Roy Williams will start for the Cowboys

[OrangeSkin]

The fact remains that no matter how good a safety may be, it is not an important defensive position. It may appear to be so, because of all the responsibilities, but if this is the fact, then why didn't we shell out big bucks for Rod Woodson at safety? Having David Terrell start is akin to having Rashad Bauman starting at corner or Del Cowsette starting at DE.

If safety is so important, we should see more of them taken in the top 10.

[bulldog]

this is all so amusing, really :laugh:

some observations:

1. there are no statistics to back up or other indicators to suggest that Quincy Carter is going to play more effectively in the Cowboys offense in 2002 than Shane Matthews will in Washington. Some will point to age and say that at 23, Carter HAS to improve. But why is that? A lot of qb's don't make the jump to established starter in the NFL. Like Batch or Andre Ware or Gus Frerotte, some qb's merely slide sideways through a 5 or 6 year career being a backup. Matthews? Hey, nobody is saying he is going to challenge Jeff Garcia for the NFC lead in passer efficiency. But the thoughts I have seen here from some that indicate he can't throw a forward pass are a bit overdone :laugh:

let's remember that Danny Kanell and Rodney Peete both won division titles in the NFC East in the past 6 years as starting quarterbacks. :cool:

2. I am learning here for the first time that former Cowboys high picks like Carter, Ekuban and this year's Williams evidently have all this latent talent that is about to burst onto the scene as they mature and make the Cowboys a much better team while the Redskins #1 pick Rod Gardner (#15 overall) from last year and other youngsters are somehow flawed or merely average and can't be counted on to improve their team much in 2002 or beyond :laugh:

Dang, I was counting on SOME improvement from the boys at least

3. I am also learning anew that Joey Galloway and Rocket Ismail, with nary a pro bowl vote on their resumes (Ismail has one I believe at WR), and in Galloway's case not much in production to show since '98, are somehow going to form a Cris Carter/Randy Moss type duo that will challenge and overcomes the likes of Bailey/Smoot and Vincent/Taylor in their NFC East matchups. :laugh:

See, I was of the impression that Ismail at 32 and Galloway at 31 were a bit past their primes and could not necessarily be counted on to play 16 games because of their recent history of injuries that have kept them off the field for stretches of time. Well, stand me on MY ear why don't you?

4. Jerry Jones has not been a maestro as GM over the past several years as some have indicated. Sorry to have to inform you of this fact. Yes, he had some dead cap issues to deal with as players from the glory days retired, but he exacerbated those problems with additional financial/personnel blunders.

He gave up two #1 picks and a $11 million bonus to acquire a 29 year old wide receiver in the hopes of reviving the career of a 34 year old quarterback who finished two straight seasons with knockout concussions. That set the team back 2 or 3 years on account of the missed draft choices (which turned out to be top 20) and the cap dollars taken up by Galloway.

TELL ME YOU WOULDN'T TRADE GALLOWAY BACK TO SEATTLE FOR KOREN ROBINSON (#7) AND SHAUN ALEXANDER (#19) NOW

If you go back and look at his picks before 2002 you see a lot of mild disappointments and even outright busts among the higher selections. He used the 2000 draft to try and assemble a backfield and of the three picks used to take corners the first two selected, Dwayne Goodrich and Kareem Larrimore, are already out of the picture at CB, barely two years later. Only Mario Edwards, the #6 pick, remains.

Those 5-11 seasons didn't produce any McNabbs, Arringtons, Samuels, or Strahans did they?

And that lack of taking advantage of the poor seasons to build up with top talent is why Dallas' rise will be slower and more labored than many of the fans there would like to believe.

4.

[Qcard]

Originally posted by Bufford

Jones wanted Williams if he couldn't get Jammer. That's what we're saying. What if his trade attempts worked? would he of taken Williams at #3 or #4? Nope, he was trying to trade up because he wanted Q.

I doubt it. Jerry Jones was contacted by Matt Millen GM with the Detroit Lions about Dallas's interest in trading spots. If Jerry wanted Jammer the opportunity was there.

Once agin go back to the Peter King video link and you will see that Detroit contacted Dallas. Jerry dream scenario was trade down either get Williams or Buchanon, acquire more picks and try to get above the Giants to get Shockey.

Anything else is speculation that can not be substantited.

[Atlanta Skins Fan]

Originally posted by OrangeSkin

The fact remains that no matter how good a safety may be, it is not an important defensive position. It may appear to be so, because of all the responsibilities, but if this is the fact, then why didn't we shell out big bucks for Rod Woodson at safety? Having David Terrell start is akin to having Rashad Bauman starting at corner or Del Cowsette starting at DE.

If safety is so important, we should see more of them taken in the top 10.

You didn't really read what I was saying. Almost all safeties at all levels of the game are merely adequate, or marginally better. They don't have the skills to change the game by themselves.

I played backup free safety in high school, in addition to starting flanker and backup RB. I was a terrible safety, and I always knew why. A superior safety needs incredible instincts from the snap of the ball, because the only chance to be a factor in the play is by making the right immediate read and the right first step. Then you need incredible speed to close on where the play is going -- left, right, up, back. Finally you need punishing hitting power, because unlike a CB you're not running step for step with the receiver (or RB or TE) -- your only chance is to deliver such a punishing hit that the receiver drops the ball during the catch or fumbles after the catch. I didn't have any of these qualities.

