The Figure Four - ALL Things ECW-WWF-NJPW-TNA-ROH-AEW

[Guest sith lord]

flair just needs to go, hes pathetic, just cant compete or entertain anymore in the ring

Agreed, but he deserves a proper sendoff.

[Drakkhim]

flair just needs to go, hes pathetic, just cant compete or entertain anymore in the ring

You must not be too educated in Flair's history or pro-wrestling's history in general to say that.

[Guest sith lord]

You must not be too educated in Flair's history or pro-wrestling's history in general to say that.

You do agree that he needs to retire though.

[A Real Mench]

You must not be too educated in Flair's history or pro-wrestling's history in general to say that.

i guarentee i know more about wrestling than you do.... all i said was your man needed to retire that he wasnt entertaining anymroe... did i say anything about his past? no. so get off my back..... this isnt the same wrestling that we had with the macho man, or hulk hogan... you look at all the good matches now, 9/10 they invlovle high risk, and people taking huge bumps...... whens the last time flair has done anything of the sorts?

[Guest sith lord]

i guarentee i know more about wrestling than you do.... all i said was your man needed to retire that he wasnt entertaining anymroe... did i say anything about his past? no. so get off my back..... this isnt the same wrestling that we had with the macho man, or hulk hogan... you look at all the good matches now, 9/10 they invlovle high risk, and people taking huge bumps...... whens the last time flair has done anything of the sorts?

I hope that you're not implying that todays overly choreographed wrestling is better than than most of the wrestling I grew up with.

[A Real Mench]

I hope that you're not implying that todays overly choreographed wrestling is better than than most of the wrestling I grew up with.

it is better, and any match you name i can name one thats better

edit: not so much whats happened over the past 3-4 years, but between 1997 and 2003-2004 was the better than " what you grew up with"

foley vs undertaker hell in a cell

michaels and hart iron man match before 97, but was still better than anything from ur time

michaels undertaker hell in a cell

any rvd vs jerry lynn match

no match when you were growing up could entertain like those did

hell those are all off the top of my head, give me a bit and i can name many more

[Guest sith lord]

it is better, and any match you name i can name one thats better

edit not so much whats happened over the past 3-4 years, but between 1997 and 2003-2004 was the better than " what you grew up with"

Well, I'm off to work, but when I get back around 1:00 am, I'm gonna tear you a new one.

[A Real Mench]

Well, I'm off to work, but when I get back around 1:00 am, I'm gonna tear you a new one.

looking forward to it.... try to limit the number of hulk hogan and macho man matches, ill be asleep by then, but ill prove you wrong yet again when im back on here

[SonOfWashington]

exactly.

The Nation vs DX was so funny. remember X-pac as Mark Henry? Road Dogg as D-Lo? HHH as Vince or the "Crock"?

"I just got back from the bathroom......and you shouldn't have smelled what the Crock was cookin!"

I ain't fakin...you should've smelled what the rock was bakin!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Qnk4_j_x9I0

[A Real Mench]

I ain't fakin...you should've smelled what the rock was bakin!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Qnk4_j_x9I0

I LOOK LIKE A DAMN ROAD SIGN

[Guest sith lord]

looking forward to it.... try to limit the number of hulk hogan and macho man matches, ill be asleep by then, but ill prove you wrong yet again when im back on here

The problem with you young fans is that you think pro wrestling was invented in the late 90's. You guys are so in love with the Attitude era. Let me tell you, the WWE is still living off the success of the Hogan 80's. But just to let you know, Macho Man put on some great matches before he got roided up. Macho Man/Steamboat at WM 3 is the pro wrestling equivalent to Hagler/Hearns. Nonstop action at it's best and is still considered one of the greatest matches in history.

That being said, I was more into the NWA. In case you don't know, NWA stands for National Wrestling Alliance. By far, the most exciting wrestling I ever saw. They didn't rely on catch phrases or over the top storylines to get over, they did it in the ring. Unlike todays "spotfest", NWA matches for the most part told a story. There was a beginning, middle and end. It wasn't about sending someone through a breakable commentator's table for the umpteenth time, it was about wearing your opponent down.

