60% of Americans Think Iraq makes more Terrorism in US

[chomerics]

No, I was pointing out the the majority of Americans now view Iraq as hurting our chances in the GWOT. Laugh it off if you want, but the general public has turned completely on this war, and they now see the problems we face despite what the right wing noise machine spews out every day.

60% of Americans believe the war in Iraq has not made us safer. There are now MORE Al Qaeda members then BEFORE the Iraq invasion. Terrorism has INCREASED since we entered Iraq.

At what point do you realize that the way this war is being run, and the way this fight is being fought is not working? i stated this plenty of times, but it bears mentioning again. Being "resolute in your convictions" is fine and dandy, but what if you are wrong? What if you can't see a mistake because you won't allow yourself to see where you made one? What good it resolve in continuing to make things worse, with not understanding of how to make things better? It is borderline meglomaniacal behavior and it was seen in many dictatorial leaders before they fell. They could not see where they made mistakes and continued to make them. From Napoleon, to Hitler all the way to modern day Bush. Each leader has failed to understand that they made a mistake, and it was their downfall.

Again. . . Being strong on your convictions is great, but what if you are wrong?

[Burgold]

As a reality based question it may not be important. As a political testing of the wind, it does tell where the American mindset is. May be meaningful in November... still, a little early to be telling, but our national defense has been the Republican trump card. If Iraq, which has been the most visible effort against terrorism is viewed as a negative, and people focus on our ports, borders, airports, infrastructure, then the current effort against terrorism looks less than stellar.

[Guest sith lord]

Well this just proves, yet again, that 60% of the population is freaking retarded

Explain to me how Iraq has anything to do with terrorism. I mean, was that the line in the sand? So, up until the invasion of Iraq, we were cool? I mean, the Middle East was completely ok with the US backing Israel, cramming its culture into Saudia Arabia, and the whole Crusades thing?

But, taking out one of the most secular leaders in the Middle East was the step too far?!? Now we're gonna get attacked for real??

Please, this poll is useless. May as well ask who believes that Elvis and Tupac are not only still alive, but collaborating on an album together

No. The % of the population that voted Bush to be re-elected is retarded.

[CurseReversed]

60% of Americans believe that when you go to war the enemy will fight back.

News?

Nah.

~Bang

:laugh: :laugh: The enemy fighting back... now thats what you call a failed policy.

At what point do you realize that the way this war is being run, and the way this fight is being fought is not working? i stated this plenty of times, but it bears mentioning again. Being "resolute in your convictions" is fine and dandy, but what if you are wrong? What if you can't see a mistake because you won't allow yourself to see where you made one? What good it resolve in continuing to make things worse, with not understanding of how to make things better? It is borderline meglomaniacal behavior and it was seen in many dictatorial leaders before they fell. They could not see where they made mistakes and continued to make them. From Napoleon, to Hitler all the way to modern day Bush. Each leader has failed to understand that they made a mistake, and it was their downfall.

At what point do you realize that admitting you made a mistake does not fix that mistake and only makes it that much more dangerous. At what point do you realize that trying to place blame solves NOTHING. At what point do you realize that there is no other ways to "fight" this fight or "run" this war other then to be resolute and steadfast. At what point does the reality of repairing a situation override the issues that created it. How do you suggest "making things better" chom. The only thing that will make things better is us doing everything in our power to do so. And in no way shape or form does redeploying or leaving iraq in the hands of bloodthirsty terrorists and a fledgling govt fit into the making things better category. There were mistakes made, IMO not in the decision to go to iraq, but in the planning and the immidiate post war policies implemented in iraq. These mistakes have nothing to do with current policy they are only things that need to be learned from in the future. Current policy should be based on ONE thing and that is what is best for iraq and the U.S. from this day forward. That is what you should be focusing on, stop living in the past, and be practical about the future.

[chomerics]

At what point do you realize that admitting you made a mistake does not fix that mistake and only makes it that much more dangerous.

