Regarding those who toss personal insults at Joe Gibbs (mega-merge)

[Saqs]

let me be the first poster to say that if the skins beat dallas it will be b/c of the defense and Clinton Portis and the O-line. Mark Boonell will not win this game for the Skins.

That's just the thing though. We dont need him to win it for us. We need him to not LOSE it for us.

[G-Prime]

It was his second pass attempt. Not only did Ramsey hold the ball too long he held it over his head with one hand.

Um.. no he didn't.. lol Ramsey didn't hold the ball too long.. He drop back and bam. Even the announcers said it. Jansen missed a block and the defender came in scott free.

[NastyBoy]

let me be the first poster to say that if the skins beat dallas it will be b/c of the defense and Clinton Portis and the O-line. Mark Boonell will not win this game for the Skins.

Perhaps not, but I betcha he won't be the one to lose it either.

[barefoot]

I think you missed my point. Im sure gibbs wants to win win win but again back to last yr with brunell, we werent winning but he stuck with him. thats called giving a player a fair chance. What he did with ramsey in my mind is pretty sad. basically what im saying is ramsey never had a chance.

Again, I'd rather see PR in there, he's a gun slinger, But it's the TO's, and JG's football from day one is NO TO's. I'm not a huge Brunell fan, but he doesn't turn the ball over. This preseason Ramsey was TO prone and in week 1 also. I agree that it was a surprisingly short leash, but I think PR did it to himself in the preseason with int's. I wish things were different, but they aren't.

[G-Prime]

And about that idiotic stat that people keep throwing out. "Ramsey had more yards in 1 quarter then Brunell had in 3." I wonder that that light bulb is going to ding that says Brunell only had 3 more attempts. It's measured by that, not by the amount of quarters you play. What a joke.

Um ok so Brunell had 3 more attempts then Ramsey and still only managed 70 yards? hmmm way to go!

[LiveStrongSkins]

Justify it however you will.. Brunell played 3 quarters. The bottom line is he had throwing chances and still only put up 70 yards. That's not speculation it's fact, I'm not sure why your choosing such a weak platform to defend Brunell.

You have it mistaken bro. You are using that weak platform. It does not matter how many quarters you play. It's about the attempts. It's not like Ramsey was sitting back there picking the Bears apart. He was the beneficiary of moss breaking a tackle and taking it down the field. Quarters mean absolutely nothing though man, it's about the attempts.

[bobzmuda]

When Joe Gibbs came back to DC I was very excited. I thought "Great some integrity will do us some good". I'm very disappointed in him. My father always told me "Do what you say your going to do", I kind of hold everyone around me to that expectation. You tell me your going to do something, I expect that it gets done. If I tell you I'm going to do something, take it to the bank.

Three big issues that bother me the most.

Smoot - A "core Redskin" that we let slip away.

Pierce - A "core Redskin" that we let slip away.

Ramsey - Simply lied to the poor guy.

Smoot and Pierce were made VERY competitive offers. That they didn't accept a bit less or a different structure says more about them and their agents than the Redskins. Ramsey wasn't lied to - he was deemed the starter, and DESPITE Ramsey's apparently poor off-season and pre-season performance Gibbs started him in the season opener. It appears that Gibbs went out of his way to keep his word to Ramsey that he would be the starter even though Gibbs clearly saw that Ramsey continued to turn the ball over.

Call it what you want, but Gibbs lied to Ramsey. Not what I call integrity. I don't fault Gibbs for wanting Brunell over Ramsey, but Gibbs and Co, did Patrick wrong. Really really wrong. What pisses me off about Gibbs is, if he didn't want Patrick he could have cut him offseason, saved money on the cap, maybe with enough room to keep Smoot and Pierce. Also to give Patrick the chance to compete for a starting spot on another team.

Sigh. Why didn't Gibbs cut Ramsey at the start of the off-season? What motiviation did Gibbs have? Either A) a conspiracy to screw Patrick Ramsey OR Gibbs planned to start Ramsey after an offseason of progressing as a QB. Despite Ramsey not progressing in the offseason, Gibbs kept his word and started him.

