Italian judge orders arrests of 13 CIA agents

[Prosperity]

Italian judge orders arrests of 13 CIA agents

Associated Press

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/front/3239709

ROME — An Italian judge ordered the arrests of 13 people in the purported CIA abduction of an imam, who then was sent to Egypt, the Milan prosecutor's office said today. An Italian official said earlier the 13 were CIA officers involved in U.S. anti-terrorism efforts.

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The 13 are suspected of seizing Osama Moustafa Hassan Nasr, known as Abu Omar, on the streets of Milan on Feb. 17, 2003, and sending him to Egypt, where he reportedly was tortured, Milan prosecutor Manlio Claudio Minale said in a statement.

An Italian newspaper said all 13 were American agents.

The U.S. Embassy in Rome and the CIA in Washington declined to comment.

The prosecutor's statement did not name any of the suspects, give their nationalities or mention the CIA by name, but an Italian official familiar with the investigation confirmed newspaper reports Friday that the suspects were working for the CIA. The official requested anonymity because he was not authorized to release the information.

Minale said the suspects remained at large, and Italian authorities would ask the United States and Egypt for assistance in the case.

Prosecutors believe the officers seized Omar as part of the CIA's "extraordinary rendition" program, in which terror suspects are transferred to third countries without court approval, according to reports today in newspapers Corriere della Sera and Il Giorno.

The statement said Omar was attacked by two people while walking from home to a local mosque and hustled into a white van. He was taken to Aviano, a joint U.S.-Italian base north of Venice; another American air base in Ramstein, Germany; and then Cairo.

Investigators confirmed the abduction through an eyewitness account and other, unidentified witnesses, the statement said.

The statement said Omar was abused by interrogators in Egypt, according to phone calls made by Omar from Egypt to his wife and another unnamed Egyptian citizen in April-May, 2004.

Italian papers have reported that Omar, 42, said in the calls he was tortured with electric shocks.

Today, Corriere della Sera cited another Milan-based imam as telling Italian authorities that Omar had been tortured in Egypt after refusing to work in Italy as an informer.

According to the testimony, Omar was hung upside down and subjected to extreme temperatures and loud noise that damaged his hearing, Corriere reported.

Minale said the judge rejected a request for arrest warrants for six more suspects believed to have helped prepare the operation.

Judge Chiara Nobile ordered the arrests after investigators traced the 13 through check-in details at Milan hotels and their use of Italian cell phones during the operation, the reports in Corriere and Il Giorno said.

Il Giorno said the 13 were American agents, and three of them were women.

Minale said a judge also issued a separate arrest warrant for Omar on terrorist charges. In that warrant, Judge Guido Salvini claimed the seizure of Omar represented a violation of Italian sovereignty, according to Italian news agency Apcom.

Omar was believed to have fought alongside jihadists in Afghanistan and Bosnia, and prosecutors were seeking evidence against him before his disappearance, according to a report in La Repubblica newspaper last year, which cited intelligence officials.

The prosecutor's office said Omar was released by the Egyptians after his interrogation but later was arrested again.

Corriere said Italian police picked up details, including cover names, photos, credit card details, and U.S. addresses that the 13 had given to a number of five-star hotels in Milan around the time of Omar's alleged abduction.

It said investigators also found the prepaid highway passes the 13 used for the journey from Milan to the air base.

The report said investigations showed the 13 ran up $144,984 in hotel bills in Milan, and two couples took holidays in northern Italy after delivering Omar at the Aviano air base.

[Larry]

What, no comments? I thought this piece was loaded with things that people could latch onto. I read it, but didn't have time to respond, and I've been wondering what kinds of things the folks 'round here would have to say to this.

Corriere said Italian police picked up details, including cover names, photos, credit card details, and U.S. addresses that the 13 had given to a number of five-star hotels in Milan around the time of Omar's alleged abduction.

The report said investigations showed the 13 ran up $144,984 in hotel bills in Milan, and two couples took holidays in northern Italy after delivering Omar at the Aviano air base.

Shaken, not stirred.

I wonder if they had any tuxedos made.

-----

Or, how about "Who the heck put them in charge of who can or can't kidnap their citizens from their own soil?"

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Or, I seem to recall being told, once, that this country once went to war with England, because that country thought that it had the right to kidnap American citizens (from international locations). Funny, our outrage over that kind of behavior only seems to apply when it's other countries doing it to us.

