It's (almost) Official: Playing Brunell was a Mistake

[jrockster21]

But Ramsey's stats from previous years do. Makes sense.

:doh:

The only stat in question is Brunell's interception total at this point, which is 5. What do Brunell's stats from previous years have to do with how many interceptions Patrick Ramsey may or may not have thrown at this point in the season???

[Destino]

Say what you want but AJ makes a great point. The organization as a whole would be a lot better off developing one of our young QBs then losing with a vet. The logic behind the switch to Brunell was always win now, and that isn't happening. Worse still Brunell is making bad decisions and giving up a ton of fumbles, more often then he is playing great football.

[TheSteve]

:doh:

The only stat in question is Brunell's interception total at this point, which is 5. What do Brunell's stats from previous years have to do with how many interceptions Patrick Ramsey may or may not have thrown at this point in the season???

Brunell also has 6 fumbles lost. That's 11 TO's on the season, or slightly more than one TO per game. He had problems fumbling last year as well.

[jrockster21]

Throwing the ball away in the 4th quarter when your trying to protect a lead, get a lead or win a game is simply stupid. Yes throwing an interception is worse, but I'm so sick sick sick of seeing Brunell throw the ball away on 3rd down. With our sucking punting, I'd prefer an interception down field. What's the worst that could happen? Bad field position for the other team? I mean sheesh give our talented WR a chance to go up and get a ball.

No, the worst that could happen would be interception return for a touchdown or a large chunk of yardage...:doh:

Brunell throws the ball away -- all great quarterbacks throw the ball away. Its part of the job description. As many times as he's thrown the ball away he's made the tight throw to his receiver. And again, you can't fault Brunell for dropped passes.

[dfitzo53]

Say what you want but AJ makes a great point. The organization as a whole would be a lot better off developing one of our young QBs then losing with a vet. The logic behind the switch to Brunell was always win now, and that isn't happening. Worse still Brunell is making bad decisions and giving up a ton of fumbles, more often then he is playing great football.

Yes, AJ appears to have been right that we would have been better off not starting Brunell. However, that doesn't make starting Brunell the wrong decision at the beginning of the season.

[redskin81]

You mean the preseason and one quarter of week one experiment? As opposed to the regular season Brunell experiment that has landed us out of the playoffs two years in a row?

Ramsey started how many games last year? If he had lit it up be assured that Joe Gibbs wouldnt have been looking to give him the quick hook this year.

[jrockster21]

Brunell also has 6 fumbles lost. That's 11 TO's on the season, or slightly more than one TO per game. He had problems fumbling last year as well.

Um, we've played 11 games, so 11 TO's would be exactly one turnover per game. :doh:

I've already admitted in this thread and many others that turnovers have killed us this year, however I'm not convinced (and frankly, I can't see how anyone else COULD be) that with Ramsey in there the turnover ratio would be any better.

[DE SKINS FAN]

I answer your question with another question:

Was it completely clear who WAS the best player at the quarterback position, or was it somewhat hazy, was it sort of unclear just who was the best man for the job? And if it, was somewhat unclear on which player was the best to put our team in position to win, then perhaps this situation could be referred to as a judgement call? And if this was a judgement call, then is there the possibility that the judgement made, could be judgement wrong?

And if it was judgement wrong, are you willing to consider the possiblility that it is so? Because it doesn't seem to me that you are at that point in your reasoning yet.

You are still hung up on a seemingly false premise that the judgement was uncapable of being wrong, and thus anyone who questions it is always incorrect. I challenge you to challenge yourself that maybe your thinking is somewhat offbase.

Great point. I could say something like Joe Gibbs did not have a "hazy" picture of who was the better QB, and had all the clarity needed as the Head Football coach to know who would give us the best chance to win. But whether or not Brunell was the better QB at the end of preseason is not the original poster's argument.

His argument is whether it was a mistake to play the older guy because if we played the younger guy we would at least know "where we stand". I'm guessing that means we would know definitively that Ramsey is good or not. And to me that seems completely crazy. Risk 8 or 9 games just to get to the bottom of that?? No thanks.