??? I asked you the question. I always change my mind when I have more information available, people on here can attest to it. Can you not answer the question asked? Admitting the mistake means CHANGING the course of action, something that has NEVER been done in Iraq. Hell, we are STILL to this very DAY short by a few hundred thousand troops. If you want to make it work, then do so, but don;t just let our men sit there like freaking targets!!! Geesh, you've backed the same FAILED policy, haven;t changed a damn thing, and then have the audacity to say it's OUR fault for pointing out the errors? Are you serious?

At what point do you realize that trying to place blame solves NOTHING.

Ummm, you get rid of people who fail at their job. Why in the world is Rumsfeld STILL the Sec. of Def???? How could anyone fail MORE miserably at their job and still have it??? Would you expect to have YOUR job if you failed as bad as Rummy has???

At what point do you realize that there is no other ways to "fight" this fight or "run" this war other then to be resolute and steadfast.

What the hell are you talking about? you are advocating continuing to do the same damn thing which has failed us for what three years??? Are you kidding me??? If you have a child who smashes up the car once a week for an entire year, do you continue to allow the child to have your car???

At what point does the reality of repairing a situation override the issues that created it.

I would say we are WAY WAY past that point, wouldn't you? I mean look at Iraq now compared to under Saddam, which was better in terms of our fight against the terrorists?

How do you suggest "making things better" chom.

I have stated numerous times, I would be for sending 500,000 troops to Iraq. Enough to do the job, and to do it correctly. Since this is OBVIOUSLY not an option to the pea brains in charge, we need to leave and allow the country to split up, there is no other option. The only thing we are doing now is creating MORE terrorists, and there is in fact HARD evidence for that. So what do you do, stay in Iraq, continue to make MORE terrorists, and watch the country fall deeper into a civil war, send 500,000 troops to Iraq (not an option), or deploy the troops to Kurdistan, Turkey and Kuwait and use them as a quick strike force to go in if need be.

The answers are not pretty, but they are answers, something this administration has FAILED to even remotely demonstrate they are aware of.

The only thing that will make things better is us doing everything in our power to do so.

Yet we do not do we?

And in no way shape or form does redeploying or leaving iraq in the hands of bloodthirsty terrorists and a fledgling govt fit into the making things better category.

Well, what is your solution then? You just want to stay there, keep the same old BS going along, line the pockets of republican benefactors while watching more young soldiers die and get maimed. I am sorry, but that is a pretty crappy plan. And it the "terrorists" use Iraq as the new Afghanistan, what is the difference from what they are doing now? They already have training camps there, they are practicing on our troops and honing their craft by killing our soldiers. Does that not bother you? Who would you rather them fight, each other or us? i would rather let them have at each other then attack us, but that makes a wee bit to much sense for the knuckle draggers in power now.

There were mistakes made, IMO not in the decision to go to iraq, but in the planning and the immediate post war policies implemented in iraq. These mistakes have nothing to do with current policy they are only things that need to be learned from in the future.

Yet your entire argument so far has been NOT to learn from the mistakes. Your entire argument has been to stay "steadfast" and "headstrong". Which is it, do you learn from your mistakes and change your course of action, or do you stay "steadfast"? You don;t get it both ways here, pick a side for cripes sakes, stop flip flopping!!!

Current policy should be based on ONE thing and that is what is best for iraq and the U.S. from this day forward. That is what you should be focusing on, stop living in the past, and be practical about the future.

Yet the administration has NOT done what was best for Iraq or what is best for the US. It has lied to the American public about everything to do with the invasion. Form the flowers and roses, to the we know where the WMDs are, to the last throes, they have lied to the American public to mask their failed policies. At what point do you hold ANYONE accountable for their actions? You already said they made mistakes, well why have they not learned from them? Why have they not understood what they did wrong and changed the course of action? If they made mistakes, why should we trust that they will learn from them, when they have already shown us an inability to tell the truth, let alone admit they were wrong???

Serious questions, and there should be some serious answers, not a 2-bit accusation of the person asking the questions. Maybe, just maybe you will see what is written in this post and come to a conclusion that maybe "steadfast" is not the way to be. But unfortunately, I don't think you will. Maybe you will get better with more experience with life, but from my own experience, the chances of that are not to good.

