Tony Stewart wins the Pepsi 400 at Daytona

[Xameil]

About 90% of the Nascar cautions are BS cautions. Whenever the #8 goes a lap down, you can guarantee there will be a caution out within five laps to make sure he's the "lucky dog."

The "lucky dog" has to be the dumbest form of racing welfare I have ever seen.

lol...you wearing your tin hat? yeah they only throw cautions when Jr goes a lap down :doh: .

so why didn't they do that last year when he needed the help?

The Lucky dog was a smart move. Otherwise you'd get the racing to the yellow like they used to do.

[ntotoro]

The Lucky dog was a smart move. Otherwise you'd get the racing to the yellow like they used to do.

And what was wrong with that?

Lucky dog... race for the chace... it's all the racing equivalent of welfare.

Their bread & butter (the #8 & #24) were missing from the "chase" last year and I'm sure there were guys in the Nascar boardroom grinding their teeth about that.

lol...you wearing your tin hat? yeah they only throw cautions when Jr goes a lap down :doh:

They did. He had nine last year.

Nine.

It couldn't be helped if he and his team were so bad that they couldn't take more advantage of it.

[Xameil]

Well that's precisely his problem - he can't race at all tracks. There's only 4 restrictor plate races and as of late he hasn't performed well on those either. He's horrible on the road courses and equally as bad on the flat cookie cutter tracks.

Better talented drivers:

Stewart

Gordon

Johnson

Busch

Biffle

Kenseth

Kahne

Harvick

Edwards

Hamlin (this kid is going to be great)

I'll give ya Stewart, but look at where Jr has finished up front...it's not just restrictor races anymore, and if he didn't get into the accident at Sonoma he would have done better. As for most of those drivers being better, you're nuts. Kennseth was a fluke to win the championship, and couldn't back it up. Biffle is just lucky his team sets up his car right. And Busch?!? C'mon now he may be better at reckless driving and getting in trouble with the law, but on the track...I completely disagree. Hamlin is good, and may be great someday, but it's too early to tell imo. Since Jr is now 3rd in the standings, and has been in the top 10 for almost the entire season...I don't think you can call him overrated.

[Xameil]

And what was wrong with that?

Lucky dog... race for the chace... it's all the racing equivalent of welfare.

Their bread & butter (the #8 & #24) were missing from the "chase" last year and I'm sure there were guys in the Nascar boardroom grinding their teeth about that.

They did. He had nine last year.

Nine.

It couldn't be helped if he and his team were so bad that they couldn't take more advantage of it.

so whenever Jr went a lap down, they made someone get into an accident? you're gonna have to give facts as to which races, and what brought out the yellow to substantiate your claim. And what about Johnson and Gordon...they seemed to have been the beneficiaries of several questionable yellows this year.

I don't think they were grinding their teeth at all. In fact the only thing I think they were grinding their teeth at was Rousch having 5 cars in the chase.

Racing to the yellow did make it more exciting, but also caused the leaders to get wrecked snce lapped cars were trying to beat them to the start/finish. It was a safety thing.

[Xameil]

Wrong.

He has had two so far this season, one at Atlanta and the other at California. Gordon and Johnson have had three each.

are you forgetting Dover? Jimmie Johnson had 2 in that race alone.

[DB44]

Dude, this was the Coolest picture. I had to post it!

Congradulations Tony, and JGR!

[ntotoro]

are you forgetting Dover? Jimmie Johnson had 2 in that race alone.

I don't really care, considering I'm not a fan of any of those guys and my own interest has been dwindling the last few years. All I did was point out how many they had. The reason I pointed the races where DE2 had cautions was the original poster said he had no lucky dogs this year.

[ntotoro]

so whenever Jr went a lap down, they made someone get into an accident? you're gonna have to give facts as to which races, and what brought out the yellow to substantiate your claim. And what about Johnson and Gordon...they seemed to have been the beneficiaries of several questionable yellows this year.