I'll trust Joe Gibbs's judgement call. He wants to "win now" and I'm all for that mentality.

Was it really not clear to you guys after watching all those preseason games? I love Ramsey, but the picture was not hazy at all.

[red21skins]

Since when is it a mistake to start a qb who is #4 in the conference in passer rating, and is #2 in the league with fewest INT's. 17-27 200 yrds and 1 TD pass are not bad numbers. If you think its easy to throw another QB in that will do better than brunell than u dont know football. ramsey is where he should be and always will be, on the bench. Gibbs is not not putting cambell in because we are not giving up on the season, we still have a chance.

[BlackOps]

Brunell was a win-now guy. He's too old to play next year and be effective. Good guy but age just got to him. For some reason, Gibbs has a grudge against Ramsey. His time will come if and only if Campbell can't do it for them. One, either Campbell or Ramsey, will be good talent wasted. You just have to decide which and I really beleive that for here on out you give it to Ramsey and next year should start with this QB controversy: Campbell or Ramsey? Brunell needs to teach them and call plays.

[renegademrnate23]

Yeh but Mark is NOT the reason for the last 3 losses.

[AJ_Skins]

:doh:

The only stat in question is Brunell's interception total at this point, which is 5. What do Brunell's stats from previous years have to do with how many interceptions Patrick Ramsey may or may not have thrown at this point in the season???

The only truly accurate way to compare the two is by looking at their stats last year, when they played a similar amount of time, with the same team around them. I did that earlier in the year, and it came out to something like 1 turnover per game for Brunell to 1.333 for Ramsey. Meanwhile, Ramsey substantially outperformed Brunell in most of the major passing stats. Ramsey throws more INTs, but Brunell fumbles. Fumbles from a QB are worse than INTs because they almost always come behind the line of scrimmage, rather than downfield, which means the opponent gets 10, 20 or 30 yds better field position from the fumble.

[jrockster21]

And honestly -- as many times as Brunell has been sacked, do you really think Ramsey would not have lost his fair share of fumbles? Maybe not 6 as Brunell has done, I'm sure he would have lost at least a couple. And with Ramsey in there you lose the potential for a big 3rd down scramble.

[Destino]

Yes, AJ appears to have been right that we would have been better off not starting Brunell. However, that doesn't make starting Brunell the wrong decision at the beginning of the season.

The team had several options, go for the long term gain by developing players, adding draft picks, and shedding malcontents with heavy contracts.....or they could go for the win now strategy and play the vets and add talent immediately. The team chose to go for win now. We are not winning now and that's a big problem.

[jrockster21]

The only truly accurate way to compare the two is by looking at their stats last year, when they played a similar amount of time, with the same team around them. I did that earlier in the year, and it came out to something like 1 turnover per game for Brunell to 1.333 for Ramsey. Meanwhile, Ramsey substantially outperformed Brunell in most of the major passing stats. Ramsey throws more INTs, but Brunell fumbles. Fumbles from a QB are worse than INTs because they almost always come behind the line of scrimmage, rather than downfield, which means the opponent gets 10, 20 or 30 yds better field position fron the fumble.

Dude, your head really is harder than any known substance on earth. Oh my ****ing god, dude. The statement made was that Ramsey would have twice as many interceptions as Brunell at this point in the season, which would be 10. I'll say it again, and shout it this time to try and permeate your solid-steel skull: WHAT DO BRUNELL'S STATS FROM PREVIOUS SEASONS HAVE TO DO WITH HOW MANY INTERCEPTIONS RAMSEY WOULD OR WOULD NOT HAVE THROWN THIS SEASON!??!?!?!!?!?

I wasn't comparing their past performances, I was comparing Ramsey's potential performance this season to Brunell's ACTUAL performance this season. THIS SEASON. Question: when you bump your head on stuff do you leave huge dents?

[panel]

Brunell is throwing the ball a lot better than last year, but you'd have to suck preatty bad not to do that, Mark may not have sucked as much this year (acctualy preaty good) but who doesn't get nervous when he nervously bootlegs out of the pocket, or before he runs, he taks 2 seconds of desiding wheather to run or pass, you can feel the fumbles coming.

