Davis vs Watson

[Thinking Skins]

Does anyone see Davis losing his job to Watson this year? I just think that Watson may be the perfect back for this offense and he is just so good. I see him being our third down back first, then let davis have a bad game like today (not really a bad game, but another costly fumble) and I see the redskins just making a switch.

I think that Watson may be a poor man's Priest Holmes.

[fuji869]

As much as I like Davis it is only time until all the fumbles finally cost him his job with the Redskins.

Yes, I know Stephen has been our work horse for the past 4 seasons and yes he is a big part of our offense but the the fumbles are just getting too costly. I can think of 2 games (@Arizona 00 & @Dallas 01) where his fumbles cost us the game and twice this season where his fumbles set up the other team's O with good field position.

Since I have been a Redskins fan I don't recall a RB that fumbles as much as he does. :shootinth

[Montilar]

Puullease.

Davis fumbles too much? You cant remember any other Rb fumbling that much?

Davis fumbles no more than Riggons did. And a lot less than Joe Washington or Kevin Bryant. Ricky Ervins fumbled. Gerald Riggs fumbled. Byner fumbled. Terry Allen did. They all do.

the problem is Davis is the freshest in your memory (he is the current RB) and when he does have a fumble (usually from his extra effort to make a play), it comes back and hurts the team.

And Davis is generally playing on skins teams not coached by Gibbs and thus the "comeback" potential or ability is a lot less if the fumble hurts (i.e. Norv, Marty as coaches. spurrier a rookie coach.) when Davis fumbles it's more likely to hurt the team that when the skins had a decent team in other word.s

[Zen-like Todd]

Dude, that poor man's Priest Holmes thing is funny as hell.

So Priest Holmes is the poor man's Marshall Faulk, and now Kenny Watson is going to be the poor man's Priest Holmes? What next, Rod "He Hate Me" Smart is the poor man's Kenny Watson?

[skinsanity56]

i absolutely love DAVIS but fuji has a point.his fumbles always seem to come at the wrong time(near our endzone,running out the clock etc) and come back to haunt us.we will resign him but maybe he should do a little more practice drills holding on to the ball,having the ball stripped.it would even benefit our D for creating turnovers..

[Buddha]

Watson has great hands and some sweet open field moves, but I doubt he will be anything more than a 3rd down back for a few seasons. He'll need to learn to move a pile and hit the smallest of seams with power before the HBC would consider him over Davis. Right now, he's a bit of a liability running between the tackles.

As for Davis's fumbles, they definitely come at the worst of times but are no more numerous than any other starting TB. His fumble today was only his second of the season. Last year he had 6 fumbles with 3 lost, in 2000 he had four that were lost, and in 199 he had 4 with only one lost. Can't really curse the guy based on those stats.

[panel]

how can anyone blame this on Davis? He is playing injured, and only gets 14 carries, and you want him benched for that? Kenny watson made some good catches, but did no running. I swear, some of you all just hate Davis, and are looking for any chance you can to ex-him. Davis was put in a horrific position, he was responsible for running up the gut, with an interrior line that I could bust through, going up against two big, strong DTs, with a bum knee, on limited carries, and still had 50+ yards and a TD, and you want him benched in favor of Watson? He caught 4 screen passes (to the outside), while the entire D was Blitzing. Davis is our BEST player, getting rid of his woulg be the worst mistake we could possibly make.

[Tarhog]

Agree with you panel....look, if we were capable of winning against good teams by anything beyond a razor's edge, that fumble would have been an asterisk on the stat sheet, nothing more. Half the backs in the NFL wouldn't play hurt as Davis does time and time again. Its always been clear that he needs 25-30 carries to get his groove going, and if we can ever stop going 14 points down to start games, he might see that # of carries and get back to that kind of production.

Holding on to the ball - GOOD

Fumbling Ball - BAD, VERY BAD

Point taken, but this constant harping that we need to replace guys every time they make mistakes, have a bad game just gets on my nerves....its the fact that we've had a revolving roster for years that keeps us a perennial non-playoff team. STABILITY BABY, that is what we need, 3 or 4 years of it (even if it means sacrificing talent). We've got enough talent to win if we can just play together and eliminate the mistakes. Get rid of Davis? Replace him with WATSON???? That is just mindless man!

