SirSmizzy Posted July 18, 2005 Share Posted July 18, 2005 Hey guys im new here....Some of you might know me from another skins site...Just wanted to stop in and check this place out. Honest opinions of what you think about this trade,now that some time has passed. Do you think Moss will outproduce Coles? Will moss return kicks for thew Skins this yr? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ATLANTASKINSFAN Posted July 18, 2005 Share Posted July 18, 2005 Originally posted by SirSmizzy Hey guys im new here....Some of you might know me from another skins site...Just wanted to stop in and check this place out. Honest opinions of what you think about this trade,now that some time has passed. Do you think Moss will outproduce Coles? Will moss return kicks for thew Skins this yr? I still believe that Coles is the better receiver. However I think Moss is a better fit for the skins. We really need a deep threat which is something Coles did not turn out to be. So I guess I'd call the trade about even. :logo: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sebowski Posted July 18, 2005 Share Posted July 18, 2005 We killed you guys in this trade attitude-wise. Getting rid of Coles did miracles for the locker room. Production-wise, it all depends on Coles' toe, and our passing attack. I think Moss will return punts in important situations, not regularly. Just speculation on my part there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skins4SB Posted July 18, 2005 Share Posted July 18, 2005 Coles is the better receiver when he has a healthy toe. If he goes out and shows us that we used him wrong, then I guess my previous statement is wrong then. Coles would be the better receiver period. I'm a little worried about Moss' durability. I know he has the speed and I know he can return kicks(Pittsburgh game in last year's playoffs). Only time will tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vman2k6 Posted July 18, 2005 Share Posted July 18, 2005 I bet coles is gonna be a pro-bowl receiver this year, but moss will be a much better fit for the skins offense Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirSmizzy Posted July 18, 2005 Author Share Posted July 18, 2005 Originally posted by Sebowski We killed you guys in this trade attitude-wise. Getting rid of Coles did miracles for the locker room. Production-wise, it all depends on Coles' toe, and our passing attack. I think Moss will return punts in important situations, not regularly. Just speculation on my part there. the 0nly thing about Moss's is he tends to be soft and scared of contact. Let's hope they run him deep all day because if they ask this kid to go in traffic and catch the ball.....you screwed. I do think the skins would be best off running Moss deep and letting Patten pick up those 1st down and make the important catches. I juts don't see Moss doing it. I do think PRamsey should get to start this ys...all 16....yhe kid has talent and he needs a chnace to play a full season to see what he can do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VaSkinsNut Posted July 18, 2005 Share Posted July 18, 2005 Coles and Moss had pretty much the same type of speed game when they both had their best statistical years. Speed and ability to evade tacklers. People talk about how small Moss is...forgetting that there is only a 1 inch difference in size. Moss I believe has the higher vertical jump though. Coles actually ran a faster 40 yard dash time in college but mediots talk about how Moss's speed is gamebreaking as opposed to coles. If both are completely healthy Coles is the more talented player...but here's the situation. Moss gets lots of hamstring injuries, lots of WR's do but Moss seems to get more of them. Coles has never been that great since injuring his toe week 3 his first season here. He can no longer cut at full speed or evade tackles. His decline in YAC shows this. Hamstring injuries heal fine with rest...Coles's toe never did (may never if he keeps playing football). A 100% healthy Santana Moss is a better player than an unhealthy Coles IMO. Here's another reason why the deal was a good idea. Coles's contract numbers agains the cap were set to explode in size agains the cap next season. Somewhere around the 6.5 -7 million dollar a season range. It was better to take the hit now and clear that cap space for when we need it rather than pay someone top 10 reciever money who only puts up the stats of a good #2 wideout. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiveStrongSkins Posted July 18, 2005 Share Posted July 18, 2005 im one of the few who thinks this will be best for both teams. Moss is the home run hitter we need here. The guy who can fly down the sidelines and get us alot of 25 yard interference calls. He will flourish in this offense because ramsey has the perfect arm for throwing the ball deep. Coles on the other hand is a sure-thing possession reciever. He is fast but doesnt have the quick accelleration of moss. He fits in perfectly with pennington. Pennington doesnt have the deep arm but is great at throwing the intermediate routes. Coles is a good intermediate route runner. We got what we need, they got what they need. The only thing that sucks is obviously the cap hit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweet daddy Posted July 18, 2005 Share Posted July 18, 2005 numbers won't tell the whole story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punu Posted July 18, 2005 Share Posted July 18, 2005 wats up sirsmizzy...(hogs) I agree that moss is gonna give us a better attitude in the locker room... which was much needed a lot of times through the year... but on the field, we will just have to see how consistent ramsey is in his passing game... chad is coming off an injury too...So we gotta factor in the qb's as well... remember coles was a great WR but with brunell he was scarce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirSmizzy Posted July 18, 2005 Author Share Posted July 18, 2005 Originally posted by Punu wats up sirsmizzy...