I don't think they were grinding their teeth at all. In fact the only thing I think they were grinding their teeth at was Rousch having 5 cars in the chase.

Racing to the yellow did make it more exciting, but also caused the leaders to get wrecked snce lapped cars were trying to beat them to the start/finish. It was a safety thing.

I'm quite certain they were upset Jack Roush had all five cars in the welfare special. What can you do? They can't just tell these guys to get rid of teams, considering the multi-team owners don't technically own (on paper) all their cars.

Johnson & Gordon have only had one more lucky dog than Junior this year. If you can point that Junior has gotten his 11 over the last two years from legit accidents and not just mysterious "debris cautions," then you may be on to something, but I think you may be surprised how often Junior (as well as Gordon and Johnson) have been given gifts from the mysterious and elusive "Jacques Debris."

There were no mass wrecks racing back to the caution. That was revisionist history hogwash put forth by Nascar. The real reason was they got tired of the races leaders from multi-car teams slowing down to give their teammates laps back. There were never any huge wrecks because of it. A couple sketchy moments whenever a guy would almost slow to a crawl, but Nascar couldn't just leave the "gentleman's agreement" alone.

Don't get me wrong. I don't hate Junior, Gordon, Johnson or anyone. I don't think it's Junior's fault that he basically inherited his Father's entire fanbase based on his name and a couple years in the Busch series where he had equipment 10x better than everyone else. He didn't ask for it or to be famous. It just kind of happened. I do get tired of the media shoving his face out there as if he has a fraction of the talent his Father did.

[Xameil]

I don't really care, considering I'm not a fan of any of those guys and my own interest has been dwindling the last few years. All I did was point out how many they had. The reason I pointed the races where DE2 had cautions was the original poster said he had no lucky dogs this year.

I think you were the first one to say that they only throw the yellow when Jr goes a lap down...so you kinda started that whole thing. You can't really throw out an accusation like that and not expect some flak, especially when one of the people you were supporting had many more then Jr.

If there is some sort of mysterious conspiracy...like "The Call" or mysterious yellow flags that is going on out there, then more then just the driver you seem to hate benefits from it. Johnson alone this year is still leading the standings after receiving several Lucky dogs this year.

[Xameil]

I'm quite certain they were upset Jack Roush had all five cars in the welfare special. What can you do? They can't just tell these guys to get rid of teams, considering the multi-team owners don't technically own (on paper) all their cars.

Johnson & Gordon have only had one more lucky dog than Junior this year. If you can point that Junior has gotten his 11 over the last two years from legit accidents and not just mysterious "debris cautions," then you may be on to something, but I think you may be surprised how often Junior (as well as Gordon and Johnson) have been given gifts from the mysterious and elusive "Jacques Debris."

There were no mass wrecks racing back to the caution. That was revisionist history hogwash put forth by Nascar. The real reason was they got tired of the races leaders from multi-car teams slowing down to give their teammates laps back. There were never any huge wrecks because of it. A couple sketchy moments whenever a guy would almost slow to a crawl, but Nascar couldn't just leave the "gentleman's agreement" alone.

Don't get me wrong. I don't hate Junior, Gordon, Johnson or anyone. I don't think it's Junior's fault that he basically inherited his Father's entire fanbase based on his name and a couple years in the Busch series where he had equipment 10x better than everyone else. He didn't ask for it or to be famous. It just kind of happened. I do get tired of the media shoving his face out there as if he has a fraction of the talent his Father did.

Umm better look up the new rules...Roush has until 2010 I believe to scale back to 3 or 4 teams.

It would be interesting to see, but I think Jr actually got most of his lucky dogs last year from accidents. I don't remember having as many "debris" cautions last year as this year.

As for the wrecks...no I didn't say any big wrecks happened...I said the leaders were ending up in wrecks, and the big names like Jeff "I wanna whine alittle more" Gordon was one of the ones that complained about it.

