

Living faithful is a requirement???

Does that mean we must EARN salvation?

I thought it was a gift to be accepted,or is God not strong enough to keep those who turn to him?

God does not take your free will away from you... otherwise you would be a puppet.

Grace is free, but you don't have to accept it.

I think john the baptiser says it best... Bearing fruits worth of repentence.

[twa]

I would suggest you study the Koran and the Bible. See if they are the same God.

I have studied it somewhat, but I am handicapped by the fact there can only be ONE GOD.

You can call or believe on another,but there can be only ONE.

[Zguy28]

Living faithful is a requirement???

Does that mean we must EARN salvation?

I thought it was a gift to be accepted,or is God not strong enough to keep those who turn to him?

I for one am not getting drawn into a Calvinist/Arminian debate...