[Coach Williams]

I would'a picked less cuz if we would'a just sat back ppl would've pwnt nyc again along with chi-town and LA......

lol...sorry about the "chat-isms" , myspace style just carried over

[chomerics]

I would'a picked less cuz if we would'a just sat back ppl would've pwnt nyc again along with chi-town and LA......

Says who? How do you know they would have been attacked? The only time they were successful attacking on our soil after Clinton set up the task force was after he left. What is to say that they would have done anything if we didn;t invade Iraq?

Look at it this way. how many Iraqis were on the 9-11 planes? How many Iraqi terrorists were there? How about now?

Wouldn't you say that doing a good job would require your policies to DECREASE the amount of terrorists in the world not INCREASE them??? Come on now people, open your eyes and clean out the fog, we are making them faster then we are killing them, a sure sign what we are doing is NOT working!!!

[Redskins Diehard]

Says who? How do you know they would have been attacked? The only time they were successful attacking on our soil after Clinton set up the task force was after he left. What is to say that they would have done anything if we didn;t invade Iraq?

Look at it this way. how many Iraqis were on the 9-11 planes? How many Iraqi terrorists were there? How about now?

Wouldn't you say that doing a good job would require your policies to DECREASE the amount of terrorists in the world not INCREASE them??? Come on now people, open your eyes and clean out the fog, we are making them faster then we are killing them, a sure sign what we are doing is NOT working!!!

You appear to be getting fanatical with your hatred. Did you give Crazyhorse your password? You really seem to the point of obsession. Maybe you have a little of your own fog.

[alexey]

You appear to be getting fanatical with your hatred. Did you give Crazyhorse your password? You really seem to the point of obsession. Maybe you have a little of your own fog.

Hatered? Looks more like frustration to me. Being able to see how things are going horribly wrong and not being able to do anything about it + people mindlessly repeating the party line "we must stay the course" like zombies will do that to ya.

[Redskins Diehard]

Hatered? Looks more like frustration to me. Being able to see how things are going horribly wrong and not being able to do anything about it + people mindlessly repeating the party line "we must stay the course" like zombies will do that to ya.

I for one have never repeated any party line. Of course anyone that agrees with what is going on is a person incapable of thought, a lemming, a party loyalist. Anyone that opposes is an enlightened, educated, free thinking person that only wants what is in the best interest of the country and the world.

Some people have been there, seen it, and said it isn't as bad as the evening news says...some people watch the evening news and draw pretty much their entire opinion from there and say the people that have spent their professional life studying, dealing, and living with it are wrong. Which are you?

[alexey]

I for one have never repeated any party line. Of course anyone that agrees with what is going on is a person incapable of thought, a lemming, a party loyalist. Anyone that opposes is an enlightened, educated, free thinking person that only wants what is in the best interest of the country and the world.

I believe that a discussion can be had without the flinging of poop - but those involved have to be interested in actually discussing things, listening to each other, addressing each other's points, etc.

The motivation behind a point of view is not always the same. All people have some a certain degree of "mental inertia," so to speak, behind their opinions. After all, everything is a connection between neurons in our heads. Creating and retaining these connections is how learning occurs. It is natural for a brain to resist changing already made connections.

Maybe without thinking of it in such terms, but many people think it is important to try and excercise control over this process. They acknowledge that brains tend to have this "mental inertia," and work on themselves to gain a better control over it. Eastern religions like Buddhism are big on this.

Also, education really helps one achieve better control over "mental inertia." The reason for this is simple - learning increases plastisity of the brain. It increases ability of one to change things around in there. After all, learning involves quite a bit of "thinking that you know" and then "realizing that you did not know." People gain the ability to see clearly as they stop thinking in terms of "I know how it is."

I am getting at this - not all opinions are created equal because different people arrive at different opinions in different ways. Do not understand this to be a judgement of opinions that differ - I know that is a very tempting escape route.