Jr. got nothing from his father...yeah he may have initially got a bunch of fans from his dad, but he's been in it long enough that he acquired his own, and if he wasn't good, then they wouldn't still be cheering for him. Jr even commented how his father NEVER made it easy for him, and made him work his way up.

[ntotoro]

I think you were the first one to say that they only throw the yellow when Jr goes a lap down...so you kinda started that whole thing. You can't really throw out an accusation like that and not expect some flak, especially when one of the people you were supporting had many more then Jr.

If there is some sort of mysterious conspiracy...like "The Call" or mysterious yellow flags that is going on out there, then more then just the driver you seem to hate benefits from it. Johnson alone this year is still leading the standings after receiving several Lucky dogs this year.

Many more? Try one more.

He and Gordon have gotten three total this year. Junior has gotten two total. Where is many more? I don't like any of the three, so I have no beef.

[Xameil]

Many more? Try one more.

He and Gordon have gotten three total this year. Junior has gotten two total. Where is many more? I don't like any of the three, so I have no beef.

Johnson and Gordon have gotten more then three this year. Johnson has 4 alone I believe...2 coming in the same race.

[ntotoro]

Umm better look up the new rules...Roush has until 2010 I believe to scale back to 3 or 4 teams.

There's no way Nascar can legally or practically prevent any team owner from fielding cars. I know last year Nascar puffed out their chests and said they would be cracking down, but there is no way Roush, Hendrick or anyone can be forced to pare down like that. That's wishful thinking on their part.

It would be interesting to see, but I think Jr actually got most of his lucky dogs last year from accidents. I don't remember having as many "debris" cautions last year as this year.

Nascar and debris cautions go together like beer and pizza. This year is nothing new. Last year and the year before were debris-caution-crazy, as well.

As for the wrecks...no I didn't say any big wrecks happened...I said the leaders were ending up in wrecks, and the big names like Jeff "I wanna whine alittle more" Gordon was one of the ones that complained about it.

He complains about everything, though. If Nascar made a rule to fix something he complained about, there would be no racing. He even complained his own teammate was racing him too hard a couple weeks ago.

Jr. got nothing from his father...yeah he may have initially got a bunch of fans from his dad, but he's been in it long enough that he acquired his own, and if he wasn't good, then they wouldn't still be cheering for him.

Then please explain how Kerry Earnhardt still gets tons of applause when he's in a race, nevermind the fact that he can't find his way out of a paper bag...

[ntotoro]

Johnson and Gordon have gotten more then three this year. Johnson has 4 alone I believe...2 coming in the same race.

No, they haven't. Here is a listing of their Lucky Dogs from Jayski:

#48-Johnson, 3

#24-Gordon, 2 (I mistakenly said Gordon had three)

Johnson: Texas, Bristol, Dover

Contrary to what you're saying, Johnson only got one lucky dog at Dover. He did make up two laps, but he came from two laps down to one by passing the leader and catching a caution. He got a lucky dog later on, which put him back on the lead lap.

I had to research that one because Jayski had three, but only listed two.

Gordon: Martinsville, Pocono.

[Xameil]

No, they haven't. Here is a listing of their Lucky Dogs from Jayski:

#48-Johnson, 3

#24-Gordon, 2 (I mistakenly said Gordon had three)

Johnson: Texas, Bristol, Dover

Contrary to what you're saying, Johnson only got one lucky dog at Dover. He did make up two laps, but he came from two laps down to one by passing the leader and catching a caution. He got a lucky dog later on, which put him back on the lead lap.

I had to research that one because Jayski had three, but only listed two.

Gordon: Martinsville, Pocono.

Yeah I don't know if Gordon got 2 or 3.

As for Dover, I could have sworn he got 2 at that race, but he may have gotten the other from getting in front of the leader, and then a "debris caution" came out and he didn't need the lucky dog...so coming from 2 laps down due to the yellow flag still benefits johnson more then anyone.