I think every other position on the field except QB is easier mentally. RB and flanker were almost entirely physical. I always wanted to play CB, because it relied on linear speed and shadowing ability, qualities I actually had. At safety I was a waste.

The same demands at high school safety extend all the way to NFL safeties -- the safeties might be better, but so is the offense, so the safeties are at the same disadvantage. They don't seem to make much of an impact on the game, because they're not good enough to do so.

A truly dominating safety with the qualities I described can dominate a defense in the same way that a great QB can dominate an offense. No matter what the offense does, the once-in-a-generation safety is right on the ball, breaking up catches, creating fumbles, punishing players until they are afraid to do their jobs.

You don't see safeties drafted in the top 10 because safeties generally aren't that good. Roy Williams could be that good, which is why I would have taken him over anyone in the draft.

[Art]

Q, you wrote:

"Well the "dope" has provided articles and video link to support his stance, whilst ART as usual has presented his smARTness aka Homerism and hypothetical situations. The fact is all the evidence presented point towards the fact that Dallas had Roy Williams as their No.1 pick regardless of whether Quentin Jammer was available. Keep up the speculation, which is normally tainted by your Homerism."

Utterly untrue. The facts don't point at all to the Cowboys having Williams as their pick. The facts point to the Cowboys deciding on Williams when they were on the clock, which is precisely what your link showed. And when they were on the clock, Williams was the pick because Jammer wasn't available. Are you really misunderstanding the link you provided, or is this yet another link which completely invalidates your point of view yet you earnestly believe it's helpful?

The video link clearly explains the "dream" Cowboy scenario as having Harrington fall so they could trade with Cincy and get EITHER Williams or Buchanan as well as Shockey. You heard this on the link you provided, didn't you? The Cowboys wanted to trade down for either Williams OR Buchanan and I take it you don't suggest Buchanan would have been the pick if both he and Jammer were available, right? Of course you don't. This means the "dream" scenario already factored in the selections of Jammer, and Peppers, and Carr, and others, and was dealing with likely available people at their spot and later, should trading down be possible.

"Once again highlighted is your opinion, which you can not substantitate with any facts. The facts are Dallas wanted to trade down to get Roy Williams and get extra picks inorder to make a move for Shockey. Peter King did not QUALIFY the trade with Jammer being gone. You did smARTness.

As stated, the Cowboys "dream" scenario required multiple trades and the acquisition of EITHER Williams or Buchanan and Shockey. Once this didn't happen, the link YOU provided stated clearly the Cowboys were going to go with Jammer or Williams, whoever was available. It never speaks to what would happen if BOTH were available. Peter King DID absolutely qualify the trade with Jammer being gone by stating the Cowboys wanted Buchanan OR Williams. The Cowboys wouldn't have wanted Buchanan if Jammer were available. The dream scenario as reported by King was for them to consider Buchanan as well as Williams which PRESUMES that either the Cowboys wanted Buchanan more than Jammer OR that Jammer wouldn't be available. And, since King later explains the Cowboys, if they stood pat, wanted Williams OR Jammer, that qualifies his statements on their dream scenario to account for Jammer already being gone.

Now, I'm pleased you recognize my name is contained within the word SMART, but, focusing so on the differences in our capabilities in discussion here doesn't really help you, does it?

"Highlighted once again is your opinion. Of course the common knowledge the league is a corner has more value than a Safety, but Roy Williams is not your average collegiate safety. Every scouting medium has Roy Williams as the best safety to grace the draft since Eric Turner and arguably since Ronnie Lott. These kind of accoldes or projections by far surpass the value of a 1st Rd. CB. Therefore your common knowledge carries no weight in a conversation where it has been established that Roy Williams had been targeted in a Dream Scenario prior to the draft. "

Q, at what point in this thread did you miss the fact that I called Williams my favorite player in the draft? I don't doubt he's a great safety. But, Jammer was universally viewed as something substantially more than a typical first round value at corner. He was generally seen as a potentially lock down corner on a Cowboy team that has massive weakness at corner and still strength at safety with Woodson. There is absolutely no doubt, even with Williams being my favorite player in the draft and perhaps even Jones' favorite player, that Jammer was the proper and better fit in terms of skill and need for the Cowboys. No one can possibly doubt he'd have been the pick had both been available.

You seem to need to believe the only player the Cowboys wanted was Williams and you can't let your mind wrap around the fact that AFTER the draft teams always tend to express great pleasure in "getting the guy we wanted all along." I know you are part of the flock and easily led and words contrary to the parroted words you are accustomed stun and amaze you.

But, when you can't even back your view up with adequate links you have yourself provided, it strongly limits what you have to say. Don't you agree?

[Dirk Diggler]

Atlanta

All you need to look at is where the big money is locked up. Hint: QB, CB, DE are right at the top. Guess where Safeties, Tight Ends, and Fullbacks are?