What I am trying to say is, it is pretty obvious when people are refusing to discuss the topic at hand. It is pretty obvious when people try to justify their mental inertia instead of putting together a sound argument. It is pretty obvious when the point of view stops being reasonable and starts being emotional (anger is a sign brain sees it needs to change connections but does not want to do it)

[Leonard Washington]

who cares what americans think?

[Ignatius J.]

.

Some people have been there, seen it, and said it isn't as bad as the evening news says...some people watch the evening news and draw pretty much their entire opinion from there and say the people that have spent their professional life studying, dealing, and living with it are wrong. Which are you?

And some people have been there, seen it, and said it's worse than the news portrays. Chances are that the truth is much more complicated than a better or worse analysis can hope to offer.

[CurseReversed]

??? I asked you the question. I always change my mind when I have more information available, people on here can attest to it. Can you not answer the question asked? Admitting the mistake means CHANGING the course of action, something that has NEVER been done in Iraq. Hell, we are STILL to this very DAY short by a few hundred thousand troops. If you want to make it work, then do so, but don;t just let our men sit there like freaking targets!!! Geesh, you've backed the same FAILED policy, haven;t changed a damn thing, and then have the audacity to say it's OUR fault for pointing out the errors? Are you serious?

Admitting you made a mistake does mean changing your course of action, which has been done and is being done as we speak. It is just that the change of course which you advocate (pulling out) is the completely wrong change necessary. Matter of fact it is the worst possible change of course for Iraq and the U.S. troops that have sacrificed and fought there for the past four years. You keep pointing to the idea that we keep doing the same thing or are making the same mistakes. On the contrary we have been updating and revising strategies in iraq since the beginning trying to adapt to this growing insurgency. I think you need to just say what you mean by change you mean pull out by fix our mistakes you mean pull out by hold people responsible you mean get them out of power and PULL OUT. Its funny how many different ways you can code that into some type of intelligent reasoning.

I too would be for more troops in the beginning and now, but we both know that now it is not possible. Am I going to sit here ****ing about how it should have been done in that manor from the outset, no, because it is does not solve anything. So for you it is pull out or nothing, and that is where the flaw in your logic rests, in your black and white reasoning. pulling out is the completely wrong move no matter where mistakes were made in the outset. I wont even go through all the reasons they are fairly obvious.

Yet your entire argument so far has been NOT to learn from the mistakes. Your entire argument has been to stay "steadfast" and "headstrong". Which is it, do you learn from your mistakes and change your course of action, or do you stay "steadfast"? You don;t get it both ways here, pick a side for cripes sakes, stop flip flopping!!!

Why cant you understand the distinction between admitting and learning from mistakes and not making even bigger ones such as pulling out.

Leaving Iraq IS NOT learning from mistakes or admitting them it is compounding them.

It is simply the plan of those who care nothing for iraq and really have no plan. Redploy to periphery for quick reaction forces???? You are way to smart to believe something that ridiculous. I think you are just so frustrated with all the mistakes and the alleged lies that you scramble to a solution that is not only improper but impractical.

I guess its a shame that the real solution to this problem lies in being steadfast and resolute and adapting and solving the problems that we have created relying on the same people who created them, but nevertheless it remains undoubtedly so. So grit your teeth and bare it chom. This admin misjudged in there prosecution of this war, which happens in all wars, such is the nature. There motivations were noble in my opinon and their mistakes unfortunate, but nothing ever goes as planned in war and all that can be done is too learn, adapt and eventually win. I still have hope and as long as american troops are there and I will retain my optimism and faith in them. Their situation is not that dire, US deaths have been on the decline and we are in no way facing defeat from any party other then those who wish us to pull out. We can only loose if we give up

[Redskins Diehard]

And some people have been there, seen it, and said it's worse than the news portrays. Chances are that the truth is much more complicated than a better or worse analysis can hope to offer.

I would love to talk to you about your experiences if in fact you think things are worse than they are portrayed. I am serious about that.

I have no problem with people who have formulated a real opinion through honest thought and analysis...I know some people who have been there and think it is bad and was a mistake.