[nelms]

I don't think it's Junior's fault that he basically inherited his Father's entire fanbase based on his name and a couple years in the Busch series where he had equipment 10x better than everyone else. He didn't ask for it or to be famous. It just kind of happened. I do get tired of the media shoving his face out there as if he has a fraction of the talent his Father did.

Those are my sentiments exactly. I don't really hate Dale Jr. himself. I hate how Nascar and the media has built him up so much. He's an average driver, not one of the elites.

[More Complete]

Only one problem with that.........

restrictor plate racing isn't racing..

Why? I'm not a racing fan so I don't know what this means... is it because they go slower?

[Busch1724]

Alright lets get a couple things straight here:

Let me preface this by saying I'm not biased towards any make of car or driver anymore. I enjoy watching the sport and have done so for a looong time. I remember races from when I was 9 or 10 years old and enjoying Earnhardt and Waltrip go at it. Recognizing driving talent isn't hard at all. Finding steering wheel holders is very easy to find.

If you want to find out who the good drivers out there look up the finishes on short tracks and road courses. Those are the places it is more about the driver and less about the equipment. So who are the most talented drivers? By far Jeff Gordon and Tony Stewart. Kurt Busch and Jimmie Johnson are almost in this group. Johnson would be if he ran better on the driver tracks. He mops up on the tracks where it comes down to equipment. He's far better this year though.

They are followed by Kurt Busch, Greg Biffle, Mark Martin, Jimmie Johnson, Earnhardt Jr., Matt Kenseth, and Kasey Kahne (not in that order). They are in this second group because, barring a mechanical failure or horrible equipment, race very good on tracks where the driver and not equipment are more important. They have good finishes many times, but sometimes have something silly happen to them.

The next tier would be Kyle Busch, Bobby Labonte (would be in the above group, but he's streaky), Ryan Newman, and a few others like Jeff Burton and Kevin Harvick. Kyle is very close to making the leap. He's running much better this year. We'll wait and see on Hamlin. He looks very promising, only runs around 15th or so most of the race on the driver tracks.

Finally, as far as the lucky dog. Sure Jr. had a lot of them last year, because the cars were garbage. Their equipment needs to get better. He is talented enough. Once they get caught up he'll be fine. He has far less lucky dogs this year because the cars are better.

I think I got all of that out.

[Xameil]

Alright lets get a couple things straight here:

Let me preface this by saying I'm not biased towards any make of car or driver anymore. I enjoy watching the sport and have done so for a looong time. I remember races from when I was 9 or 10 years old and enjoying Earnhardt and Waltrip go at it. Recognizing driving talent isn't hard at all. Finding steering wheel holders is very easy to find.

If you want to find out who the good drivers out there look up the finishes on short tracks and road courses. Those are the places it is more about the driver and less about the equipment. So who are the most talented drivers? By far Jeff Gordon and Tony Stewart. Kurt Busch and Jimmie Johnson are almost in this group. Johnson would be if he ran better on the driver tracks. He mops up on the tracks where it comes down to equipment. He's far better this year though.

They are followed by Kurt Busch, Greg Biffle, Mark Martin, Jimmie Johnson, Earnhardt Jr., Matt Kenseth, and Kasey Kahne (not in that order). They are in this second group because, barring a mechanical failure or horrible equipment, race very good on tracks where the driver and not equipment are more important. They have good finishes many times, but sometimes have something silly happen to them.

The next tier would be Kyle Busch, Bobby Labonte (would be in the above group, but he's streaky), Ryan Newman, and a few others like Jeff Burton and Kevin Harvick. Kyle is very close to making the leap. He's running much better this year. We'll wait and see on Hamlin. He looks very promising, only runs around 15th or so most of the race on the driver tracks.

Finally, as far as the lucky dog. Sure Jr. had a lot of them last year, because the cars were garbage. Their equipment needs to get better. He is talented enough. Once they get caught up he'll be fine. He has far less lucky dogs this year because the cars are better.