[Dirk Diggler]

Art

Cowboy fans are mere sheep -- they will believe anything that Jerry Jones tells them. According to Jones, they got the best player in the entire draft (possible), the best guard in the draft (very debatable), the best wide receiver in the entire draft (:laugh: ) at the end of the second round, and the 3rd best corner (:rotflmao:).

What Cowboy fans fail to understand is that every team got exactly who they wanted in every round by the end of the draft. How could you face your fans if you didn't?

Just because I like to think that Ramsey is on par with Carr and Harrington, doesn't make it so.

[bulldog]

a good to very good defense can be taken up a notch by a truly superior safety, but safeties are not going to MAKE your defense by themselves and that is why teams rarely make a heavy investment in the position.

safeties fall into the same category as guards, fullbacks, punters, tight ends.............

you need players at these positions to compete but you don't need superior players to win.

you usually need better than average players at QB, RB, OT, WR, DE, CB and OLB to contend.

perhaps the safety position hits a raw nerve here as the Redskins have had some of the most overrated and overpaid safeties in the game over the past 10 years:

Consider: Stanley Richard, James Washington, Sam Shade.

All signed to multiyear contracts with a bonus over $1 million and we got ZERO pro bowls and few outstanding performances to show for the investment.

we should have been spending the money up front in our line where unfortunately we had to go with players such as Dexter Nottage, Sterling Palmer, Marc Boutte, Kelvin Kinney and the like throughout the 1990's. :mad:

[Qcard]

The Dream Scenario was trade down down select either Roy Williams or Philip Buchanon, inorder to stock pile picks / ammunition to acquire Shockey ahead of the Giants. The perfect scenario failed when Cincinnati did not want to tradeup for Joey Harrington.

Peter King goes on to qualify Dallas taking Quentin Jammer if

"ALL ELSE FAILS". Well to common folk like myself, it appears that Jerry Jones "dream or perfect scenario" did not include Quentin Jammer.

Selecting Quentin Jammer was qualified if "ALL ELSE FAILS". That does not signify your first option or in this case Dallas's 1st pick.

Agree to disagree here buddy. Funny though you are the only one interpreting the video link as such.

[fansince62]

williams will no doubt be stellar as safeties go.......but if i remember correctly, one of his perceived limitations coming out of the various pre-draft work-outs was speed. big hitter, above average cover guy. we'll see if he has the closing speed........

[@DCGoldPants]

damn dude, those quotes are killers. We can all scroll up or to the last page to see what someone else wrote.

[Art]

Q,

The Redskins dream scenario was probably to trade up for Harrington and to also acquire Stallworth and perhaps even grab John Henderson. It didn't work out.

I'm absolutely certain that Dallas had a dream scenario where the rest of the league was hazy enough to give them enough picks to get Buchanon or Williams as well as Shockey, but, again, the dream scenario ended at pick three when Harrington was taken.

This left Dallas to the safe fall back of Jammer or Williams and when Jammer was taken, it left Dallas safe with Williams. It's all clear. Obviously in the Dallas dream scenario they had already factored in Jammer being gone because Buchanon was the corner mentioned there and you aren't suggesting he was the corner they'd have taken if Jammer was available, are you?

Of course you aren't. The Dallas dream scenario was such that they acquired Shockey AND Williams or Buchanon because Jammer was gone. If the dream scenario failed, as it did very quickly, they would have Jammer or Williams as their pick. Note, please, it didn't say if all else fails they will take Williams or Buchanon. It's not even intrepreting the interview, Q. It's called understanding it.

[Qcard]

Originally posted by Art

Q,

The Redskins dream scenario was probably to trade up for Harrington and to also acquire Stallworth and perhaps even grab John Henderson. It didn't work out.

I'm absolutely certain that Dallas had a dream scenario where the rest of the league was hazy enough to give them enough picks to get Buchanon or Williams as well as Shockey, but, again, the dream scenario ended at pick three when Harrington was taken.

This left Dallas to the safe fall back of Jammer or Williams and when Jammer was taken, it left Dallas safe with Williams. It's all clear. Obviously in the Dallas dream scenario they had already factored in Jammer being gone because Buchanon was the corner mentioned there and you aren't suggesting he was the corner they'd have taken if Jammer was available, are you?

Of course you aren't. The Dallas dream scenario was such that they acquired Shockey AND Williams or Buchanon because Jammer was gone. If the dream scenario failed, as it did very quickly, they would have Jammer or Williams as their pick. Note, please, it didn't say if all else fails they will take Williams or Buchanon. It's not even intrepreting the interview, Q. It's called understanding it.

Well I interpret and understand the video link much better that you did because I know my team better than you do. I also know that Roy Williams was Dallas's consesus No.1 pick prior and during the draft. They also had Jammer and Buchanon rated or grading out the same. Here is the continuation or insert to the CNN/SI article by Peter King:

You have all seen the article that SI published on the internet. This is the insert article that was in SI. It goes in-depth into the debate between coaches, scouts and management over who is better between Jammer and Buchanon.

Corner Market

The Cowboys staff had some heated discussions when deciding how to rank two top-notch cover men, Phillip Buchanon and Quentin Jammer.