The poor guy got screwed over by the Redskins yet again. It's like Gibbs doesn't like Ramsey and that's cool, but then it's like well here let me screw you one more time before I take your job from you. Even though you performed better in a single quarter then my guy Brunell did in three.

Man, you're like a teenage girl with all this. Here, this should help -> http://www.livejournal.com/

If you think this evaluation boiled down to a single quarter of performance (or lack of) you aren't taking a very sophisticated look at this situation.

The "Gibbs till I die" folk will probably slam me but I don't care.. I'm a Redskin till I die. These moves especially the last one makes our team look bad... I don't know if PR can prove to be the better QB, he was promised a fair shot and didn't get it. 6 or 7 quarters of play isn't a shot. It's a slap in the face.

So off-season mini-camps, OTAs, training camps, practices don't count? Gibbs has seen more of Ramsey than you have. If you'd take the clues he's been offering all offseason about BEING SMART/PROTECTING THE BALL/ETC. you'd realize that those were ongoing concerns during the off-season. Just this pre-season Ramsey had 4 turnovers in about 2+ games worth of action. Ramsey had 2 turnovers against the Bears. If a QB is going to average 2 turnovers per game he needs to be putting up 3 TDs per game; Ramsey wasn't doing that either.

Folks are simply willing to put up with Ramsey's turnovers for the potential that Ramsey offers. And right now it's time to go with production and protection of the football.

I'm very disappointed at Gibbs and his lack of integrity right now. Even if Mark leads us to the Superbowl, I'll be excited for the Skins. but I'll always have to take what Gibbs says with a grain of salt and I never in a million years thought I'd have to do that.

Do what you say your going to do, or keep your mouth shut.

:confused: Gibbs did what he said he would do. Maybe you just didn't keep your ears open to hear what he meant and your eyes open to see what was happening.

[ST21]

Okay........let's visit another position..........say kickoff and punt returner (Antonio Brown). I think in his short stint he has put us in far worse situations than PR and I do not see him getting pulled.

I look at it like this..........if the Redskins released Boonell today, would anyone pick him up. I'm guessing maybe, but it would be backup role only. Even in Chicago, Miami, or Arizona he would only be a backup. I do not even know if he would be picked up.

[LiveStrongSkins]

Um ok so Brunell had 3 more attempts then Ramsey and still only managed 70 yards? hmmm way to go!

I guess it really clear you lack the inside knowledge of the QB position. The change in playcalling after the defense tightens up, the need to only throw intermediate routes when Portis is getting 6-7 yards on first down. And more importantly, no turnovers.

[stevenaa]

Gibbs said Ramsey would start and he did. He never said he'd keep starting him if his play didn't warrant it. Gibbs did exactly what he said he would do. I believe Gibbs would have liked to have made this decision sooner. But, he stuck by his word and started PR. Ramsey did nothing in Preseason to show he'd made a big improvement in limiting mistakes and turnovers. Had it been an open competition, Brunell would have started. He looked better in preseason. I don't recall hearing Gibbs say patrick was his starter for the season no matter what. That was never part of the equation. I'm a big PR fan, and I hate this. But, I don't think Gibbs went back on his word. You may not agree with how quickly he made the change, but he did start PR.

Last year we all griped that Gibbs kept Brunell in too long. Now everyone is pissing and moaning that he yanked PR too soon. Something that seems to be alluding everyone is that Gibbs has been watching PR now for months. We've seen very little of PR's play so far. Gibbs has seen a ton. Who is in the better position to know if this was the right decision?

[TODD]

Thank you. The coach has to make decisions that best afford the team an opportunity to win. Brunell moves around the pocket better, sees the field better, and beats the blitz better than Ramsey ever has. Brunell gives us the best chance to beat Dallas' blitzing defense. That is incredibly clear. With our defense and running game, we simply need someone to manage the game at QB and avoid critical mistakes; and that is something Ramsey has never done and that Brunell excels at.