Some of the greatest feuds in the history of wrestling came out of the NWA. Whenever Flair or any of the Horsemen for that matter and Rhodes were in the ring at the sametime, it was special. Can you honestly say that about any 2 superstars of your attitude era? Whenever the Rock and Roll Express took on the Midnight express, they tore the place down. And not just at the mega events mind you. They would teatr the house down at your run of the mill house show. Can you say the same about todays wrestling. NO. And I know because I've been to house shows in the 80's and I still attend a few. There's absolutely no comparison. Hell, the NWA were famous for having title changes at house shows(something I wish todays wrestling would do). When was the last time the WWE had a title change at a house show? I don't remember either.

I bet you even think that hell in a cell is something that good old Vince dreamed up all by himself. The NWA first unveiled a cage that surrounds the entire ring area years before it was introduced during the WWE Attitude Era. You want to see a real cage match, go watch the first War Games. I would put that match against any cage match of the Attitude Era. It don't get any better than Flair, Blanchard, Anderson, Luger and Dillon vs Rhodes, Nikita Koloff, The Road Warriors and Ellering. Your own JR would tell you the same. He called the match. If you're still not convinced, just watch the series of matches between Flair and Steamboat in 1989. Those were classics in the truest form.

I'm not saying that the Attitude Era was bad, It was good with great production, but it was not the best ever. Not by a long shot. Without guys like Hogan, Flair and Macho Man there probably wouldn't have been guys like The Rock, Stone Cold or Micheals. And if there were no Four Horsemen, there damn sure would not have been a DX. Don't believe me, JR said the samething on the Four Horsemen DVD.

[Blackest Eyes]

the attitude era was a rip off of ECW...a poor rip off at that.

[Guest sith lord]

the attitude era was a rip off of ECW...a poor rip off at that.

ECW was good, but it got stale pretty quickly.

[cyfar]

it is better, and any match you name i can name one thats better

edit: not so much whats happened over the past 3-4 years, but between 1997 and 2003-2004 was the better than " what you grew up with"

foley vs undertaker hell in a cell

michaels and hart iron man match before 97, but was still better than anything from ur time

michaels undertaker hell in a cell

any rvd vs jerry lynn match

no match when you were growing up could entertain like those did

hell those are all off the top of my head, give me a bit and i can name many more

Off of the top of my head...

Flair v. Rhodes....(my fave was the cage match when Rhodes took the title)

Flair v. Steamboat

Ronny Garvin v. Flair

Jake Roberts v. Undertaker

Sorry for all of the mentions of Flair but those were the most mermorable matches for me.

[Heidenreich]

Bret Hart v Mr Perfect- SummerSlam 1991

Bret Hart v British Bulldog- SummerSlam 1992

Bret Hart v Owen Hart- Wrestlemania X

The first HITC with Undertaker & Michaels was better than the Mankind one too. Mick Foley getting thrown off the top of a cage & laying there does not a great match make. A great moment, no doubt, but not a great match....

[Guest sith lord]

Off of the top of my head...

Flair v. Rhodes....(my fave was the cage match when Rhodes took the title)

Flair v. Steamboat

Ronny Garvin v. Flair

Jake Roberts v. Undertaker

Sorry for all of the mentions of Flair but those were the most mermorable matches for me.

There's to many to name, but the one that sticks out for me is the 1985 "I Quit" cage match between Tully Blanchard and Magnum TA.

[Drakkhim]

Magnum/Blanchard in the cage at Starrcade 1985 was incredible. Blanchard was bleeding like a stuck pig. Magnum carving out Blanchard's forehead with that sharp, busted piece of wooden chair was epic.

I started watching wrestling when I was three years old, circa 1982. I remember telling my grandparents to wake me up from my weekend afternoon naps in time to watch Georgia on TBS at 605pm. The first time that I ever saw Great Kabuki blow mist in someone's face and then attack with his sai's scared the bejesus out of my youngster self.