On April 9, in the offices of the Dallas Cowboys, 17 of the team’s coaches, scouts and executives gathered to dissect the best cornerbacks in the 2002 draft. This was a vital day because the Cowboys’ position of biggest need was cornerback. Here’s how Dallas analyzed one of those options, 5’97/8”, 186- pound Phillip Buchanon.

Assistant director of college scouting Tom Ciskowski: “Next player, Phillip Buchanon from Miami, Florida; 4.37 on grass; vertical jump 33; hand 7 ¾; arm 29 ¾. Early out junior. [Ciskowski begins reading the rating of Buchanon from those assembled in the room.] Ireland 1.00, [meaning Buchanon is the 10th best player in the draft], Warfield .85 [between 8th and 9th], Ciskowski .60 [sixth], Hess 1.00, [secondary Coach Clancy] Pendergast .80 [eighth]. Jeff, Go ahead.”

National Scout Jeff Ireland: “Fort Myers, Florida. Good Kid. No problems off the field. Very ****y. Gym-rat type. Great body control, burst. Rare balance and foot quickness. Not a sure tackler, but he will assert himself. Very tough for a little guy. High Motor. Quick route recognition and awareness. Does get bounced around by bigger wide receivers, but he’s hard to separate from. As a cover corner, you can match him with the best receiver and he’ll mark him all day long. Can mirror abrupt double moves. The only real weakness is he’s short. He does get out jumped, and he is suspect in run-support. Very sudden as a returner. Excellent ball skills. We’d get a double whammy because of the return skills. This kid is better than [Texas Corner Quentin] Jammer right now, but I still like Jammer better because of the upside. A top 10 player.”

Ciskowski: “ I love this guy. He competes like Michael Irvin and is a better kid. He thinks he’s Deion Sanders. In his mind he’s not 5’10”. His intangibles are so incredible. You hear about the size. You remember when we picked Russell Maryland, they said he lacked this or lacked that? Emmitt was too short, too slow. Michael Irvin was too slow. They were just football players, like this kid. He’s a backoff corner and a press corner, and he can play in the nickle. No doubt he would start for us from Day One. Kevin Smith [a Cowboys first round choice in 1992], who we all know could play, was seven eighths of an inch taller than Buchanon. Here’s seven eighths. [Ciskowski points to the draft board where he has drawn two parallel lines about an inch apart.] The real world for us is Steve Spurrier spreading you out, the Rams spreading you out. We don’t have a corner who can match up with their best receiver.”

[Chairs swivel to the big video screen to watch a tape of Buchanon’s workout in Miami, then his highlight tape. After watching the quickest 20-yard cone shuttle of draft-eligible players, Cowboys owner Jerry Jones says, “that’s Deion Stuff.” After seeing a relentless Buchanon pursuit on a corner blitz, coach Dave Campo says, “That is a great play!” After a punt return for a touchdown, Campo says, “This guy’s a little Deion. What vision.” You can feel the opinion in the room shifting toward Buchanon from the scouts’ favorite, Jammer. Ciskowski pops in another video. More plays by Buchanon, these against Florida, Florida State, and Pitt. Interceptions, passes broken up, wily near interference non-calls that make him look like a four-year pro. “My Concern,” says defensive coordinator Mike Zimmer in the middle of the tape, “is his run-support ability.” That is the only discouraging word heard during the 21-minute video.]

Scout Jim Garrett: “You divorce yourself from reality if you look at both guys [buchanon and Jammer] and don’t think this guy’s better. He’s like a veteran. Buchanon would be my choice, hands down.”

Jones: “ Our grades put him under Jammer. Our exercise before was invalid if we don’t put him under [Oklahoma safety] Roy Williams.”

Zimmer: “All the scouts but you , Tom, have Jammer graded higher [than Buchanon]. My question is this: Is the best safety to out in nine years not as good as the second-best corner in this draft?”

Ciskowski: “Mike, all I’m asking is this: If you had a football person watch tape of both, I bet they’d say Buchanon’s a better player.”

Garrett: “Absolutely.”

Zimmer: “I think I’m a football person.”

Ciskowski: “Don’t get me wrong. I like Jammer. I’d love to have him, but there’s gonna be more training. Buchanon can help us right now. Buchanon will be a better cover guy, Jammer better in run support.”

Garrett: “I think we’ve turned this around. Do we want a run-defending corner or a covering corner? I think you’ve got to go with the covering corner.”

Zimmer: “Well, I think Jammer is a better shutdown corner.”

Campo: “The only thing that puts me with Buchanon is that I know his mentality. He believes he’s as good as Deion Sanders.”

Scout Jim Hess: “I don’t know how you turn down a big [Jammer is 6’1” 200], fast corner who plays his best with no help versus a little corner.”

Ciskowski: “I believe if Buchanon got out on our track, he’d blow Jammer’s doors off.”

Hess: “Maybe so, but Jammer’s still a big, fast corner.”

Campo: “As far as being a shutdown corner, I think Jammer, because of his size, is going to be better.”

Zimmer: “Receivers will tell you that they have to work so much harder against a big, physical player. Am I right, Paul?”

