My .02 on 'racism' and Kanye

[Thinking Skins]

Why do people address this issue as a in and out group? If I asked a classroom to define racism, I would get dozens of different answers. And thats just a classroom. Imagine how many different definitions of the word there are in the whole world.

I say this because everyone's perception of racism is not the same. There are several things that you may look at ans say, "That dude was racist", and I could come up with a rational explination for his actions. A key example is going to a resteraunt and getting served. Some will say that if it takes 30 mins before they take your order, then they're racist. But what if they're not. What if they're just busy, or understaffed. Or the person they have waiting your table is not a good employee (being slow to your order, possibly because of his own status of being tired).

Its easy for me to say that 'if A is true and A -> B then by the principal of Modus Potus we have B is true.' But what is the A that must be true for me to claim the B which says that 'he is a racist'?

Different people will define this 'A' in different ways based on how they grew up and how they were taught. Nobody knows for sure what another person feels. Thats a matter for God to work out. But as individuals, we form our own opinions about people based on how we percieve the actions of that person.

Consider the much more common attack of "you're stupid". A friend may say this to you based on an event you just did, or a sequence of events that didn't look smart, or for a number of other reasons. But at the same time, you, the one your friend thinks of as stupid, may have just got promoted at work, or graduated college, or gotten a business loan. Obviously somebody doesn't think you're stupid.

If your boss, who just promoted you, and your friend were to get into a conversation related to you being stupid, two different points of view would be present, both with what, in their mind, are valid reasons for calling (or not calling) you stupid.

The conversation about stupidity is a quite common one. There have been a few on Extremeskins after I said some bad things about Marino and Monk. The conversation about racism, however, is not as common today. A lot of times this word can be described based on individual experiences or stories told from ones parents or grandparents that leave a marked impression in that person's mind.

That impression is so marked that if you try to say they're wrong, then it normally gets emotional and possibly offensive.

Its hard to 'just define' that word using only words, and without experiences.

Kanye said his comments about Bush, and I'm sure that in his mind he has reasons to back that up. Since we're not Kanye, it should be possible to have that discussion about these reasons that Kanye spoke of without attacking the man's character or his line of work. Its nothing wrong with bringing them into the conversation, but a smart man shouldn't need to resort to name calling to get the ooh's and aah's of the people reading.

[boobiemiles]

I agree with what you said. The concept of racism is different for everyone. If we could have a healthy conversation about racism, then maybe we could correct people's preception that the comments made by Kanye is in light of racism, not for the sake of it.

[Spaceman Spiff]

He can say whatever he wants. He has a right to how he feels.

I think people just have an issue of how it was done. It wasn't the time or the place. Some people can't comprehend that concept.

[airborneskins]

If Kanye doesn't like the President.. Fine.. Who cares. However, when you are trying to raise money for a tragedy, it is not your time to put your political stance into it. I also thought it was BS for him to say that they have the right to shoot "us". Hello, last time I checked he wasn't in NO, and he sure as heck wasn't trying to rescue the people and being shot at. Kanye made a stupid move on TV last night, It is a shame. I don't listen to his music, but I hope that it is better than his public speaking ability. :2cents:

[Ignatius J.]

I think that the comments were unfair at worst and unhelpful at best.

but you can't deny the racial overtones to this disaster. The people who are stuck in new orleans are poor and mostly black. You have people like this:

http://www.extremeskins.com/forums/showthread.php?t=112060

who were stuck in new orleans who felt that since they were white and affluent that they should be treated better and responded to. It's an implicit racism that I don't even blame the couple for. The fact is that expected to be treated differently because they always have been treated differently.

Most white people got out of new orleans. They had places they could go and ways to get there. I'm not sure it makes sense to blame anyone for this, but I must say these images cannot be helping race relations in this country.

[Thinking Skins]

Tell me something, If I had a mission to tell the world about how crappy of a team the Cowboys were, then how much of an effect would if have for me to come here and write about the illegal activities of the Cowboys?

I wouldn't be changing any minds because we all are feeling that the Cowboys suck.

Well, many of the people who listen to Kanye's music agree with his statement. So him merely saying this in a song would have a similar effect to the aforementioned example.