Since that time, I was instantly hooked. Being a true NWA kid up until the late 80s when our satellite dish couldn't pick up anything due to the channels being scrambled. We lived out in the country so cable TV wasn't an option. Every now and then, I'd be able to pick up something from Ch 11 in Pittsburgh but that was it. My grandfather would go to church and he'd drop me off at my Aunt's house so that I could watch WWF on Sunday's at noon on USA. Sometimes, I'd stay there all day so that I could watch NWA/WCW in the evening. My heart was always with the Crockett product.

I started taping a good bit of wrestling and buying up old commercial tapes at video stores that would try to make some cash on unusable tapes. I bought the commercial master of Starrcade 1985 for $5 in 1996. Little did I know how rare that tape was. I must've made over $500 making dubs of that tape to other collectors. It was due to that tape that my wrestling media collection was born. Today, I have over 500 VHS tapes as well as over 1000 DVDs going back to the late 60s. Most of my collection is of old WCW/NWA/WWF TV as well as a boatload of Japan. I'm a big mark for New Japan and All Japan.

To anyone who thinks that Flair is a joke, get your hands on some of his Japan bouts vs. Baba, Brody, Terry & Dory Funk, Tenryu, Tsuruta, Kerry Von Erich, Martel, etc... Flair was a God over there because even in Japan with their world titles, the NWA belt was considered the only real World Title. That really says something.

[Guest sith lord]

Magnum/Blanchard in the cage at Starrcade 1985 was incredible. Blanchard was bleeding like a stuck pig. Magnum carving out Blanchard's forehead with that sharp, busted piece of wooden chair was epic.

I started watching wrestling when I was three years old, circa 1982. I remember telling my grandparents to wake me up from my weekend afternoon naps in time to watch Georgia on TBS at 605pm. The first time that I ever saw Great Kabuki blow mist in someone's face and then attack with his sai's scared the bejesus out of my youngster self.

Since that time, I was instantly hooked. Being a true NWA kid up until the late 80s when our satellite dish couldn't pick up anything due to the channels being scrambled. We lived out in the country so cable TV wasn't an option. Every now and then, I'd be able to pick up something from Ch 11 in Pittsburgh but that was it. My grandfather would go to church and he'd drop me off at my Aunt's house so that I could watch WWF on Sunday's at noon on USA. Sometimes, I'd stay there all day so that I could watch NWA/WCW in the evening. My heart was always with the Crockett product.

I started taping a good bit of wrestling and buying up old commercial tapes at video stores that would try to make some cash on unusable tapes. I bought the commercial master of Starrcade 1985 for $5 in 1996. Little did I know how rare that tape was. I must've made over $500 making dubs of that tape to other collectors. It was due to that tape that my wrestling media collection was born. Today, I have over 500 VHS tapes as well as over 1000 DVDs going back to the late 60s. Most of my collection is of old WCW/NWA/WWF TV as well as a boatload of Japan. I'm a big mark for New Japan and All Japan.

To anyone who thinks that Flair is a joke, get your hands on some of his Japan bouts vs. Baba, Brody, Terry & Dory Funk, Tenryu, Tsuruta, Kerry Von Erich, Martel, etc... Flair was a God over there because even in Japan with their world titles, the NWA belt was considered the only real World Title. That really says something.

It's good to see someone that shares the same passion for the NWA as I do. Unlike these "World" titles of today, the NWA World title was actually defended around the world against other champions. It kills me when these young fans will call Flair a joke, but drool over Mick Foley or the Undertaker.

[cyfar]

It's good to see someone that shares the same passion for the NWA as I do. Unlike these "World" titles of today, the NWA World title was actually defended around the world against other champions. It kills me when these young fans will call Flair a joke, but drool over Mick Foley or the Undertaker.

Flair's a god. I would kill to see some of his stuff from Japan. I do understand where a lot of people are coming from that would love to see him take a seat. In my opinion, Flair was ready for the managerial role shortly after he did his tour of matches with all of the current WWE stars (matches vs the Rock, Trips and a few of the other big names). I actually thought that he would do that with Evolution, but he still continues to go out there. If his last match is at WM, they need to give that man a proper send off.

