Any Extreme members have a reef fishtank setup? [Fresh water also discussed]

[CHUBAKAH]

i'll probably end up bowing to chubakah's superior fish knowledge, but i'd argue against getting as many as 20 goldfish and letting them die off, for several reasons.

1. i dont think you need that many fish, theyre going to be putting A LOT of ammonia into your water, and many of the probably will die before the proper biological things start happening and break down the ammonia.

2. i think its cruel to let goldfish die just so your tank can get set up properly. you might not, but ill leave that up to you.

3. im pretty sure you can cycle your tank just as effectively with other fish instead, fish you might actually want. for instance, i cycled mine with 6 tiger barbs, a relatively hardy and cheap fish i decided i wanted long term. after cycling was done, i added 4 more. i still have all 10, and love them.

4. this is the part im really not sure on, so double check this. on a forum for SW i was reading the other day, a guy cycled his tank with a couple dead ****tail shrimp. i think that anything decomposing will release the proper bacteria you need, but im not sure on this. if this is true, you dont need to waste money/time/effort on goldfish you dont want/need.

:2cents:

I'm not suggesting that he keep the goldfish, in fact if you tell the fish store you are using them to cycle your tank, they will thke them back when you are done. While 20 goldfish may sound like a lot, unless they have some size to them, they will die regardless, but your right, if they are large goldfish you will only need 5 or 6.

My logic is that most people who know about cycling tanks buy "feeder" goldfish which are quite small, and normally around 10 for 2 bucks, while your larger goldfish are called pets, and cost about 2 bucks and up each. I'd never suggest trying to kill the fish, or letting them die off, it's just what happens a lot with brand new tanks.

Goldfish can live in a glass of water with no filtration for days at a time. Try putting a tiger barb in a glass of water, and come back 6 hours later. While barbs are known as a hardy fish, your taking a much larger chance of killing them apposed to goldfish.

It's really going to have a lot to do with what the water is like in your area as to how many fish will be alive after your tank is cycled.

[nickfox45]

I'm not suggesting that he keep the goldfish, in fact if you tell the fish store you are using them to cycle your tank, they will thke them back when you are done. While 20 goldfish may sound like a lot, unless they have some size to them, they will die regardless, but your right, if they are large goldfish you will only need 5 or 6.

My logic is that most people who know about cycling tanks buy "feeder" goldfish which are quite small, and normally around 10 for 2 bucks, while your larger goldfish are called pets, and cost about 2 bucks and up each. I'd never suggest trying to kill the fish, or letting them die off, it's just what happens a lot with brand new tanks.

Goldfish can live in a glass of water with no filtration for days at a time. Try putting a tiger barb in a glass of water, and come back 6 hours later. While barbs are known as a hardy fish, your taking a much larger chance of killing them apposed to goldfish.

It's really going to have a lot to do with what the water is like in your area as to how many fish will be alive after your tank is cycled.

i did it here in boston with gross, hard city water. point taken on the tiger barb in a glass of water, but hopefully this tank will have some filtration, and not be a glass of still water. at least now the poster knows the distinction between the two goldfish, as i certainly didnt.

so it looks more and more likely i wont be taking my fish with me, which is a bit upsetting. i dont have a tank at home for them, and im looking into prices now of around a 30 gallon. do you think that would be big enough for...

10 tiger barbs

6 black skirt tetras

1 red tailed black shark?

[CHUBAKAH]

around a 30 gallon. do you think that would be big enough for...

10 tiger barbs

6 black skirt tetras

1 red tailed black shark?

If really small then yeah for a little while, but that is a lot of fish for 30 gallons. I have less in my 100 gallon. I like about 7 gallons per fish in freshwater.

[nickfox45]

If really small then yeah for a little while, but that is a lot of fish for 30 gallons. I have less in my 100 gallon. I like about 7 gallons per fish in freshwater.

i dont want to cramp their style. the barbs and tetras are a decent size, but the RTBS is still 2 inches max. i might just give back the tetras(dont like them that much) and try to take home the barbs and shark. we shall see.

[CHUBAKAH]

I'm suprized you still have barbs. Most red tails are aggressive, and will kill the barbs off.

[nickfox45]

I'm suprized you still have barbs. Most red tails are aggressive, and will kill the barbs off.

the barbs have always been so much more numerous and until recently, larger than the shark, i think thats the difference. they all have enough space right now in my 55, but the shark doesnt like it when they come around his rock and will chase them away.

lately though, ive been feeding sinking pellets to get the shark more food, and the barbs try to hog it, but he doesnt stand for that, and chases them away unitl he's had enough food or gives up. its pretty fun to watch.

also, just wanted to say i'm suprised at how many people have fish tanks, i would've never guessed. this is awesome!

[Grumpy Vet]

Sounds good to me.

Grumpy, do you have anyone or know of any sites where you can get live rock, and sand, at a reasonable price.