(The Geneva Convention seems to work the same way.)

(The question of legal jursidiction does, too: We can do anything, anywhere, because a US court said so. We're immune to everybody else's laws. Even when we're in their countries.)

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I've pointed out that I'm not opposed to the idea that there are some things which justify a country going to war. IMO, for example, the US should have declared war on Iran over the embasy hostages. (I don't know if the Ayatollah approved storming our embasy in advance, but it's certain that if he wanted them released, then they would have been. Therefore, their continued captivity was an official action of the Iranian government.)

It's hard to think of a better reason for Country A to go to war, than if Country B sends people into Country A, to kidnap one of their citizens and have him tortured.

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This makes two cases, that we know of, of this happening. I figure that, for every case we know of, there are at least ten that we don't know of.

Are the benefits of this program, worth twenty countries going to war with the US?

-----

No, I don't see Italy (or Canada, or any of the other countries we've probably done this to) going to war over this. I think they'd be justified, but that doesn't make it smart.

However, some questions.

What do you think the US should do about this? (What I think they will do is: Stonewall, deny, lie, and claim that we didn't do it, and we're justified if we do.)

What do you think Italy should do about it? (And Germany gets a vote, too, since the "kidnap train" passed through their territory, too.

For example, if you're the President of Italy, and you have evidence that a foreigh country is using a military base in your country as a staging area for state-sponsored kidnapping, can you possibly justify allowing them to keep the bases?

[stevenaa]

"Investigators confirmed the abduction through an eyewitness account and other, unidentified witnesses, the statement said.

The statement said Omar was abused by interrogators in Egypt, according to phone calls made by Omar from Egypt to his wife and another unnamed Egyptian citizen in April-May, 2004.

Today, Corriere della Sera cited another Milan-based imam as telling Italian authorities that Omar had been tortured in Egypt after refusing to work in Italy as an informer"

Well I see we have a plethora of credible witnesses to work with.

"Judge Chiara Nobile ordered the arrests after investigators traced the 13 through check-in details at Milan hotels and their use of Italian cell phones during the operation, the reports in Corriere and Il Giorno said."

And they were able to determine the real identities of CIA operatives on a covert mission??

Or, I seem to recall being told, once, that this country once went to war with England, because that country thought that it had the right to kidnap American citizens (from international locations). Funny, our outrage over that kind of behavior only seems to apply when it's other countries doing it to us.

I suppose that depends on the context. I don't have a problem with it if it is known that the individual has direct ties to a terrorist organization and can provide useful information. But, obviously, the presumption of innocence is out the window here.

[Hooper]

And the hits just keep on comin'.

[Fred Jones]

The report said investigations showed the 13 ran up $144,984 in hotel bills in Milan, and two couples took holidays in northern Italy after delivering Omar at the Aviano air base.

Ok, so the Italians have some agenda on their minds in filing the charges. Some growing discontent with the U.S. and it's policies. Sounds like the guy was a terrorist so move.

All was well until the quote above. That is a lot of money to spend on hotel bills and what was with the two couples taking a holiday together? What is this James Bond with the girl at the end of the movie?

[stevenaa]

"All was well until the quote above. That is a lot of money to spend on hotel bills and what was with the two couples taking a holiday together? What is this James Bond with the girl at the end of the movie?"

And there's absolutely no way those facts may be completely wrong???

[SkinsHokieFan]

Originally posted by Fred Jones

All was well until the quote above. That is a lot of money to spend on hotel bills and what was with the two couples taking a holiday together? What is this James Bond with the girl at the end of the movie?

Milan is an absurdly EXPENSIVE city.

Seriously, I have never seen some things more overpriced then I did in Milan. 600 dollar pants?!?

[Larry]

Originally posted by SkinsHokieFan

Seriously, I have never seen some things more overpriced then I did in Milan. 600 dollar pants?!?

400 dollar hammers?

[Larry]

Originally posted by stevenaa

Well I see we have a plethora of credible witnesses to work with.

And they were able to determine the real identities of CIA operatives on a covert mission??

You're right. They weren't american agents.

They were "unknown individuals who have the ability to transport kidnapped people into a US military base, fly him to another base, and then fly him out of that one."

People who (the article doesn't mention, but it seems to imply) also had the ability to manufacture fake US passports and identities.