If there is anyone you should be upset at, it is Ramsey. We used a 1st round pick on a guy that is still making rookie mistakes in his 4th year.

I don't care, the man can do all the mental stuff he wants. But he can't throw the damn ball worth a ssssssssshhhhhhh. He can't. He's not going to make any big throws downfield. He's not going to take risks that would otherwise lead to big plays. And he sure as hell isn't going to be able to lead a last minute drive.

QBs can be as smart as they come. But if they can't sling it, they can't play. And Mark Brunell is not even close.

He doesn't bring us production. He won't exactly lose you a game, but he won't win you ANY. Any, any, any.

We are absolutely right back where we were last year. And it's a freak shame.

[NastyBoy]

Exactly LiveStrong, it IS about the attempts. It's also about what plays were asked of him to be executed.

The play calling can't be held against him.

Oh yeah, folks like to talk about the underthrown pass. So freakin what? It was a bad throw. Ramsey's never done that? Please, give me a break.

As for the INT called back by interference, it was actually a damn good throw. Moss' jersey was off his freakin shoulderpad for cripes sake.

I find it amazing how folks can take a factual event, and spin it to suit whatever argument they're trying to make. If Ramsey had thrown that ball, I for one wouldn't have been calling for his head on a platter. The int. happened for an obvious reason, yet the Brunnel haters love to bring that one up.

Incredible

[G-Prime]

I understand how you could be upset. Ramsey is a great guy and the quick hook can be debated until we turn blue. This isnt directed at you, but I am just so surprised at how so many people can flame Gibbs and even more surprised that people can flame Brunell for the decision. He supported Ramsey and didnt make a big funk about anything. He never once used his injuries as an excuse for last year and took the beatings from the press like a true pro.Nor did he make the decision to start himself. For people to start with the Boonell crap and hope he fails is just wrong in every sense of the word.

I'm a skins fan, I'll support whatever QB is in there.. Yeah I'm guilty of flinging the 70 yards in 3 quarters stat around, but I really have no problem with Brunell, I have a problem with the what Gibbs said and didn't do.

If we knew nothing about PR or Brunell before Sunday's game, were asked to choose based on Sunday's game, 95% of us would choose Ramsey.

[Ernie5]

I'm sorry: I'm not clear on how Gibbs lied to Ramsey. It seems to me that Ramsey was given every opportunity to keep the starting job. Every doubt was resolved in his favor -- even after he was outperformed by Brunell. What else was promised? I like Ramsey & don't know if this is the right choice or not, but it's not like Gibbs nearly decapitated Ramsey or did anything to him; every player knows that the competition never ends. Period. Did him really really wrong? I think Gibbs has been quite accomodating to Ramsey, who -- while showing flashes of excellence -- has done a lot of the types of things that make coaches like Gibbs lose sleep.

[TODD]

Gibbs said Ramsey would start and he did. He never said he'd keep starting him if his play didn't warrant it. Gibbs did exactly what he said he would do. I believe Gibbs would have liked to have made this decision sooner. But, he stuck by his word and started PR.

That's ridiculous. You call one quarter sufficient starting time? Give me a break. You don't judge a performance by a quarter. You judge it by a game. And you don't bench a player for a bad quarter. You bench him for a bad STRING of games. Patrick Ramsey did not get a 1/50th of the chance he should have gotten and that shows poor integrity by the coach.

Gibbs wanted this all along, and he went about it in a way that was deceitful toward Patrick and deceitful to the fans.

[TODD]

I'm sorry: I'm not clear on how Gibbs lied to Ramsey. It seems to me that Ramsey was given every opportunity to keep the starting job. Every doubt was resolved in his favor -- even after he was outperformed by Brunell. What else was promised? I like Ramsey & don't know if this is the right choice or not, but it's not like Gibbs nearly decapitated Ramsey or did anything to him; every player knows that the competition never ends. Period. Did him really really wrong? I think Gibbs has been quite accomodating to Ramsey, who -- while showing flashes of excellence -- has done a lot of the types of things that make coaches like Gibbs lose sleep.