I’m also interested to know if there are any types that are better then the other as far as live rock?

Here are a few sites that come highly recommended. The first two - I'd have no reservations....I've bought from them. The other one I don't know - but has come highly recommended.

http://www.premiumaquatics.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=Liverock

http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/scateg.cfm?pCatId=393

http://www.coralhq.com/store/

I like to mix up my rock - it looks more realistic. I generally go w/ Premium Fiji. I also like to throw in some branch Tonga. I go w/ uncured and cure it myself.

"The term cure is a slang word that is applies to the process of conditioning or cycling live rock (LR) for use in a sal****er aquarium. Cured means that it is live rock that has already been conditioned and is stable to use right away in an aquarium with minimal concern under certain guidelines. Another term often used in reference to cured live rock is seeded, as well as precured, fully cured or cycled. When you see live rock labeled as fresh, uncured or unseeded this means it is NOT cured and it shouldn't be placed directly into a main aquarium until you cure it. When it comes to transhipped labeling this usually means it is not cured, but in some cases a supplier may ship it in and precure it first, or may offer both types of transhipped rock for sale."

Something to watch for - a very dense rock of the same size as a lighter rock can cost 2x the price for the same volume, look and filtering capability.

If you are buying LR - Heavy LR is not a good thing.....gets very expensive.

I also saw you guys were talking about cycling tanks and introducing ammonia into the tank. There are several schools of thoughts. If you go onto a message board devoted to fish - a word of warning.....don't tell them you are cycling w/ goldfish - freshwater or damsels - sal****er.

It is definitely stressful on the fish and they generally die. This pisses most people off on these boards.

There are other ways to cycle a tank and start the "cycle" ammonia --> nitrate --> nitrite --> happyfishwater.

One method is to "shrimpify" the tank. It really stinks....

Check out this link:

http://www.fishlore.com/NitrogenCycle.htm

under Fishless cycle.

[edgun88]

Hey guys, I was wondering about this method. What if I use the goldfish, as Chubakah stated above, but change 10-20% of the water every week to keep the ammonia levels down. This way the fish wont die. Will the bacteria still grow? I imagine they will grow at a slower rate, but would this work?

[jrockster21]

I keep a nice collection of clown fish, also known as the Jrock fish....they are really easy to maintain.

All kidding aside, I do have a 30 gal with 1 Ciclid, the SOB eats everything I put in the tank with it.

Are there any boards for us newbies?

Dori thinks I'm hot!!

Nice job, halter...I didn't even see this one until today though!! :laugh:

[edgun88]

hey i was wondering if someone could answer my question above. Thanks

[Grumpy Vet]

Hey guys, I was wondering about this method. What if I use the goldfish, as Chubakah stated above, but change 10-20% of the water every week to keep the ammonia levels down. This way the fish wont die. Will the bacteria still grow? I imagine they will grow at a slower rate, but would this work?

Yes.....I believe it would eventually work. It would still be very stressful to the fish. The tank needs to reach a pretty nasty level before it begins the cycle.

I think it would work. It would be a slower process.

[Raub]

You can buy a product that contains bacteria that will shorten your cycle time. I don't recall the name of it, but any Petsmart should have it.

[CHUBAKAH]

hey i was wondering if someone could answer my question above. Thanks

Best advice I can give is to have a good test kit, which means NO test strips. Get a kit that has a liquid test. If you see is rise in ammonia, do a small water change at that point. Check it again the next day, and see where it is. Yo will see a spike in the ammonia before you ever see any traces of nitrate.

If you do decide to use fish, you will want to feed them very little. [Fact is a good fish food Alone will cycle a tank]

Also remember to use some sort of a fish slime based product that also removes chlorine.

I personally use "StressCoat" with Aloe Vera made by Aquarium Pharmaceuticals, Inc. There are lots of different products out there, so pick one that is right in the middle for price.

While there will always be an argument about the "Best" way to cycle a tank, I have used fish for over thirty years. Everyone is going to be different also, in that some people will set up the tank, and walk away for days at a time thinking they don't have to test it. You may be that kind of person. I myself am very passionate about my hobby, and will check it twice a day while cycling, and make the adjustments as they need to be made.

If you are on top of it I can promise you, you will not lose a fish that was not going to die anyway because of some kind of problem.

IMHO the guys that ***** and moan about using fish to cycle, are the same guys that don't take the hobby serious enough, or are too damn lazy to do the work involved in not letting your cycle fish get stressed, and or die. There also the same guys that will also tell you they haven't done a water change in weeks, and or even months.

:2cents:

[CHUBAKAH]

Here are a few sites that come highly recommended. The first two - I'd have no reservations....I've bought from them. The other one I don't know - but has come highly recommended.

http://www.premiumaquatics.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=Liverock

http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/scateg.cfm?pCatId=393

http://www.coralhq.com/store/

Thanks for the links Grump. The first one however seems to be dead. The second one seems very nicly priced. :applause:

:notworthy

EDIT: I take that back. The link is working today...