I know! It was Iranians (Do we want to blame Iran? Or it it Syria this week?) who were trying to make it look like Americans. (Iranians who have the ability to transport prisoners into American military bases.)

Yeah, that's the ticket!

[stevenaa]

Larry,

Why such a snotty condecending reply? Do you find it easier to attack than to discuss? Seems like that's the exact type of behavior you pin on the right.

I pointed out that the sources are questionable and I find it hard to believe they could determine the identity of the CIA agents. I never stated it couldn't/didn't happen. In fact, I stated I didn't have a problem with it under the right circumstances. I'm just not as quick as you to convict our big bad government on the allegations made by a country opposing the war in Iraq. But then, I guess innocent until proven guilty shouldn't apply to our government.

[prophet]

whats the big deal :whoknows:

they are spies doing their job

[Larry]

stevenaa,

You'll notice, in my original post, I made a prediction as to what our nation's response to these allegations would be: Stonewall, deny, delay. While also claiming that we were justified.

Your post hit it in one.

This is the same line that has been used for every single allegation that has been made against this administration: "Well, the person who said those terrible things about us obviously disagrees with us, therefore anything he says should be dismissed."

Even when our own government substantiates the allegations, the response is "well, this just proves what great people we all are, because we have investigations into ourselves (which we immediatly disregard). Obviously, the next claim we make must be accurate, because we're such great people."

Nope, nobody's abusing people at Gitmo. Couldn't happen, we're the good guys. Anybody who says we're abusing people is obviously a liar who can't be believed. And even if we were abusing people, it's OK, 'cause we've got these legal papers that we just happened to have drawn up, even though we had no intention of doing any of these things, that claim that we could do those things, but we're not. Trust us.

Well, actually, the FBI says we are doing those things, but it really doesn't say we are doing those things, it just says that a bunch of terrorists (who we decided to release without charges, but they're still terrorists, anyway. Just because.) say we're doing it. And who are you going to believe, a bunch of (released) terrorists (they're still terrorists), or us?

Well, OK, now the military says we're, well, doing things to people. but look, it's not torture, 'cause we've got this memo (not that we were planning on doing any of this, or anything) that says that as long as we stop short of permanent medical harm, then it's OK. And we've got doctors there, to make shure that, when we suffocate people, we always stop before they die, so it must be OK.

And those folks, the ones who've been claiming we've been doing this for over a year? Well, they're still unreliable sources. After all, who're you going to believe, them or us?

-----

Now, I'm quite willing to believe that the Italian Secret Service has not penetrated CIA and revealed the "true identities" of the agents involved.

In fact, if the Italians have anything more in the way of identification than 13 disposable identities, then I think the agents involved deserve to spend life in an Italian jail, for incompetance.

OTOH, I think the fact of the arrest orders indicates that the Italians do have a bit more to go on than a verbal statement from one imam.

Judge Chiara Nobile ordered the arrests after investigators traced the 13 through check-in details at Milan hotels and their use of Italian cell phones during the operation, the reports in Corriere and Il Giorno said.

Il Giorno said the 13 were American agents, and three of them were women.

Minale said a judge also issued a separate arrest warrant for Omar on terrorist charges. In that warrant, Judge Guido Salvini claimed the seizure of Omar represented a violation of Italian sovereignty, according to Italian news agency Apcom.

Omar was believed to have fought alongside jihadists in Afghanistan and Bosnia, and prosecutors were seeking evidence against him before his disappearance, according to a report in La Repubblica newspaper last year, which cited intelligence officials.

The prosecutor's office said Omar was released by the Egyptians after his interrogation but later was arrested again.

Corriere said Italian police picked up details, including cover names, photos, credit card details, and U.S. addresses that the 13 had given to a number of five-star hotels in Milan around the time of Omar's alleged abduction.

It said investigators also found the prepaid highway passes the 13 used for the journey from Milan to the air base.

So, for example, the fact that the man disapeared from Italy and appeared in an Egyptian jail (without, aparantly, a story as to how he got to that jail) seems good enough to stand up in court.

And they appear do have some documented evidence (remember evidence? It's what the US used to use, before "faith-based intel" became popular) that he was transported to a US airbase.