[Thinking Skins]

Dont get me wrong, I have loved Davis since we drafted him in teh 4th round. I just realize that we're not going to keep Davis unless he is having an unbelievable year, which he is unfortunately not. Watson already played pretty well in relief of Davis last week. He still could use some molding and stuff, thats why I can see him getting worked in there in a 3rd down back role like we used Karter last year. But I think that Davis fumbling again will lead to SS giving the ball more and more to Watson until ultimately Davis is unhappy on the bench and ready to be released next year.

As far as the Priest Holmes comparison, I realize its funny, but I see the highlights of him and thats who I think of. Holmes is a pretty damn good running back in this league even if he is similar to Faulk. In effect we may have a back who is very similar to Faulk, which doesnt hurt us at all.

My only problem with giving the ball to Watson this early is that Davis is a proven commodity. With him back there, we can take some of the pressure off of Ramsey. They dont need two lame ducks back there who are still learning the league, they need somebody who can come in and just get some yards. Watson hasne proved that he can do that yet, so I too would be a bit hesitant to call him the next great running back in this league, but he is fun to watch.

[Buddha]

I don't think the Priest Holmes comparison is far fetched. Watson has displayed an ability to slash and cut in the open field that no other back on this roster has. Holmes was the same way in Baltimore, but like Watson was not reliable pounding the ball between the tackles. Holmes goes to KC and suddenly has learned to make his own holes by getting past the line with explosiveness before the defenders can react. It's a skill that some backs take time to learn. Hell, it took Davis three seasons and some time plowing the road as a FB to learn to run as a man his size should be able to.

[Ignatius J.]

This thread deseves a bump for the morning, not because i beleive that watson is better than davis, but simply because it really is about time we came to terms with stephen davis's liabilities. Don't get me wrong, I love davis too. When people started saying that maybe davis wasn't right for this offense i about laughed because a big fast guy is perect for rolling over all the DBs in to cover all of our recievers... Unfortunately, now what we are all coming to see what spurrier wants out of his rushing game, we can all see that SD just isn't it.

Go to the screen pass to ladell betts early in the game and you'll see why we drafted this guy. He has a gear that davis just doesn't have, and in this offense we need speed. K Watson has the gear too, but he is a third down back, nobody really beleives that he's the perm answer at RB, but he is a good change of pace.

Look at SD's longest plays from scrimmage this year... 16 yards...23 yards..... That's it. L. Betts touches the ball once, 40 yards. Granted he had a great block, but the reason for the yards was speed. I think that the biggest knock on SD to this date is his lack of big play potential. He does not take balls to the house from outside the red zone. We need a back who can make that threat becasue that is what this offense is all about... threatening the end zone on almost every play.

Now, Stephen davis is a great player, and if he were not under an unreasonable contract I would keep him, but in THIS offense, which i like more the more that i see it, needs speed occasionally, and that speed means that SD cannot be a three down back for us. And SD just isn't worth that money.

I like the young guys we have right now, and i think that we will find that watson betts works well for us in the future. I want to see LB get some carries though and see if he can do it at all between the tackles. I'm not expecting SD, he is one of the best in the league at pounding betweent he tackles, but we need some speed.

-DB

[Burgold]

Davis's problem is not speed. Timing may be an issue for him, though I can't think of a time that is appropriate for a fumble. Has he lost a bunch of speed from 99 and 2000 when he had all those really long runs. I think Davis's biggest problem right now is the O-line. That and he probably does need more repititions which couldn't happen because we had fallen behind so quickly. I would also like to see Spurrier mix in a little more run in the beginning of some games though. Though to be fair, the first ten plays were 6 passes, 4 runs and then we got 20 points down. Just because it needs to be said, Ladell Betts deserves a pat on the back for a few of his plays, especially, for all those calling him a complete waste and bust.

[Fred Smoot Fan]

I gotta say Betts looked damn good on that screen pass didn't look slow to me at all. I think they should sit Davis and start Betts.

[Cskin]

Settle down Fred Smoot fan, the Redskins aren't sitting their probowl running back to play a rookie second rounder. I think the observation is wrong here. Stephen Davis simply isn't the same type of back that either Watson or Betts are. Watch the running game and you'll see that what makes S.D. special is his patience and vision. He's one of the best backs at setting up his blocks and using his feet and hips to change direction. That skill is not taught, but simply instinct.