I think I got all of that out.

sounds about right to me. I think DEI finally has it figured out with his cars...too bad they took a step back in restrictor plate

[canethang 305]

Well that's precisely his problem - he can't race at all tracks. There's only 4 restrictor plate races and as of late he hasn't performed well on those either. He's horrible on the road courses and equally as bad on the flat cookie cutter tracks.

Better talented drivers:

Stewart

Gordon

Johnson

Busch

Biffle

Kenseth

Kahne

Harvick

Edwards

Hamlin (this kid is going to be great)

You were most def right about the free passes, and yes he stinks on the road tracks and as for the cookie cutters I said same equipment the DEI 1.5 mile program was weak cause they couldn't get downforce car's to perform. All the Rousch car's and Yates engine packages run great on those tracks henceforth the dominance over the last 2 yrs. Jr. finished 11th at Fontana, less for a speeding violation in the last lap's at Vegas he would have had a top 15, and a 3rd at Michigan isn't bad. He's 3rd in points so don't sleep on him just a few year's ago he was leading in points during the chase till he cursed on tv and got docked 25 driver points.

As for the other drivers listed Junior spanked Kenseth in the Busch Series and the rest of the Rousch car's are just good. i am not sure if your talking about Shrub or Kurt. Kurt is good his bro' just has good equipment. Kahne is good but not better, and Harvick is good and now has decent equipment.

I guess what it really comes down to is your team and crew chief, car and engine builder's and LUCK.

Also Hamlin is good but he look's a lot better than Leffler last year cause he has all the old #18 chassis and engines in new paint cause JGR had to do something cause of the $ FedEx is pouring in, and that is a quick fix.

[ntotoro]

They are followed by... Mark Martin... They have good finishes many times, but sometimes have something silly happen to them.

Particularly Mark Martin. There was a running gag in rec.autos.sport.nascar about 10-12 years ago called the "Mark Martin Wheel o' Misfortune Contest."

People would wager on what would take Mark Martin out of a race and where he'd be running when it happened, particularly at plate tracks. It would usually be something silly that happened to the car, like Loudon several years ago when an a-arm on the front suspension just broke for apparently no reason at all.

Mathematically (after a penalty), he'd have been the champ in '90 if not for an intake manifold that was bolted together instead of welded at Richmond. So goes the WC career of Mark Martin...

[ntotoro]

As for the other drivers listed Junior spanked Kenseth in the Busch Series and the rest of the Rousch car's are just good.

Kenseth didn't get support from Roush when he was running full-time in BGN. All his cars were still Chevy and it was Reiser Motorsports. They didn't have the funds as Roush. DE2's equipment was leagues better than everyone else in BGN, just as Petty's was in his heyday in the WC series.

Which is still why I think Dale Earnhardt and David Pearson were more talented than Petty, but that's a whole 'nother argument.

[zoony]

Kenseth is the most under-rated driver on the circuit.

He has no fans, he gets no respect. All he does is win. But he's not good in front of a camera, so the rednecks don't like him. Being from Wisconsin doesn't help him either... although it's not a death sentence.

Matt Kenseth is the Art Monk of Nascar.

...

[canethang 305]

Kenseth didn't get support from Roush when he was running full-time in BGN. All his cars were still Chevy and it was Reiser Motorsports. They didn't have the funds as Roush. DE2's equipment was leagues better than everyone else in BGN, just as Petty's was in his heyday in the WC series.

Which is still why I think Dale Earnhardt and David Pearson were more talented than Petty, but that's a whole 'nother argument.

I agree but that's a big can of worm's to open, Petty only won 7 cause not everyone could travel the schedule I think it was over a 100 races a year but I could be wrong, Dale Sr. won his the hard way, except the 3 he won when the Lumina came out and was superior to EVERYTHING. Don't forget DW while he is incredibly annoying at times on TV he was a heck of a driver. He did have good equipment when he ran Junior Johnson's stuff.

[Busch1724]

Yeah Earnhardt said in an interview after one of his championships that he would like to thank Darrell Waltrip for leaving Junior Johnson or he would be the one with more championships.