So please, tell me what you saw that makes you think it was worse than the news.

[chomerics]

Admitting you made a mistake does mean changing your course of action, which has been done and is being done as we speak. It is just that the change of course which you advocate (pulling out) is the completely wrong change necessary. Matter of fact it is the worst possible change of course for Iraq and the U.S. troops that have sacrificed and fought there for the past four years. You keep pointing to the idea that we keep doing the same thing or are making the same mistakes. On the contrary we have been updating and revising strategies in iraq since the beginning trying to adapt to this growing insurgency. I think you need to just say what you mean by change you mean pull out by fix our mistakes you mean pull out by hold people responsible you mean get them out of power and PULL OUT. Its funny how many different ways you can code that into some type of intelligent reasoning.

I too would be for more troops in the beginning and now, but we both know that now it is not possible. Am I going to sit here ****ing about how it should have been done in that manor from the outset, no, because it is does not solve anything. So for you it is pull out or nothing, and that is where the flaw in your logic rests, in your black and white reasoning. pulling out is the completely wrong move no matter where mistakes were made in the outset. I wont even go through all the reasons they are fairly obvious.

Did you even read my argument where I stated that I would SUPPORT sending in 500,000 troops? Did that even get through? You say you agree, then act as if I just want to leave, man where has reason gone?

Tell me HOW Iraq is getting better? Tell me what we are doing that is making things better in Iraq and how the situation is not deterioratiing into an all out civil war. Just because you say "pulling out would be bad" does not make it so. There is ABSOLUTELY NO alternative you talk about then doing the same goddam thing we've been doing for the past 3 stinking years!!!

Iraqis are dying by about 3,000/month now due to sectarian violence how is this an improvement? How are things getting better? Can you even admit they are MUCH worse then a year ago?

Why cant you understand the distinction between admitting and learning from mistakes and not making even bigger ones such as pulling out.

Leaving Iraq IS NOT learning from mistakes or admitting them it is compounding them.

No, continuing to INCREASE terrorism with the stubborn pig headedness seen is compounding them!!! How ignorant do you have to be not to realize WE are the problem over there? How much kool aid do you have to drink to understand that Iraq is not all rosey, but instead is NOW a giant big terrorism training field? When do you realize that staying the course is NOT working and it is NOT making us safer? When we lose 50,000 troops? When it turns into an all out civil war? At what point do you say No Mas ????? When do you admit that it is not what the administration told you it was, and we have only made matters worse? When WWIII breaks out??? When Iran gets a nuke????

It is simply the plan of those who care nothing for iraq and really have no plan.

Actually, that would be the Neo-con agenda right there. Yes, those that care nothing about Iraq, and have no plan. I thinkyou pretty much nailed the Republican platform on Iraq in that one sentence :doh:

Redploy to periphery for quick reaction forces???? You are way to smart to believe something that ridiculous. I think you are just so frustrated with all the mistakes and the alleged lies that you scramble to a solution that is not only improper but impractical.

Really? Why not? Tell me why a quick strike force is impractical? how was the plot eliminated in England? Did the military force help them? Terrorism is NOT, and I repeat NOT a war that can be won militarily, we have AMPLE and GLARING evidence for this. Those who think it STILL can be won militarily are the kool aid drinkers who think NASA never walked on the moon.

I guess its a shame that the real solution to this problem lies in being steadfast and resolute and adapting and solving the problems that we have created relying on the same people who created them

And what confidence do you have that the people who didn;t forsee the problems actually HAVE a solution? Because you believed them before, you just listen to them again? When do you QUESTION their rhetoric and start to say to yourself "isn;t that what you said before, and it didn't work?" Do you just believe what they say because it is the party you are from? Seriously, at what point do you admit a mistake?

but nevertheless it remains undoubtedly so. So grit your teeth and bare it chom. This admin misjudged in there prosecution of this war, which happens in all wars, such is the nature.

Saying they "misjudged" this war is akin to saying the A-bomb dropped on Japan was just a little firecracker.