Consultant Paul Warfield: “Jammer would be more intimidating. He gets his hands on you, he’ll disrupt you from getting into the pattern.”

Jones: “Did you know Deion scored a touchdown one out of every seven times he touched the ball? Will we use our shutdown corner to return punts?”

Zimmer: “If it wins games, I’m for it.”

Jones: “Let’s selectively use him, then.”

Ciskowski: “Who sees Buchanon better?” [Ciskowski, Garrett and Warfield raise hands.]

Campo: “I’m right on the fence.”

Garrett: “Give them the same grade.”

Jones: “Anyone have a problem with that?”

Scouting Director Larry Lacewell: “I’ve got an idea. The guys in favor of the guy we pick, if he’s not a player, they get fired.”

Zimmer: “Doesn’t matter. It’s gonna happen to me either way. I’ll tell you what, you can put mine on tape: We pick Jammer and he’s not a player, fire me.”

Jones: ”Zim, you’ve got five years. Because the contract we give him, he’s gonna be here five years. Give them the same grade, but put Buchanon below Jammer.”

[As the group breaks for lunch, Ciskowski sidles up to Jones. “Buchanon’s pretty good, isn’t he?” Ciskowski says. Jones nods. “Better than I thought,” says the man who will make the final call.]

Epilogue: Jammer went to the Chargers with the fifth pick. Buchanon slid to the Raiders at No. 17, after the Cowboys took Williams.

[bulldog]

part of the problem in Dallas, as it has been in Washington, has been the coaches and front office.

while the Redskins have cleaned house in that regard the Cowboys are still going to war with Campo and Jones.

Campo seems overwhelmed at times in trying to organize his team on the offensive side of the ball, and Jones is too egotistical to go out and hire a proven coordinator to work on the staff.

Jones has more than a little of the riverboat gambler in him and his picks in free agency match that tendency.

LaRoi Glover can get after the quarterback, but players in NO say he left everyone else to stop the run, it just wasn't something he felt he was being paid to do.

I don't see a Norman Hand in Dallas to cover for him.

Hardy? Well, a lineup of Hardy, Nguyen and Coakley is still a few leagues under the sea below what the Skins are going to put out there with Armstead, Trotter and Arrington but it isn't bad.

That said, if Glover (undersized as he is) rushes the passer and you have an open lane up the middle to exploit is Dat Nguyen the player you want covering at MLB?

For my money he is too small to be a top middle linebacker in the NFL.

Westbrook? As has been mentioned, Bryant is not a lock to be a starter in Dallas, which perhaps says more about him at age 29 than it does about the depth of the Cowboys.

Dallas missed badly on Goodrich and Larrimore in the draft a couple of years ago and then couldn't convince Phillippi Sparks to come back to the team after he had a good initial campaign with the club as a free agent back in 2000.

It's a good think Williams and Woodson can run at S, because I have the feeling they are going to be covering a lot of ground for Campo this season...............

[smith22]

Originally posted by bulldog

part of the problem in Dallas, as it has been in Washington, has been the coaches and front office.

while the Redskins have cleaned house in that regard the Cowboys are still going to war with Campo and Jones.

Campo seems overwhelmed at times in trying to organize his team on the offensive side of the ball, and Jones is too egotistical to go out and hire a proven coordinator to work on the staff.

Dallas signed B. Coslett this year as OC. He is a proven OC, just a bad head coach.

LaRoi Glover can get after the quarterback, but players in NO say he left everyone else to stop the run, it just wasn't something he felt he was being paid to do.

I don't see a Norman Hand in Dallas to cover for him.

Glover is replacing Myers as the starter. Myers job was to get after the QB. Are you saying we should start Myers over Glover?

Hardy? Well, a lineup of Hardy, Nguyen and Coakley is still a few leagues under the sea below what the Skins are going to put out there with Armstead, Trotter and Arrington but it isn't bad.

The Skins have the edge, but not by as much as you think. Funny hearing a Skins fan talking about protecting LB's. Who exactly will be protecting any of the Skins LB's or who will help them stop the run?

For my money he is too small to be a top middle linebacker in the NFL.

Guess you missed him play last season.

Westbrook? As has been mentioned, Bryant is not a lock to be a starter in Dallas, which perhaps says more about him at age 29 than it does about the depth of the Cowboys.

Let's see, number 4 ranked defense last year with Hawthorne and Edwards at corner. Now we have added Westbrook and Ross (draft) at corner, plus Hardy (LB), Glover (DT) and Williams (S). Yeah, things look real bad for us.

Dallas missed badly on Goodrich and Larrimore in the draft a couple of years ago and then couldn't convince Phillippi Sparks to come back to the team after he had a good initial campaign with the club as a free agent back in 2000.

True. But things look to be turning around, just look at our off-season.

It's a good think Williams and Woodson can run at S, because I have the feeling they are going to be covering a lot of ground for Campo this season...............

Really? Funny, I don't remember it being like that last season.

[Qcard]

Originally posted by bulldog

part of the problem in Dallas, as it has been in Washington, has been the coaches and front office.

while the Redskins have cleaned house in that regard the Cowboys are still going to war with Campo and Jones.