(hogs) I agree that moss is gonna give us a better attitude in the locker room... which was much needed a lot of times through the year... but on the field, we will just have to see how consistent ramsey is in his passing game... chad is coming off an injury too...So we gotta factor in the qb's as well... remember coles was a great WR but with brunell he was scarce That's becauese Brunell is washed up. Ill never understand how you guys drafted PRam and never gave him a real shot to prove himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDSKNfaithfull Posted July 18, 2005 Share Posted July 18, 2005 Coles plays a lot bigger than Moss. Moss plays a bit faster than Coles. Time will tell. We may miss that guy that can go over the middle get trucked by M.Lewis,Dawk and Roy and hold on to the ball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hooper Posted July 18, 2005 Share Posted July 18, 2005 Coles was a warrior and will be missed. But I suspect that toe injury really scared the skins if they were so willing to part with him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted July 18, 2005 Share Posted July 18, 2005 Originally posted by SirSmizzy That's becauese Brunell is washed up. Ill never understand how you guys drafted PRam and never gave him a real shot to prove himself. As for this part, it's simply not true we drafted Ramsey and never gave him a real shot to prove himself. He was essentially given the starting job as a rookie and was unable to handle it. He was given the starting job as a second-year player and would have played all year, except he got hurt. Last year he was outplayed by Brunell in camp, at practices and in preseason games and started the year second-string. For the first time as a Redskin, he was forced to win the job and couldn't. He'd been given the chances prior to that without having to earn it. He then came in and played moderately ok, though not very good or even actually good at all. Teams go 6-10 with a QB capable of a 74 QB rating. That's what they do. Now the job is his again to keep or lose. He'll start as long as he doesn't get hurt or spike himself. For the receiver question, like most here, I think the answer is Coles is a better receiver when healthy, but, the Coles who appears to be available now is unlikely to be as good as Moss will be for us this year. It is possible Moss has a really great year and makes the argument possible that he's simply a better receiver than Coles under any circumstances. For now, that's not the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirSmizzy Posted July 18, 2005 Author Share Posted July 18, 2005 Originally posted by Art As for this part, it's simply not true we drafted Ramsey and never gave him a real shot to prove himself. He was essentially given the starting job as a rookie and was unable to handle it. He was given the starting job as a second-year player and would have played all year, except he got hurt. Last year he was outplayed by Brunell in camp, at practices and in preseason games and started the year second-string. For the first time as a Redskin, he was forced to win the job and couldn't. He'd been given the chances prior to that without having to earn it. He then came in and played moderately ok, though not very good or even actually good at all. Teams go 6-10 with a QB capable of a 74 QB rating. That's what they do. Now the job is his again to keep or lose. He'll start as long as he doesn't get hurt or spike himself. For the receiver question, like most here, I think the answer is Coles is a better receiver when healthy, but, the Coles who appears to be available now is unlikely to be as good as Moss will be for us this year. It is possible Moss has a really great year and makes the argument possible that he's simply a better receiver than Coles under any circumstances. For now, that's not the case. His rookie season? Dude...you team was in a bunch of trouble then and he had no shot to do anything. Didn't he get sacked like a billion times that season? Brunell was handed the starting job because of the cointract Snyder gave him. Ramsey didn't get out played he got the shaft. Id like to see him get 1 full yr under this regime and O-line Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hooper Posted July 18, 2005 Share Posted July 18, 2005 No, he got outplayed in preseason. Pretty clearly in fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLSKINSFAN Posted July 18, 2005 Share Posted July 18, 2005 Brunell was handed the starting job because of the cointract Snyder gave him. Ramsey didn't get out played he got the shaft. 100% false. It was a fair competition from the start and Brunell outplayed him, ask anyone. You didn't read the camp reports or watch a single snap of preseason play. If you had, you would know how wrong this comment is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted July 18, 2005 Share Posted July 18, 2005 Originally posted by SirSmizzy His rookie season? Dude...you team was in a bunch of trouble then and he had no shot to do anything. Didn't he get sacked like a billion times that season? Brunell was handed the starting job because of the cointract Snyder gave him. Ramsey didn't get out played he got the shaft. Id like to see him get 1 full yr under this regime and O-line The relative merits of our team when Ramsey was a rookie who reported to camp late is not at all an issue in this discussion. Ramsey reported late and was given the starting job when injury happened, but couldn't hold it, then was given the starting job again when it didn't matter. The season people say he was sacked a lot was two years ago when Ramsey was a second year player. Two things become relevant here. In Spurrier's offense, the QB has the responsibility NOT