There motivations were noble in my opinon and their mistakes unfortunate

Their motives were NOT nobile in my mind, and the mistakes are NOT unfortunate when you have people who actually understand the situation in Iraq telling you what will happen. When you ignore the voice of reason, stamp it out, squelch it and call that voice the enemy, then it is not "unfortunate" it is your own goddam arrogance and ignorance that caused this mess to begin with, and you should be held accountalbe.

but nothing ever goes as planned in war and all that can be done is too learn, adapt and eventually win. I still have hope and as long as american troops are there and I will retain my optimism and faith in them. Their situation is not that dire, US deaths have been on the decline and we are in no way facing defeat from any party other then those who wish us to pull out. We can only loose if we give up

We have already lost the war, and your party has already lost power, you just don;t realize it yst because you are to busy believing the propaganda they spew. Sorry you were duped, I truly am, but believing in Santa Clause does not make him magically appear no how hard you believe in fairy tales.

[alexey]

CurseReversed,

There are proponents of a pull-out that simply want out of Iraq because that would be the opposite of what Bush and Reps want to do.

There are also proponents of a pull-out who carefully evaluated the situation on the ground and available options before arriving at their opinion that a pull-out is the best possible/available way to handle the current situation.

It appears that you may be lumping these two into the same category.

They are two very distinct groups of people. One includes the so-called "Looney Left," and the other includes most people who have actually been to Iraq.

Also, notice how opponents of a pull-out usually refrain from discussing situation on the ground in Iraq, which I submit as further evidence of my point.

[jbooma]

I think chom was trying to put that "we fight them over there so we don't have to fight them over here" line of reasoning in perspective.

well his reasoning has no basis since last i looked we have been fighting them there and not here, when was the last time you saw an alqueda group start terrorizing our citizens here, never

[chomerics]

well his reasoning has no basis since last i looked we have been fighting them there and not here, when was the last time you saw an alqueda group start terrorizing our citizens here, never

Never? What was 9-11, a figment of my imagination?

[Sarge]

We have already lost the war, and your party has already lost power, you just don;t realize it yst because you are to busy believing the propaganda they spew. Sorry you were duped, I truly am, but believing in Santa Clause does not make him magically appear no how hard you believe in fairy tales.

And you wonder why Dems are seen as knuckleheads on security. Views like yours

[CurseReversed]

Did you even read my argument where I stated that I would SUPPORT sending in 500,000 troops? Did that even get through? You say you agree, then act as if I just want to leave, man where has reason gone?

Tell me HOW Iraq is getting better? Tell me what we are doing that is making things better in Iraq and how the situation is not deterioratiing into an all out civil war. Just because you say "pulling out would be bad" does not make it so. There is ABSOLUTELY NO alternative you talk about then doing the same goddam thing we've been doing for the past 3 stinking years!!!

Iraqis are dying by about 3,000/month now due to sectarian violence how is this an improvement? How are things getting better? Can you even admit they are MUCH worse then a year ago?

I too would be for more troops in the beginning and now, but we both know that now it is not possible.

I guess it was you who didnt read. There are not 350,000 spare troops to send there now but we have rightly increased troop strength as much as possible.

Yes you do just want to leave, I think you didnt read you own post either, that is exactly what you are advocating. Seeing as putting half a mil troops in iraq now is impossible although it might not have been in the beginning.

Iraq is not getting better, it is not rosey, I did not "believe" what the administration told me:laugh: I know war is hell and and it never goes as planned. I know from a history of wars nearly lost that your idea of the way a war should manifest itself is nothing more then a fantasy. I fully expect the enemy to fight to the death and do anything to defeat us even if it means slaughtering their own people (which is what is happening) because they cannot defeat us militarily. You say we have already lost, but you fail to see the desperation in their tactics. There are thousands in iraq now who are willing to do do anything including bombing mosques and marketplaces with no military value to cause our failure and pull out, your goals and theirs are parallel. disturbing? They play on people like you hoping that you deliever them their victory. You say that we are the cause of this violence, yet the truth is we facilitated it, THEY are causing it. I also know there are millions more who want freedom and peace and know that our presence for now is the only thing keeping their dreams alive.