Watson and Betts have quite different skill sets. Betts was drafted because he exhibits the skill to run between the tackles, stay healthy, and catch out of the backfield. Watch Betts catch the ball, it's effortless and very fluid. Watch Davis, who appears to be thinking about catching and securing the football before turning up field. Precious time elapses.

Watson is your traditional scat back, change of pace, third down back. He's shifty, has adequate speed, and has good vision. He can slash through the line quickly and reach the secondary, something Davis isn't built to do.

Yes, I think Davis' fumbling problems are inopportune and worrisome, but I love his ability to gain 4..6....8 yards a carry. Watson's speed and vision resulted in the touchdown on the screen pass, exactly the type of skills needed to do so. Betts screen pass was different in that he was touched twice and carried a defender three yards before being brought down.... that's his MO.

The Redskins would love to keep Davis, much like any team would keep a perennial probowler, but not at a cap busting expense. Davis will leave for more money, probably to Philly, which will make the decision moot. Betts and Watson will be our starting RB's next year.

[matty dread]

Here we go with the Davis-haters.

Yeah let's bench him for Watson and Betts. Davis is done, washed up, has no speed, no game whatsoever. 14 carries and he can't get it done? He's totally washed up. We should just cut him now and cut our losses while we can. Watson is the next great NFL back, why can't the team see this?? Betts is the next great NFL back #2, why can't the team see this? We have the next Sanders and Smith right there on the bench!! Put them in and get Davis outta there! He fumbles once in every 86 touches, even though that's twice as good as backs like Ricky Williams, and only 4 touches worse than Marshall Faulk, that's not good enough and it's totally inexcusable!! Davis' fumble was much worse than the 4 picks Ramsey threw, (actually 6 when you count in the ones that were called back on penalties).

Our success hinges on our backs, not on our pourous offensive line who couldn't block a pre-schooler. Why the team can't see these things blows my mind.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Though I'm not going to say anything drastic like "Davis should be benched and he fumbles too much" there is something that I have noticed lately.

Yesterday was a perfect example of a game where the coach could have very easily taken pressure off of a rookie QB by riding SD. However, with the score 13-0, we hand the ball to Davis and he commits a very costly turnover. This does two things....

1) It obviously gives the opponent the ball in great field position and

2) Gives Spurrier that much more doubt about riding SD with Ramsey in there...if we can't confidently turn the game over to Davis and let Ramsey grow, it's hard to blame a coach for abandoning the running game.

That's all.

[RiggoDrill]

What I don't like is that Spurrier abandons the running game when Davis fumbles, instead of substituting another back like Watson or Betts. I don't see the point of making your offense one-dimensional and getting your QB clobbered just because one player screws up.

[Fred Smoot Fan]

WE WANT BETTS!

He sure didn't look slow on that screen pass where he outran half the NO secondary. Screw SD, screw Watson put in Betts cuz he's gonna be starting next year anyways!

[Thinking Skins]

I'm surprised that the tone has switched on Betts. I was used to hearing that Betts is a bum and a wasted draft pick, not any more. I used to be one of the biggest Davis fans, and I still think that he's a great running back, but I just think his days here are numbered. So if this is true, why not start auditioning his replacements. I think we have two good backs and even have a running game similar to what Philly had back in the day when they had Ricky Williams and Charlie Garner. We have a whole lot of holes on our team (mainly OL and DL) and need a lot of money to fill those spots.

I'd hate to cut Davis next year and all of a sudden find out that Watson and Betts are just some bums (remember that guy Skip Hicks). If they're bums I'd like to know so that we can get to thinking about next year.

But I feel like even me saying this is throwing away the season and I'm not trying to do that. I think that Davis should definately still be the starter with Watson being worked in some as third down back (maybe Betts too if he looked that good, but I didnt see the game). As Ramsey improves as a starter and gets more comfortable with the NFL QB role, we should give more reps to these guys so that we can be a winning team with or without Davis.

I especially think that if Davis gets hurt or makes a mistake that causes him to get benched and watson or Betts comes in and plays well, he is definately done for the season.

[Skins24]

Start a rookie QB while starting a rookie or 2nd year RB?

Brilliant! Why aren't ya'll in the front office!?