Well based on our 2002 draft it appears that Jerry Jones and Dave Campo have learnt a thing or two about drafting. The consesus around the league is that they arguably had the best draft in the NFL.

As a fan all I can ask for is improvement. Jerry's '94 - '97 and '00 draft selections are border line pathetic. The jury is still out on '01 draft.

Originally posted by bulldog

Campo seems overwhelmed at times in trying to organize his team on the offensive side of the ball, and Jones is too egotistical to go out and hire a proven coordinator to work on the staff.

Dave Campo did have some problems during the season making offensive game day decisions. We hope to see improvement this season. Bruce Coslet is a proven Offensive Co-ordinator. So much for Jones being too egotistical to go out............ . Bruce Coslet Head Coaching tenures have been horrible and very questionable, but like Novre Turner as O/C their skills and production is unquestionable.

Originally posted by bulldog

Jones has more than a little of the riverboat gambler in him and his picks in free agency match that tendency.

Very true, but the same riverboat gambler has 3 Superbowl trophies in the trophy case, Jerry Jones is a Maverick. He does things his way. His ownership the past decade is unrivarled. The Cowboys are the most recognized and marketed NFL team in the league, only the Yankees and 1 year wonders challenge Dallas in the merchandise industry. Call it band wagoning or whatever cliche you want to use. The fact is Dallas has been either 1 or 2 in merchandising even during our rebuilding years.

Originally posted by bulldog

LaRoi Glover can get after the quarterback, but players in NO say he left everyone else to stop the run, it just wasn't something he felt he was being paid to do.

I don't see a Norman Hand in Dallas to cover for him.

Neither do I. But you are on the outside looking in. From my vantage point I see Brandon Noble. He anchored the run defense that improved from last to respectable in 1 year. I see a 2nd year player in John Nix, whom made plays last year (remember Stephen Davis's fumble and numerous goal line stands). I know you have Stubby flash backs when you see Glover, but not all free agent DT are busts. Win some lose some. You guys lost. In my opinion it was a great move at the time. Wilkinson and Stubby on paper in 1998 scared many.

Originally posted by bulldog

Hardy? Well, a lineup of Hardy, Nguyen and Coakley is still a few leagues under the sea below what the Skins are going to put out there with Armstead, Trotter and Arrington but it isn't bad.

That said, if Glover (undersized as he is) rushes the passer and you have an open lane up the middle to exploit is Dat Nguyen the player you want covering at MLB?

For my money he is too small to be a top middle linebacker in the NFL.

So was Zach Thomas. Who said you need a top middle LB in the NFL to have success or win a championship. So long as Dat Nguyen does his job as usual Dallas will be fine.

Originally posted by bulldog

Westbrook? As has been mentioned, Bryant is not a lock to be a starter in Dallas, which perhaps says more about him at age 29 than it does about the depth of the Cowboys.

Dallas missed badly on Goodrich and Larrimore in the draft a couple of years ago and then couldn't convince Phillippi Sparks to come back to the team after he had a good initial campaign with the club as a free agent back in 2000.

It's a good think Williams and Woodson can run at S, because I have the feeling they are going to be covering a lot of ground for Campo this season...............

Where do you get your information. Based on all the news and notes coming from Valley Ranch, Westbrook is progressing very well. Should he play to his potential during training camp he will be a lock to start.

Goodrich is more an injury bust than lacking skills. All rookie CBs struggle and he was further retarded by an achilles injury. This is probably his last training camp with Dallas if he doesn't make it on the team. Hold on the bust tag. Larrimore was a 4th round pick, whom was cut due to off-field problems. Larrimore's play on the field improved with every game, but it was not good enough to overlook the poor work ethic and off-field issues. Only in Dallas do people consider a 4th round pick a bust:notworthy

p.s. You have no idea what happened in the Philipi Sparks situation. Get your facts straight.

[@DCGoldPants]

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by bulldog

part of the problem in Dallas, as it has been in Washington, has been the coaches and front office.

while the Redskins have cleaned house in that regard the Cowboys are still going to war with Campo and Jones.

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Well based on our 2002 draft it appears that Jerry Jones and Dave Campo have learnt a thing or two about drafting. The consesus around the league is that they arguably had the best draft in the NFL.

As a fan all I can ask for is improvement. Jerry's '94 - '97 and '00 draft selections are border line pathetic. The jury is still out on '01 draft.

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Originally posted by bulldog

Campo seems overwhelmed at times in trying to organize his team on the offensive side of the ball, and Jones is too egotistical to go out and hire a proven coordinator to work on the staff.

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Dave Campo did have some problems during the season making offensive game day decisions. We hope to see improvement this season. Bruce Coslet is a proven Offensive Co-ordinator. So much for Jones being too egotistical to go out............ . Bruce Coslet Head Coaching tenures have been horrible and very questionable, but like Novre Turner as O/C their skills and production is unquestionable.

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Originally posted by bulldog

Jones has more than a little of the riverboat gambler in him and his picks in free agency match that tendency.