Now, is it possible that the people involved were impersonating Americans? Could be. (You mean the kidnappers could've given a fake address to the hotel clerk? Who would've thought of such a thing?) But, my point was, while there are a lot of people who could give a fake name to a hotel clerk, and there are a large (but smaller) number who could get fake credit cards and passports, the number of people who can make a kidnapped man disappear into an American military base, in Europe, post-911 is, I would hope, considerably smaller.

[Larry]

[crickets chirping]

I'll ask again: You're the President of Italy. You have evidence (good enough to stand up in court) that the US has been using one of it's bases, inside your country, as a base to support kidnapping your citizens for the purpose of having them tortured. The citizen they kidnapped is one who you were investigating as being a terrorist, so he's not one of the pillars of your community. OTOH, because of this article, your voters are now aware of these allegations, too.

What do you do?

(Voice in the back: "Shoot the hostage".)

[Thiebear]

This is apparently one of Larry's pet peeves...

if you wait another 4 hours he'll tell you the above question without arguing with you on how yours is so wrong .

[Larry]

[Fred Jones]

To continue this investigation

Italians Detail Lavish CIA Operation

13 Charged in '03 Abduction Allegedly Stayed in Finest Hotels

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/25/AR2005062501127.html

MILAN, June 25 -- For 19 American intelligence operatives assigned to apprehend a radical Islamic preacher in Milan two years ago, the mission was equal parts James Bond and taxpayer-financed Italian holiday, according to an Italian investigation of the man's disappearance.

The Americans stayed at some of the finest hotels in Milan, sometimes for as long as six weeks, ringing up tabs of as much as $500 a day on Diners Club accounts created to match their recently forged identities, according to Italian court documents and other records. Then, after abducting their target and flying him to Cairo under the noses of Italian police, some of them rounded out their European trip with long weekends in Venice and Florence before leaving the country, the records show.

ilan prosecutors and police spent the last two years documenting Americans' role in the Feb. 17, 2003 disappearance of Hussan Mustafa Omar Nasr, 42, an Egyptian cleric. On Thursday, a Milan judge ruled that there was enough evidence to warrant the arrest of 13 suspected CIA operatives on kidnapping charges.

The Americans' whereabouts are unknown, and Italian authorities acknowledged that the odds were slim that they would ever be taken into custody. The CIA has declined to comment.

While most of the operatives apparently used false identities, they left a long trail of paper and electronic records that enabled Italian investigators to retrace their movements in detail. Posing as tourists and business travelers, the Americans often stayed in the same five-star hotels, rarely paid in cash, gave their frequent traveler account numbers to desk clerks and made dozens of calls from unsecure phones in their rooms.

During January 2003, they were regular patrons at the Hotel Principe di Savoia in Milan, which bills itself as "one of the world's most luxuriously appointed hotels" and features a marble-lined spa and minibar Cokes that cost about $10. Seven of the Americans stayed at the 80-year-old hotel for periods ranging from three days to three weeks at nightly rates of about $450, racking up total expenses of more than $42,000 there.

The first operative came to Milan on Dec. 7, 2002 and stayed for 11 days at the Milan Westin Palace, according to the court documents. The others started arriving in early January and by Feb. 1 almost all of them were in place. They eschewed safe houses and private homes, bunking instead at places such as the Milan Hilton ($340 a night) and the Star Hotel Rosa ($325 a night).

In early February, most of the operatives gathered for a rendezvous in La Spezia, an Italian seaside resort town on the Ligurian coast, almost a three-hour drive from Milan. Hotel records show that they checked into two hotels in La Spezia but stayed for only a few hours before departing. Some of them then drove to Florence for an overnight trip, but the rest returned to Milan.

According to Milan investigators, there were two distinct groups. One crew of six was in charge of planning and surveillance, checking out possible escape routes and procuring cell phones. Each of those people left the country about a week before Nasr was reported missing.

The other group -- which included almost all of those whose arrests are now being sought -- was in charge of the kidnapping operation itself, according to court documents.

On Feb. 17, shortly after noon, Nasr walked down the Via Guerzoni toward a mosque to attend daily prayers. He was being watched by a crew of eight operatives, who accosted him on the sidewalk, sprayed chemicals in his face and shoved him into the back of a white van, according to an eyewitness statement given to investigators.