[Grumpy Vet]

You are most welcome. Buy from the top two w/ confidence. Both nice resources and reputable companies.

When you are ready to buy critters online - let me know.....It is the only way I buy my clean up crews.....

[edgun88]

Best advice I can give is to have a good test kit, which means NO test strips. Get a kit that has a liquid test. If you see is rise in ammonia, do a small water change at that point. Check it again the next day, and see where it is. Yo will see a spike in the ammonia before you ever see any traces of nitrate.

If you do decide to use fish, you will want to feed them very little. [Fact is a good fish food Alone will cycle a tank]

Also remember to use some sort of a fish slime based product that also removes chlorine.

I personally use "StressCoat" with Aloe Vera made by Aquarium Pharmaceuticals, Inc. There are lots of different products out there, so pick one that is right in the middle for price.

While there will always be an argument about the "Best" way to cycle a tank, I have used fish for over thirty years. Everyone is going to be different also, in that some people will set up the tank, and walk away for days at a time thinking they don't have to test it. You may be that kind of person. I myself am very passionate about my hobby, and will check it twice a day while cycling, and make the adjustments as they need to be made.

If you are on top of it I can promise you, you will not lose a fish that was not going to die anyway because of some kind of problem.

IMHO the guys that ***** and moan about using fish to cycle, are the same guys that don't take the hobby serious enough, or are too damn lazy to do the work involved in not letting your cycle fish get stressed, and or die. There also the same guys that will also tell you they haven't done a water change in weeks, and or even months.

:2cents:

Thanks man. So I can put fish in the tank and when the ammonia gets too high then change a percentage of the water. I also have liquid testing kits. I know how those paper ones can be. :doh:

[edgun88]

You are most welcome. Buy from the top two w/ confidence. Both nice resources and reputable companies.

When you are ready to buy critters online - let me know.....It is the only way I buy my clean up crews.....

Clean up crews meaning what? Just wondering

[CHUBAKAH]

Clean up crews meaning what? Just wondering

Fish poop, food that is left around, things of that nature.

[nickfox45]

IMHO the guys that ***** and moan about using fish to cycle, are the same guys that don't take the hobby serious enough, or are too damn lazy to do the work involved in not letting your cycle fish get stressed, and or die. There also the same guys that will also tell you they haven't done a water change in weeks, and or even months.

you're right in that everyone goes about the hobby differently, with varying opinions on how to do almost everything. ironically, i'm very interested in setting up a system in the future that'll allow me to not have to make water changes at all. but thats because i think recreating the ecosystem and letting it function on its own is infinitely more fun than constantly keeping it afloat with outside help. :2cents:

[Tarhog]

One point - don't know if any of the experts here want to chime in, but we have an outstanding fish/reptile dealer in my area called 'Aquamains' - they SELL pre-conditioned water (fresh and sal****er) you can buy to start your tank off with. They even sell exchange water...... might be worth checking into although I've never used it.

[CHUBAKAH]

Speaking of killer looking salt water fish, I think I need a whole team, I mean school of these.

I mean this guys must be fans right?

[nickfox45]

Speaking of killer looking salt water fish, I think I need a whole team, I mean school of these.

I mean this guys must be fans right?

haha what are those, a kind of clown fish? far into the future when i can afford to start a SW tank, ill definitely want a clown fish...why not a burgundy and gold one!

[CHUBAKAH]

you're right in that everyone goes about the hobby differently, with varying opinions on how to do almost everything. ironically, i'm very interested in setting up a system in the future that'll allow me to not have to make water changes at all. but thats because i think recreating the ecosystem and letting it function on its own is infinitely more fun than constantly keeping it afloat with outside help. :2cents:

Well you will have to let all of us know how that goes. Just curious how many hundred gallons are you planning to create this system with?

[nickfox45]

Well you will have to let all of us know how that goes. Just curious how many hundred gallons are you planning to create this system with?

do i sense a little sarcasm? :whoknows:

in theory, it should work with any number of gallons, once the plants and macroalgaes are up and running. are you insinuating i'd need several hundred gallons because problems in those tanks would have a less drastic effect on the system? i know it would be harder to do it with a smaller number of gallons, but i think its possible.

right now im thinking about a 29 gal to start with(and to keep cost down). initially i wanted a 55 or a 75, but that doesnt seem to increase your stocking options much. for instance, the minimum size for most tangs is 75-120 gals. eventually i'd like to get a 120, and then use my 29 as a sump or a refugium.

[Raub]

I really think it would be difficult to set up a healthy tank without water changes unless you're talking about a huge volume of water. There just isn't the margin of error in aquariums that there is in the wild. I've seen people just keep adding water to tanks as it evaporates and they always end up with unhealthy tanks and can't figure out why.