to take those hits by getting into the right play and making the pass. Ramsey seemed to have some struggle with that at times, but sacks weren't really out of the ordinary that year. Ramsey took some big hits that year among the sacks, but wasn't so much simply sacked a tremendous amount. Brunell was not handed the starting job because of the contract the team gave him. He simply played better than Ramsey in every way by every account, including Ramsey's. This is an indisputable fact. I'm sorry you have built a thought around a false notion. I'm glad we could provide you information you lacked and now you can adjust your thinking accordingly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flexxskins Posted July 18, 2005 Share Posted July 18, 2005 I don't think that Moss had the big arm facter in Pennington that he now has in Ramsey. Moss's quickness and flat out speed was wasted in NY where he did not have a QB with the arm strength to get him the ball with any zip. He now has a QB with a gun, who can make those quick hitting, tight passes or, those long passes down the field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soliloquy Posted July 18, 2005 Share Posted July 18, 2005 Brunell beat out Ramsey in preseason last year, no doubt. If only he had played well, as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon T. Posted July 18, 2005 Share Posted July 18, 2005 I think the key with the trade from the Jets perspective is Coles' health. If he has a miraculous recovery, you've gotten a great WR. If he and Pennington are both still injured, your offense will be about as effective as ours was last year with Brunell. On the upside, the Jets are not on the hook for Coles' signing bonus, even if they later cut him, right? Or did they renegotiate his contract? I agree completely about Ramsey deserving more of a shot last year. The preseason battle was in my estimation nearly even. Brunell stunk in the regular season games. (There is a theory that he injured his leg in the first regular season game and lost his arm strength after that.) At any rate, Gibbs stuck with Brunell way too long! As for losing Moss, the Jets did not throw to him last year, so I think that he matters little from your perspective. I saw quite a few games where Pennington simply would not give him the ball. Carter threw to him more, but did not really look like an NFL QB. If Coles is not healthy this was a wise trade by the Redskins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boobiemiles Posted July 18, 2005 Share Posted July 18, 2005 Originally posted by FLSKINSFAN 100% false. It was a fair competition from the start and Brunell outplayed him, ask anyone. You didn't read the camp reports or watch a single snap of preseason play. If you had, you would know how wrong this comment is. I'm a skins fan, and I have to ask, are you smelling the stuff you're shoveling? How are you going to sit a QB that makes 42 million. Do you really think that Gibbs thought Ramseys would start over Bruhell? I know Joe is no fool. He would never have gave him a 42 million dollar contract if he did. And to top it off we gave him a huge signing bonus. As for Moss i saw some of the highlights from last year. barring injury he'll stretch the field, and that all we need to dictate to the defenses around the league. If you have to play a safety back, then the wholes will ope up for Portis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 Originally posted by boobiemiles I'm a skins fan, and I have to ask, are you smelling the stuff you're shoveling? How are you going to sit a QB that makes 42 million. Do you really think that Gibbs thought Ramseys would start over Bruhell? I know Joe is no fool. He would never have gave him a 42 million dollar contract if he did. And to top it off we gave him a huge signing bonus. As for Moss i saw some of the highlights from last year. barring injury he'll stretch the field, and that all we need to dictate to the defenses around the league. If you have to play a safety back, then the wholes will ope up for Portis. I think the only person who cared about the contract Brunell got was you -- and those like you -- as certainly Gibbs did not. As Gibbs said, Ramsey was a first-round pick, and you're supposed to start them, every time someone said you're supposed to start players with big contracts. Gibbs obviously probably thinks like most people who are smart enough to care about winning. He probably thinks you play the guys who you can win with, and those are usually guys better than other guys. As a Skin fan, are you seriously suggesting Joe Gibbs is as dumb as you to let the contract of a player, or the round a player is picked in, determine whether he starts or not? Every single one of us, including Patrick Ramsey, saw how Brunell beat him out. Brunell was no great shakes, no doubt. But he was better than Ramsey when faced with competition. So, please, quit thinking others are smoking something to suggest a Hall of Fame head coach actually cares enough about about winning to play guys who play better than other guys. Please don't do that to yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirSmizzy Posted July 19, 2005 Author Share Posted July 19, 2005 Originally posted by FLSKINSFAN 100% false. It was a fair competition from the start and Brunell outplayed him, ask anyone. You didn't read the camp reports or watch a single snap of preseason play. If you had, you would know how wrong this comment is. There was no way brunell got as much $$$ as he did to back up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirSmizzy Posted July 19, 2005 Author Share Posted July 19, 2005 Originally posted by Art I'm glad we could provide you information you lacked and now you can adjust your thinking accordingly. :laugh: thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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