Yes we caused the situation, but that is irrelevant now, now we need to fix it, and pulling out would be the worst way to do that, regardless of what YOUR left wing administration has told you. Strike forces from the peripherary is a politicians plan not a generals and if youd stop to think about it your would realize that it is ridiculous.

Your disdain is understandable chom, although mine is considerably less, I too am frustrated with the fact that we didnt send in 500k troops to start. I am frustrated with the improper planning and execution. But I know that hindsight is 20/20 and when planning a war you can almost be assured that what can go wrong will go wrong. But I am not going to allow that frustration to drive me to pursue a course of action that does nothing but make the situation worse. Even though it has gotten worse and continues to do so, atleast for the civilians, pulling out is not the answer, regardless if Iraq was the frontline for the war on terror before we invaded IT IS NOW and we will never give them a victory.

[jbooma]

Never? What was 9-11, a figment of my imagination?

where we in iraq then, no

you honestly think they would have stopped coming after us if we never went to Iraq??

[chomerics]

where we in iraq then, no

you honestly think they would have stopped coming after us if we never went to Iraq??

Do you honestly think Iraq has made us safer? If so, then why has Al Qaeda doubled in strength and terrorism has increased tenfold since the operation started?

[alexey]

CurseReversed,

Your point seems to hinge on some hypothetical "them" who are behind all instability in Iraq - "because they cannot defeat us militarily." This allows you to present Iraq as "us vs them" battle.

The truth is, there is no "us vs them" in Iraq. There is only "us vs chaos."

We are not fighting an enemy in Iraq. We are fighting anarchy. The only way to win a war against anarchy is to institute order. We now do not have the resources necessary to institute order in Iraq. That is the case as a result of a multitude of blunders and mismanagement on our part. This is what Chomerics is getting at.

[chomerics]

Yes we caused the situation, but that is irrelevant now, now we need to fix it, and pulling out would be the worst way to do that

Based on what??? Seriously, you have argued absolutely NOTHING, said i am the enemy and offered nothing in terms of how to win this war. Instead you say just keep doing what we have been doing. Well is that working? Is terrorism increasing or decreasing?

You have to be honest and ask those fundamental questions if you are going to get ANYWHERE in the discussion. Saying I am the enemy, and equating my wants to the same thing as a terrorist wants is not only a complete joke, dishonest to the core and absolutely laughable, but it shows you will repeat what the party tells you to repeat like a good lemming does.

Again, what is YOUR solution??? I have told you mine, you said it can't be done, so we will do the same thing we have. Well, what in the world has worked so far? The situation has deterriorated into chaos and an all out war between different factions of Islam and all you can offer it this bad, we know it is bad, but we have no other choice?

I too am frustrated with the fact that we didnt send in 500k troops to start. I am frustrated with the improper planning and execution. But I know that hindsight is 20/20 and when planning a war you can almost be assured that what can go wrong will go wrong. But I am not going to allow that frustration to drive me to pursue a course of action that does nothing but make the situation worse.

How do you know it will make the matter worse??? And worse for who, us, American citizens who have already spent over $300Billion dollars on this bungled up nation building conquest? How will it be worse then now? What will Al Qaeda go from doubling in size to tripling? How does it make it worse for ME, Joe Taxpayer who knows people over there right now? i completely fail to see how continuing down the same path is any better then pulling out, and in fact it makes it much worse!!!

Even though it has gotten worse and continues to do so, atleast for the civilians, pulling out is not the answer, regardless if Iraq was the frontline for the war on terror before we invaded IT IS NOW and we will never give them a victory.

What? Listen to your argument. Well, we really screwed up, but we'll continue to let them screw up because we have no choice?!? What kind of insane logic is that? The enemy is order, not terrorists. How do you keep order without enough troops? how do you win a battle militarily against an opponent with no military? What do you have to offer other then "well we screwed up, but nothing can be done to make tings worse, so we will continue to screw up"????