I doubt that if Ramsey had ben playing he would have the same number of takeaways. Yeah, you should protect the QB, but at some point you need to neld resonsable for your fumbles, you can smell them from a mile away, the way he hold the ball out there.

[jrockster21]

Brunell is throwing the ball a lot better than last year, but you'd have to suck preatty bad not to do that, Mark may not have sucked as much this year (acctualy preaty good) but who doesn't get nervous when he nervously bootlegs out of the pocket, or before he runs, he taks 2 seconds of desiding wheather to run or pass, you can feel the fumbles coming.

I doubt that if Ramsey had ben playing he would have the same number of takeaways. Yeah, you should protect the QB, but at some point you need to neld resonsable for your fumbles, you can smell them from a mile away, the way he hold the ball out there.

Brunell has zero takeaways, and if Ramsey had played this year, you are right, he might have had more than zero. I mean, when you are throwing tons of interceptions, you have a chance to strip the ball because you are suddenly on defense. Good point, panel.

[Destino]

Brunell has zero takeaways, and if Ramsey had played this year, you are right, he might have had more than zero. I mean, when you are throwing tons of interceptions, you have a chance to strip the ball because you are suddenly on defense. Good point, panel.

:laugh: :laugh:

Why so mean :/

[jrockster21]

:laugh: :laugh:

Why so mean :/

:laugh: I'm in a mean mood. Watching the Skins blow yet another 4th quarter lead does that to me. :mad:

[DCMONEY]

Even though Brunell has played better than he did last season, he still wasn't worth what the Skins invested in him. PERIOD! I won't go into the over compensation that the Skins have done in the off season. I've said several times in the past especially in the off season that you can't make a heavy investment and then turn around and say lets see if it will work. You better be damn sure when you break the bank to make certain moves. The worst Washington plays, the better the Broncos feel about the 1st rd pick they got from Wash. I got a feeling for future reference also that the Skins will panic and make a foolish transaction just to get into the 1st rd. next season.

[KirkNC]

LOL>

Ramsey is only the answer to the question if the question is: "What has little to no trade value?"

To say the season was going to go this way... frankly Brunell while not the second coming has been a very solid performer.

Most of our woes this year can be traced to the D

[scruffylookin]

I was a Ramsey guy and felt his benching was undeserved and premature.

But.

Mark Brunell is not the reason we are 5-6. I seriously doubt Ramsey would have engineered any additional wins.

It's obvious (now) that Gibbs does not trust Ramsey and so it's all a moot point. Ramsey will not be back next year. Whether or not this turns out to be a long term mistake remains to be seen. But whatever Ramsey's potential and future holds in this league, it won't be realized here with the Skins.

[knowledge316]

One thing I just don't understand is why everyone seems to think that Ramsey throws too many interceptions. Last season when he started the last 7 games, he threw 8 TDs and had 6 Ints and 3 Fumbles. In 2003, the had 14/9. Now, to me that doesn't show that he throws a lot of INTs. Can someone explain?

[BrunellSuperbowl]

I was a Ramsey guy and felt his benching was undeserved and premature.

But.

Mark Brunell is not the reason we are 5-6. I seriously doubt Ramsey would have engineered any additional wins.

It's obvious (now) that Gibbs does not trust Ramsey and so it's all a moot point. Ramsey will not be back next year. Whether or not this turns out to be a long term mistake remains to be seen. But whatever Ramsey's potential and future holds in this league, it won't be realized here with the Skins.

thats the best think you can see about brunell. HE IS NOT THE REASON THIS HAPPEND. He is basically a nothing, a non factor. A QB should be the reason YOU WIN CLOSE GAMES, BLOW OUT TEAMS, not just not the reason you lost.

Its time we get a QB in here that wins games. When a QB is not doing anything to help you win, you wont win many games since he has the ball more then anybody

[dfitzo53]

The team had several options, go for the long term gain by developing players, adding draft picks, and shedding malcontents with heavy contracts.....or they could go for the win now strategy and play the vets and add talent immediately. The team chose to go for win now. We are not winning now and that's a big problem.

Of course it's a problem. I never said it wasn't.