Again, how can one quarter (3 drives) be construed as "every opportunity". Please explain that to me. Please.

[barefoot]

Okay........let's visit another position..........say kickoff and punt returner (Antonio Brown). I think in his short stint he has put us in far worse situations than PR and I do not see him getting pulled.

Betts replaced him on the next kick, Brown did return late in the game. Believe me, if he keeps it up he'll be gone, not benched, gone,

[LiveStrongSkins]

Okay........let's visit another position..........say kickoff and punt returner (Antonio Brown). I think in his short stint he has put us in far worse situations than PR and I do not see him getting pulled.

I look at it like this..........if the Redskins released Boonell today, would anyone pick him up. I'm guessing maybe, but it would be backup role only. Even in Chicago, Miami, or Arizona he would only be a backup. I do not even know if he would be picked up.

Keep going bro, the posts just get dumber as you keep posting. Comparing a KR to the QB position shows your brilliance. One fumble on kick return in one game does not compare to numerous fumbles and interceptions. Many of which have come in the Red Zone in big games.

[LiveStrongSkins]

Again, how can one quarter (3 drives) be construed as "every opportunity". Please explain that to me. Please.

All the OTA's, Camp, preseason games mean nothing? The fact he was entrenched as the starter and came into this game making the same dumb mistakes that have defined him his whole career mean nothing either right?

[NastyBoy]

I'm a skins fan, I'll support whatever QB is in there.. Yeah I'm guilty of flinging the 70 yards in 3 quarters stat around, but I really have no problem with Brunell, I have a problem with the what Gibbs said and didn't do.

If we knew nothing about PR or Brunell before Sunday's game, were asked to choose based on Sunday's game, 95% of us would choose Ramsey.

I understand where you're coming from Gothimus, but that again is an emotional reaction.

I think it's safe to say that Ramsey is a kid that's hard not to like. BUT, if you're being honest, and you watched with a keen eye what the pre-season was like........and in your own words, if noone knew a thing about either Ramsey or Brunnel, there's no way on God's green earth that 95% would say Ramsey was the better option. No freakin way at all.

[alli]

Maybe so, I don't mind that.. But you ask a guy like Patrick to be loyal to a team, and you have to admit, PR has been loyal to the skins maybe to a fault. Now it's time for his coach to return the favor and Gibbs takes back his word and turns his back on him..

Classy

Lets talk about loyalty for a moment and let me start by saying I agree with you I think PR has been loyal to the club when when a lot of guys would have bolted by now. But let me ask you this where does your loyalty lie is it with the Player or the team. Because what I´m sick of is reading all these post saying that Coach Gibbs lied to Ramsey, which is totally untrue. He said that Patrick would be the starter and he started. Thats it! plain and simple. Patrick on the other hand has not shown any evidence that he can run this offense the way Gibbs wants it to be run, and thats mistake free or as close as possible. Now I personally think Patrick is a more exciting player than Brunell but is he a better system fit for Gibbs? I´ll leave that one for the coach to decide on.

[Ernie5]

Again, how can one quarter (3 drives) be construed as "every opportunity". Please explain that to me. Please.

He was given four pre-season game starts and a little over one quarter when he was hurt. Brunell came in & managed to move the team better than Ramsey and -- more importantly -- display the kind of pocket awareness Ramsey hasn't yet. Given the fact that the Skins has a strong running game, strong defense & good O-line, mistakes from the QB position tend to stand out.

I'm not saying it was the right decision or the wrong decision, but this notion that Ramsey was LIED TO is just inane. He started, he got hurt & Brunell had three scoring drives to Ramsey's none, so Gibbs made the switch. It isn't anymore loaded than that.

[NastyBoy]

All the OTA's, Camp, preseason games mean nothing? The fact he was entrenched as the starter and came into this game making the same dumb mistakes that have defined him his whole career mean nothing either right?

Dude, you're on a roll today!

[ST21]

Livestrong who said anything about comparing the two positions. I am just saying that if you are going to have a short lease at the QB position you should do it at evey position. By no means am I comparing the two.

[Ernie5]

A short lease?