In order to get his point across and to a different set of people, Kanye needed a different medium. This is where the fund raiser comes in. He was able to present his point to America on a stage where he knew he would get a lot of attention.

Obviously, those in charge of the fund raiser had not planned for this and were not pleased with this. But if he were to try to be nice and find a way to deliver this message, most of America would have ignored him, just as most of America did not know who he was before this, although he has tried other means to get messages to America (for example, his music and his radio/tv interviews).

Whether you agree or not is not the issue. The issue is that the man states some problems concerning how the hurricane was handled, which need to be addressed.

And if you don't agree with Kanye, maybe you should read what Newt Gingrich had to say about Bush and go from there.

(The messenger doesn't matter. It's the MESSAGE we should be focused on).

"Gingrich says the pace of the federal disaster response puts into question Homeland Security and Northern Command planning over the last four years. He rhetorically asks why the government believes it's prepared for a nuclear or biological attack when it can't respond to an event that was predicted days in advance."

http://www.wtvm.com/Global/story.asp?S=3801660

I mean Newt Gingritch said that Bush didn't respond in time.

[twa]

Ignatious

I think you are mixing poor with race,we ALL know anyone with money is treated better...simply a fact of life.

I live just outside of Houston and the only complaints I have heard so far about all the people being brought in has been from the black community.

As far as the story you linked, those people thought they should have been a better response for everyone from what I read,same tune you heard from everyone else....or did I miss something?

[NavyDave]

Funny how its going to be whites like bush that is going to spend their money and taxpayer money to rebuild and help put those poor blacks back into their comfortable poor black ghettoes.

Some how american born blacks in the south unlike illegals with a dream are so stupid that they can not function in life without somebody giving them a handout. I'm talking about prior to the hurricane.

This is the perception I am seeing and what kanye is sniveling about.

I still cant get over how an asian immigrant neighbor of mine within 6 years can now speak english and has two restaraunts and he was poor but his friends and family pulled together.

As I said before I dont buy it.

Being that dam poor is a mental condition.

There are too many opportunities out there you can take advantage of. The environment of entitlements have to come to an end.

If you are so poor that you can figure out how to upgrade your situation its not whitey's fault and is not us "out of touch black's" fault either.

If you are dirt poor and now as a refugee have been relocated to houston, tennessee, florida, or DC what reason can you give to return to the dirt poor status of new orleans instead of getting job training where you are and startng a new life there?

The government is not supposed to take care of your every need and people somehow want to ignore that.

[Thinking Skins]

Ignatious

I think you are mixing poor with race,we ALL know anyone with money is treated better...simply a fact of life.

Very true. And many of those who stayed behind did so because they couldn't afford to leave, or simply left too late and got caught in traffic.

But tell me, If Kanye had said George Bush doesn't like the poor, then would it have made his statement better? If its true, then does it make Bush better?

Ignatious

As far as the story you linked, those people thought they should have been a better response for everyone from what I read,same tune you heard from everyone else....or did I miss something?

I think Kanye feels the same way. But he talks about many things that Bush himself could have done because Bush is the guy in charge of these departments.

Bush made the comment that he couldn't send troops sooner because the Governor of LA didn't request them.

That's not a satisfying statement because there were several reports from the Governor of LA and the Mayor of NO in particular talking about how much help they needed, particular the Mayor saying 'we need everything!'

They say that generators and food and water were sent back to DC

The governor of LA was on Larry King live with the Governor of MS when King asked the GOvernor of MS if Bush should come look at the damage, and the Gov of MS said no. The Gov of LA got pretty upset, and took the tone that he doesn't need to visit MS, but he needs to get here ASAP. That was one day after the hurricane, and it seemed the pictures just got worse and worse while we waited for help to get there.

You get a real sour taste in your mouth when you think about how fast the US responds to disasters outside the US. The Tsunami relief was immediate; Same for the Iraq 'relief'.

In the post 9-11 days, or even hours we had people step forward and take charge to make sure that things were done. When Bush was expected to take charge, he froze like a deer in headlights asking "can I go now." And thats the behavior that either makes one question his leadership skills and ability to be president, or his overall ranking of the importance of this issue.