Who needs vets??

It's not like they bring stability anyway. Our chances of winning games with some experience HAS to be less than our chances of winning with no experience, it has to be.

Based on 1 or 2 plays we can all see that Betts and Watson are 100x better than Davis, who has shown nothing the past 4 years.

Some people take the word 'Genius' to the next level. Fred Smoot Fan for 1. Now this is a guy with brains. You should be making millions with a brain like yours Fred.

I just realize that we're not going to keep Davis unless he is having an unbelievable year, which he is unfortunately not.

Hmm...at this point last year he was having a much worst year, up to this point. He wound up setting the Redskins rushing record (again).

[Thinking Skins]

I just realize that we're not going to keep Davis unless he is having an unbelievable year, which he is unfortunately not.

Hmm...at this point last year he was having a much worst year, up to this point. He wound up setting the Redskins rushing record (again).

Even if he goes on to duplicate what he did last year, do you really think that he'll be a Redskin in 2003? I surely dont, the talent level is too good behind him to pay him what he's getting paid. So I do see him losing his starting job sometime this year. The only question is when and for what. If he plays like he did against the Saints, then it'll be sooner than later. If he continues to play well, then we will slowly see his carries diminish as the year progresses and guys like Betts and Watson will get more and more carries.

But one way or another we're not going to have Davis next year.

[Skins24]

Hmmm....the talent behind him?

Davis - 83 carries 357 yards 4.3 ypc 23 long 3 touchdowns

Watson - 12 carries 83 yards 6.9 ypc 24 long 0 touchdowns: not bad, except most of it came against a pretty bad team in the Titans. Didn't Ki Jana Carter have pretty good numbers too?

Betts - 3 carries 4 yards 1.3 ypc 3 long 0 touchdowns: lol, riiight...

So I do see him losing his starting job sometime this year.

I highly doubt it. Why would you bench your leading scorer, your leading rusher, a pro bowler, your best offensive weapon for nothing? It makes no sense. He has done nothing so far that would require any coach in their right mind to bench him.

Especially with Ramsey back there and our offensive playing like it is. Benching Davis would all but guarentee a 2-14 season. Maybe 3-13. The goal is to win games. Whatever happens next year happens, but as far as this year if you sit Davis...goodbye season.

[Thinking Skins]

Notice that I'm not saying to bench Davisnext week, because I realize that's basically throwing teh season away (read earlier posts). But Watson and Betts are the perfect type of backs for this offense. Given, I haven't seen Betts do much (most of what I'm saying about him is from the earlier posts in this thread), but what I've seen of watson has me wanting to see more. Maybe he's just like Skip Hicks who looks good for his 15 mins then his fame is quickly gone. But the only way we're going to find out what we're going to have when SD leaves is to give them the ball. If they handle their roles well, give them more and more to do in the offense.

Ramsey needs stability, so doig things like switching running backs every game will not help his development. Davis is the kind of between the tackles, pound it runner that will help greatly with Ramsey's development. But we cant be too afraid to develop the other talent behind SD.

Look at it like this: last year Marty wanted stability at QB. He cut Jeff George and went with Tony Banks. Banks played Marty Ball by not making game costing mistakes. He wasnt winning the games either, but he wasnt making game costing mistakes either. Then we see Kent Grahm come in there and just lite the field up against Denver. But because Marty wanted to keep the stability, he went back to Banks. I dont know if Grahm would have been the savior, but I know Banks was not.

Now look at this year: SD is a good running back. He's better in a two back-pro set offense where it is pound the football between teh tackles running to set up the pass. Instead he is in this fun-n-gun offense which works best with speedy shifters. Davis goes down for half a game and all of a sudden we see how the RB is supposed to be in this offense and are all like wow. Then he comes back and again is just above average.

just like Banks worked as QB in Marty's offense, he may not have been the best choice as starter all year long. Similarly, Davis is doing things in SS's offense, but Watson may be able to do a lot more. In the little time he has seen, he has done well. So whats the problem with giving him more carries? We know what Davis has and if Watson is not what we expect then we can just put Davis back in there and finish with him. But if he is as similar to Priest Holmes as I think he is, then we could have found a nice surprise and a nice compliment for this offense.

The fun-n-gun is highly involved with big plays and Watson has much more potential for big plays than Davis.