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Very true, but the same riverboat gambler has 3 Superbowl trophies in the trophy case, Jerry Jones is a Maverick. He does things his way. His ownership the past decade is unrivarled. The Cowboys are the most recognized and marketed NFL team in the league, only the Yankees and 1 year wonders challenge Dallas in the merchandise industry. Call it band wagoning or whatever cliche you want to use. The fact is Dallas has been either 1 or 2 in merchandising even during our rebuilding years.

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Originally posted by bulldog

LaRoi Glover can get after the quarterback, but players in NO say he left everyone else to stop the run, it just wasn't something he felt he was being paid to do.

I don't see a Norman Hand in Dallas to cover for him.

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Neither do I. But you are on the outside looking in. From my vantage point I see Brandon Noble. He anchored the run defense that improved from last to respectable in 1 year. I see a 2nd year player in John Nix, whom made plays last year (remember Stephen Davis's fumble and numerous goal line stands). I know you have Stubby flash backs when you see Glover, but not all free agent DT are busts. Win some lose some. You guys lost. In my opinion it was a great move at the time. Wilkinson and Stubby on paper in 1998 scared many.

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Originally posted by bulldog

Hardy? Well, a lineup of Hardy, Nguyen and Coakley is still a few leagues under the sea below what the Skins are going to put out there with Armstead, Trotter and Arrington but it isn't bad.

That said, if Glover (undersized as he is) rushes the passer and you have an open lane up the middle to exploit is Dat Nguyen the player you want covering at MLB?

For my money he is too small to be a top middle linebacker in the NFL.

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So was Zach Thomas. Who said you need a top middle LB in the NFL to have success or win a championship. So long as Dat Nguyen does his job as usual Dallas will be fine.

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Originally posted by bulldog

Westbrook? As has been mentioned, Bryant is not a lock to be a starter in Dallas, which perhaps says more about him at age 29 than it does about the depth of the Cowboys.

Dallas missed badly on Goodrich and Larrimore in the draft a couple of years ago and then couldn't convince Phillippi Sparks to come back to the team after he had a good initial campaign with the club as a free agent back in 2000.

It's a good think Williams and Woodson can run at S, because I have the feeling they are going to be covering a lot of ground for Campo this season...............

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Where do you get your information. Based on all the news and notes coming from Valley Ranch, Westbrook is progressing very well. Should he play to his potential during training camp he will be a lock to start.

Goodrich is more an injury bust than lacking skills. All rookie CBs struggle and he was further retarded by an achilles injury. This is probably his last training camp with Dallas if he doesn't make it on the team. Hold on the bust tag. Larrimore was a 4th round pick, whom was cut due to off-field problems. Larrimore's play on the field improved with every game, but it was not good enough to overlook the poor work ethic and off-field issues. Only in Dallas do people consider a 4th round pick a bust

p.s. You have no idea what happened in the Philipi Sparks situation. Get your facts straight.

Last edited by Qcard on July-9th-2002 at 07:51 PM[/Quote]

p.s. Norv Turner is a more proven O-coord also and in San Diego with a better QB he couldn't beat anyone except us (ouch)

[OrangeSkin]

Almost all safeties at all levels of the game are merely adequate, or marginally better. They don't have the skills to change the game by themselves.

Doesn't that tell you that the position is not as important as the others on the field? If teams are stockpiling mediocre players at that position, and it still doesn't have a major effect on their defense, then I think that indicates that safety is not a very important position.

Are you saying that safety is so hard to play that none of the players currently in the league can play the position correctly? The NFL is where the greatest football players in the world play. I seriously doubt that they haven't mastered the position yet, and I seriously doubt that Roy Williams will be able to have the impact of a QB, RB, DE, or even OG.

[Atlanta Skins Fan]

Originally posted by OrangeSkin

Are you saying that safety is so hard to play that none of the players currently in the league can play the position correctly? The NFL is where the greatest football players in the world play. I seriously doubt that they haven't mastered the position yet, and I seriously doubt that Roy Williams will be able to have the impact of a QB, RB, DE, or even OG.

There's a difference between playing a position "correctly" and playing a position with maximum possible impact.

Countless NBA players have played guard over the years. Then Michael Jordan arrived and achieved the kind of impact never imagined for guards. As I understand it, prior to Jordan most impact players were forwards and centers.

The analogy isn't precise, but it's suggestive. Few if any positions in the NFL have as much "head room" above current level of play as do safeties. A safety has the potential to be involved in the tackle on *every single play*. This is difficult to imagine, because no player has come close to this kind of impact.

When I played safety, the rule was simple: anticipate the play and close on the ball. I could be *anywhere* on the field -- it's like playing defense by yourself. I completely sucked, but I understood the potential for the position. Obviously NFL defenses are more sophisticated and safeties don't always have that freedom. But the right player with the right skills -- instincts, mobility, speed, hitting ability and hands -- could completely change the game if given the freedom.

[OrangeSkin]

I find it hard to believe that in the 80+ year history of the NFL, that there hasn't been a safety who has been able to play the postion with maximum impact. Williams is certainly a great player, and it remains to be seen whether he will be remembered among the greatest safeties of all time.