Kanye chose to question the later, and consequentially said what he said. I don't think he's trying to play a blame game, but somebody's got to be held accountable. And just as Bush held the people under him accountable for not doing stuff, Kanye is saying that Bush should be held accountable for not doing what he is supposed to as President.

[Thinking Skins]

Funny how its going to be whites like bush that is going to spend their money and taxpayer money to rebuild and help put those poor blacks back into their comfortable poor black ghettoes.

Some how american born blacks in the south unlike illegals with a dream are so stupid that they can not function in life without somebody giving them a handout. I'm talking about prior to the hurricane.

This is the perception I am seeing and what kanye is sniveling about.

I still cant get over how an asian immigrant neighbor of mine within 6 years can now speak english and has two restaraunts and he was poor but his friends and family pulled together.

As I said before I dont buy it.

Being that dam poor is a mental condition.

There are too many opportunities out there you can take advantage of. The environment of entitlements have to come to an end.

If you are so poor that you can figure out how to upgrade your situation its not whitey's fault and is not us "out of touch black's" fault either.

If you are dirt poor and now as a refugee have been relocated to houston, tennessee, florida, or DC what reason can you give to return to the dirt poor status of new orleans instead of getting job training where you are and startng a new life there?

The government is not supposed to take care of your every need and people somehow want to ignore that.

What you're touching on is a much deeper discussion than the one I'm bringing up here. I fear getting into this discussion because I know some who read this board may choose to get emotional, and at least in my eyes, the board would lose its feel of the perfect message board.

[twa]

"

But tell me, If Kanye had said George Bush doesn't like the poor, then would it have made his statement better? If its true, then does it make Bush better?

"

But Kayne's statement would be assine either way and the wrong forum.

But you are free to believe as you wish.

[Thinking Skins]

"

But tell me, If Kanye had said George Bush doesn't like the poor, then would it have made his statement better? If its true, then does it make Bush better?

"

But Kayne's statement would be assine either way and the wrong forum.

But you are free to believe as you wish.

Thats not the part of his statement I'm focusing on. That's Kanye's conclusion, that he states based on a bunch of 'facts'.

Are you questioning his facts? Cause if you're not questioning his facts, then it means that you're questioning how he defines 'doesn't like blacks'. But how do you define that? Thats an individual decision based on how he sees the world, and if you listen to his music, you'll see that these are not the only things that have weighed in on this opinion on Bush. However, he felt that these 'facts' were so powerful that he had a valid argument.

I'll give you that its the wrong forum, but I explained why.

I'm focusing on

[DeaconBlue]

The problem I see, that is if I understand your arguement correctly, is that you seem to indicate that the determination as to whether racism and/or a racist act has occured falls purely to the perceptions or stated perceptions of the offended individual(s). Boiled downed to its basic essence that seems to translate to "You are racist as long as I say so." Maybe I'm reading that wrong. If I have that right though then that is completely unacceptable. If there is not some at least generally agreed apon definition and/or guideline then how is one to defend ones self against accusation? Or is guilt automatic?

As far as Kanye is concerned. If you are not going to discuss the messenger and/or the appropriateness of comments in the context of the situation he made them in then you have no debate or discussion at all. Kanye is of course welcome to his opinions no matter how wrong headed I believe him to be. The only real debate here is of course the choice he made to air his grievences during an event for hurricaine katrina relief. If I'm wrong enlighten me.

[Fergasun]

I was thinking about this... if a black person does well in High School, goes to a good business school, and then gets a good job... what do other black people call him?

My perception (whether this represents reality) is that he's labelled an "Uncle Tom" (see Powell, Colin).

How come most street violence is black on black violence?

One of my co-workers always says, when you point a finger at someone, you've got three more coming back your way.

[Guest sith lord]

I was thinking about this... if a black person does well in High School, goes to a good business school, and then gets a good job... what do other black people call him?

My perception (whether this represents reality) is that he's labelled an "Uncle Tom" (see Powell, Colin).

How come most street violence is black on black violence?

One of my co-workers always says, when you point a finger at someone, you've got three more coming back your way.

I'm black and it sickens me when my fellow blacks talk down on another blacks success. The ones that do this are idiots. It all comes from the hip-hop culture where street cred is all that matters.