[Guest sith lord]

Flair's a god. I would kill to see some of his stuff from Japan. I do understand where a lot of people are coming from that would love to see him take a seat. In my opinion, Flair was ready for the managerial role shortly after he did his tour of matches with all of the current WWE stars (matches vs the Rock, Trips and a few of the other big names). I actually thought that he would do that with Evolution, but he still continues to go out there. If his last match is at WM, they need to give that man a proper send off.

Hey, I'm a Flair fan and I believe he should retire. But I don't like it when younger fans disrespect him calling him garbage and so on. And if WM is his last match, I'm sure the locker room will empty and they'll all come out and applaud him.

[TK]

When Flair does retire, I'd actually like to see him go out against Sting. Just like they did on the final Nitro when neither of them knew what the future would hold for them or the industry. In a perfect world, that match would happen on the grand stage of WrestleMania. Unfortunately, Sting has been on the record as never wanting to work for Vince.

[A Real Mench]

and it makes me sick to see you old fans drool over wrestler who could never do what the guys now are doing.. so whats your point..

[Guest sith lord]

When Flair does retire, I'd actually like to see him go out against Sting. Just like they did on the final Nitro when neither of them knew what the future would hold for them or the industry. In a perfect world, that match would happen on the grand stage of WrestleMania. Unfortunately, Sting has been on the record as never wanting to work for Vince.

I would love to see that, but it would take a minor miracle for Sting to work for Vince. But if he's not signed by TNA at the time, who knows?

[Guest sith lord]

and it makes me sick to see you old fans drool over wrestler who could never do what the guys now are doing.. so whats your point..

Oh yeah, that great wrestler named Cena would wrestle circles around Flair in his prime.

Note the sarcasm.

[Drakkhim]

There is a difference between wrestling and entertaining. What made Flair great is that he could do both. You have guys in the business know who don't know the difference between a wristlock and a wris****ch. In the territory days, an up and comer could work somewhere for a month, hone is skills and go somewhere else. There were endless outlets for someone 20 years ago to break into the business. Nowadays, if the WWE or TNA don't want you, you cannot get a big payday in the US.

So let's take Ric Flair as an example here. We have a post that says, "and it makes me sick to see you old fans drool over wrestler who could never do what the guys now are doing.. so whats your point.."

Ok, fair enough. Regardless of how good a wrestler is in the ring or on the mic, what is the common factor that ANY wrestler must have? To draw people and make money. Ric Flair made A LOT of people money especially in the 80s. The only wrestler to possibly be ahead of him would be Hogan. Flair at times was working nine times a week, twice on weekends, defending the World Title anywhere. If you were a promoter and Ric Flair was going to work in your arena in a title match, you were guaranteed a sell-out. GUARANTEED. And when Flair was coming to town, win or lose, you were going to be entertained. At one point in 1986, Flair wrestled one half of the Rock N' Roll Express, Ricky Morton to nine, yes NINE 60-minute draws in one week. I have one of these on DVD from a fancam and it was a ridiculously good match. Fans back then were always fired up.

Next point is that guys back then could never do what guys do now. Well, you know what? They didn't have to. Matches had a beginning, a middle and an end. Just like a movie. When two guys went at each other, it was because of a general distate for one another. "I hate you and you hate me. Let's fight." That was the mentality. In the current times, there are few angles that truly go by this standard. Sports Entertainment for the most part is an absolute joke. How much talent really does it take for someone to get chucked off of the top of a cage? None. Don't get me wrong, I've been a fan of Foley since 1989 when he was Cactus Jack Manson. But Foley, through all of the battles he's gone through and blood spilled is more towards the stuntman persona than an actual wrestler. He got over because he was willing to die out there.

In 1995, he worked a deathmatch tournament in Japan for the IWA. He wrestled at least three grueling matches outside in a baseball stadium with the heat beating down him. In the final, he worked against Terry Funk in a landmine/barbed wire match. The big long scar on his left arm was due to that match. He won a trophy at the end and $300. $300!! The trophy disappeared before he even left Japan.

I will always have respect for guys like Foley. But to say that someone like Flair couldn't do what he does is insane. Flair never had to do anything like that to get over with the fans. He had a natural ability to talk on the mic and work a match with anyone and make them look good.