There's a time when physical limitations come in and it is virtually impossible to be in the tackle on every single play. To do that you'd have to possess something like 2.9 speed.

There is a lot of potential in the safety position, but I'm afraid only a genetically engineered man/robot would be able to acheive that.

So basically, my point is that taking Roy Williams, although he is a great player, and automatically assuming that he will have a historic impact on the game is quite risky, especially that high.

Other players at different positions who were picked that high turn out to be busts more often that not.

So what makes us think that a rookie safety is going to come in and be literally all over the field?

It's just not going to happen, and I doubt we'll ever see a human being who can play the safety position to it's fullest potential.

[Brave]

Orange ... the safety position is just that. It's not some robot Olympics.

This guy has all the tools and skills to be a special one. That's all anyone is saying. I'd love to have him.

[Utah]

I will try and shed some light on the saftey position.

A saftey is like the Center of the defense. Very few people will know when to blame him and when to give him credit. His impact is almost impossible to judge from a fan standpoint. You have to understand what the DC is trying to accomplish on any given play.

In all honesty, you have to have some pretty good experience in the game to see how much of an impact either player is on the field.

There are 11 men on the field doing 11 different things. The only people who know whether or not a play was done correctly are the guys who show up and watch the films and know what play was called.

Williams has all the tools to be a dominant player. But then again, so did Tony Mandarich (sp). You just won't know until he gets out there and starts popping players in different uniforms. Also, for a rookie, we need to watch him in his last 8 games. He will then be pushed pass any point he has ever played football. Since his game is more mental, it will tell us a lot about his abilities.

And please remember that a DC will always push plays into his stregnths or at least he will call plays to try and force the offense into a situation where his best players are allowed to make the plays. In our case, Lewis would call plays with the Ravens to try and put the ball in an area where Ray Lewis could make plays.

So when you are saying that Safeties have a low impact overall compared to a cornerback, your actually making a very uneducated statement. You need to learn more about the game.

Athletes will always be drafted higher than potential.

[Art]

Utah,

I don't know if the statement was that a safety has a low impact on the game as compared to a cornerback. I think the sentiment was that a safety has a low impact on the game as compared to a lock-down cornerback, of which there are never enough and not many.

Ronnie Lott was unquestionably a great player and had a remarkable impact on every game he played in. But, like him or hate him, Deion Sanders had a far greater impact on the game. Charles Woodson, Champ Bailey and perhaps a handful of others are more valuable than the best safety in football.

But as for being learned on the sport, I can only say that NFL teams themselves have kind of set the tone in terms of the importance of the offensive guard position and the defensive safety position. Few teams have big money in those spots and only when the players are dynamic. Most teams do put a far higher value on a cover corner than a roaming safety of skill.

[Utah]

True Art. Thats why I said that the athlete will always be drafted first. Speed and quickness will always win out. Thats why corners will always be grabbed before safties. It is also why corners who are big enough and smart enough can extend their careers by moving to safety ala Rod Woodson.

However, a safety has a greater impact on defensive schemes then a corner does. His responsibilites are three-fold. He has to be able to play as effective vs the run as he does vs the pass. Lynch, Marion, Schulters, Dawkins and, who I think is the best saftey in the league, Darren Woodson all force offenses to attack at diffent levels during a play based on their position. He also is the play caller for the secondary.

A shut down corner can be a huge problem for a defense. It forces defenses to roll their secondary and linebackers to compensate for the loss of a player. In fact, bringing up Sanders brings up a very key point. Most great cover corners are horrible vs the run. They are an actual liablity to the team. Deion used to say he got tired of teams just running him off and not throwing on him. Well, thats because it was easier to throw on rolled coverage than to throw into man coverage. However, what was the thing that killed Deion his entire career. He was horrible vs crossing patterns and deep middle patterns.

I played corner in College and the secondary is what I coach. I base all my defenses abilities on the safety, not the corner. Its great to have a shutdown corner on pass plays vs a team with only one real good WR. However, I can dictate what an offense will do by whether or not my safety can play the run and pass.

Corners are notorously small. They may be tall, but they generally don't have the weight to allow them to withstand a ton of pounding from bigger WR, TE or even OL that lead block. A safety, in general, will be bigger and can deliver blows instead of accept them.

Money in the NFL will always go to the man who brings the most to the table. Speed is the #1 ingredient in the NFL. Thats where teams will and have always put the money. However, it does not make it the smartest or best move for a team. Its just the demand for speed is far greater then any other physical skill in the secondary.

I would bet that the teams with players like Dawkins, Sharper, Lassiter, Harrison, Lynch, Milloy, Griffith, and Schulters would argue that those players make as big and powerful and impact on a game that Woodson, Bailey, Williams, Madison and Law make at their corner spots.

It all comes down to what a team is trying to accomplish on defense with the front seven they have compared to the 4 or 5 DBs they have on the field.

Also, corner is a high profile spot. Big things happen more often vs them than any other players. They are on an island and they have to keep winning. The nature of the beast.

[@DCGoldPants]

A lot of times a linebacker will be the center of the D because they can do pretty much the same stuff that a safety can.