[Thinking Skins]

The problem I see, that is if I understand your arguement correctly, is that you seem to indicate that the determination as to whether racism and/or a racist act has occured falls purely to the perceptions or stated perceptions of the offended individual(s). Boiled downed to its basic essence that seems to translate to "You are racist as long as I say so." Maybe I'm reading that wrong. If I have that right though then that is completely unacceptable. If there is not some at least generally agreed apon definition and/or guideline then how is one to defend ones self against accusation? Or is guilt automatic?

As far as Kanye is concerned. If you are not going to discuss the messenger and/or the appropriateness of comments in the context of the situation he made them in then you have no debate or discussion at all. Kanye is of course welcome to his opinions no matter how wrong headed I believe him to be. The only real debate here is of course the choice he made to air his grievences during an event for hurricaine katrina relief. If I'm wrong enlighten me.

Isn't this what we do with everything?

When I say that McDonalds is a 'bad' resteraunt. I'm basing that on my experiences at McDonalds, and my preferences for food, which they do not meet.

When I say its a bad resteraunt because their burgers are too skinny, and you say that you don't eat burgers, but you love the fries at McDonalds, then my criticism of McDonalds shouldn't effect your judgement. But when I say its a bad resteraunt because their food is the most unhealthy amongst the major fast food chains, then that may change your mind some.

What matters isn't that I call McDonalds a 'bad' resteraunt. Thats just the conclusion. Thats why I don't just say its a bad resteraunt. I say its a bad resteraunt BECAUSE. Then by stating my reasons I'm giving you a small look at how I'm defining the word 'bad'.

If I'm talking to you, and I know how you define a 'bad' resteraunt, then I can see how that fits with my definition and see if its worth getting into an argument with you about.

Most of the problem with these discussions are over things, like me believing that counting starts with zero, and you believing that counting starts with one. Neither one of us tells the other what we believe. And so we get into an argument because we're trying to convince each other that zero equals one.

Definitions are the most important part of a discussion.

[Thinking Skins]

I was thinking about this... if a black person does well in High School, goes to a good business school, and then gets a good job... what do other black people call him?

My perception (whether this represents reality) is that he's labelled an "Uncle Tom" (see Powell, Colin).

How come most street violence is black on black violence?

One of my co-workers always says, when you point a finger at someone, you've got three more coming back your way.

Tell me, how did American people react when President Bush was elected?

That was supposed to be a rhetorical question, because some were really happy, some were really upset, some were jealous, some were envious, and there were several other emotions along the realm of human emotion.

The same is true about a Black who does well. Many people will feel many differeny emotions about this person. And these emotions will be based on many different things, almost certainly the character of that person who is doing well.

Those who think negatively about this person doing well will call him many different things. But the term 'successful' is the one that comes to mind most often.

[chomerics]

I'm black and it sickens me when my fellow blacks talk down on another blacks success. The ones that do this are idiots. It all comes from the hip-hop culture where street cred is all that matters.

Don't let Sarge read this

[chomerics]

Isn't this what we do with everything?

When I say that McDonalds is a 'bad' resteraunt. I'm basing that on my experiences at McDonalds, and my preferences for food, which they do not meet.

When I say its a bad resteraunt because their burgers are too skinny, and you say that you don't eat burgers, but you love the fries at McDonalds, then my criticism of McDonalds shouldn't effect your judgement. But when I say its a bad resteraunt because their food is the most unhealthy amongst the major fast food chains, then that may change your mind some.

What matters isn't that I call McDonalds a 'bad' resteraunt. Thats just the conclusion. Thats why I don't just say its a bad resteraunt. I say its a bad resteraunt BECAUSE. Then by stating my reasons I'm giving you a small look at how I'm defining the word 'bad'.

If I'm talking to you, and I know how you define a 'bad' resteraunt, then I can see how that fits with my definition and see if its worth getting into an argument with you about.

Most of the problem with these discussions are over things, like me believing that counting starts with zero, and you believing that counting starts with one. Neither one of us tells the other what we believe. And so we get into an argument because we're trying to convince each other that zero equals one.

Definitions are the most important part of a discussion.

So true great post.