The Americans, who between them were carrying 17 cell phones, immediately started dialing numbers in Italy and the United States, according to investigators, who reported that by piecing together records of those phones' electronic signals they were able to trace the route of the van as it headed toward Aviano Air Base, a joint U.S.-Italian military installation.

The van entered the base without being stopped at the regular security checkpoints, Milan investigators found. Court documents show that a U.S. colonel at the air base in charge of security received three phone calls from the operatives as they drove toward Aviano.

Milan prosecutors said they would ask the U.S. government for permission to interrogate the colonel, concluding that "it reasonably appears that he was involved with the execution of this kidnapping and safekeeping of the hostage." The colonel now works at the Pentagon, according to a report Saturday in Corriere della Sera, an Italian newspaper.

A few hours after his arrival at Aviano, Nasr was put aboard a Learjet and taken to Ramstein Air Base, a U.S. military installation in Germany. There, he was transferred to another plane, which flew him to Cairo, Italian court records show.

Most of the CIA operatives apparently did not accompany Nasr on his flights. Hotel records show that all but one of the Americans allegedly involved in the abduction stayed in Italy for a few days afterward. Four of them checked into luxury hotels in Venice. Two others spent a couple of days in the Italian Alps before leaving the country.

Milan investigators determined, however, that the operative they described as the leader and organizer of the kidnapping -- a CIA officer based in Milan whose identity was well known to Italian counterterrorism officials -- showed up in Cairo five days after Nasr disappeared, according to the court records.

One remaining mystery in the case is whether Italian intelligence officials knew about the operation beforehand.

Opposition politicians in Rome have asked the parliamentary intelligence oversight committee to question Interior Minister Giuseppe Pisanu and Defense Minister Antonio Martino about whether they were aware of and had approved the operation, known in CIA parlance as an "extraordinary rendition." Cases that have come to light in the past have generally proceeded with the cooperation of local officials.

Marco Minniti, a member of the Democratic Left opposition party, said the request was made "to ascertain if members of Italian intelligence participated in the operation and, if so, what role they had."

Paolo Cento, a Green Party member, said: "The alternatives are only two. Either our authorities knew, or the American 007s had full freedom of action on our territory."

Talk about some fraud, waste and abuse of tax payer money. The Italians have obviously spent some time investigating this case and some of their officials knew about this operation before it happened.

The CIA sounds like a good place to work if you get to travel the world and spend weeks at lavish motels with unlimited expense accounts. To top it off when the operation is done you get to spend a few extra days enjoying the country.

[Prosperity]

I can understand if part of the cover was to be a rich business man or something, only the post kidnapping days should definitely be considered waste.

[Larry]

Um, I could care less how much money they spent. It's a nice subject for jokes, but it's not important.

What I'm more concerrned with is did we do it?

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I wasn't visualising this as happening that long ago. (I guess I'd been assuming that a recent news story implied a recent event. Silly me.)

It does look like the Italians do, indeed, have at least a paper trail.

And at least one name. Evidence seems to say that the kidnap vehicle was personally cleared into the base by a (full?) colonel in charge of base security.

Which, in turn, makes a really strong case that these events were, in fact, authorised by the US.

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I'm also curious to find out if the Italian government authorised "the hit". It would put a different light on things.

This could turn out to be an event that was sanctioned by the Italians, and now it's being used by an opposing political party.

(Which doesn't mean that the Italians won't now be forced, now that things have leaked, to take some action in protest of the very thing they authorised.)

[Thiebear]

Isnt this the point?

They are CIA.. they do underhanded and shifty stuff...

If they are caught they are disowned and not supposed to be tracked... cya..

THey should give up on the company credit cards though.. I heard they are kinda hard to hide...

[DCBnG21]

I'd say if they were that easy to track...they probably were blessed to be in the country. Somehow, I just don't think they would've made it that easy if they were trying to hide.

"The CIA sounds like a good place to work if you get to travel the world and spend weeks at lavish motels with unlimited expense accounts. To top it off when the operation is done you get to spend a few extra days enjoying the country."

Yeah, it's probably also a great place to work to get your nuts chopped off and fed to you. Don't start to act like you could do their job, or remotely understand the things they go through.

You have none of the details, it's purely hearsay at this point, and even if they did get a vacation, are you going to tell me that working in the private sector you wouldn't get a bonus for putting your life on the line? Please....

[Fred Jones]

I'd say if they were that easy to track...they probably were blessed to be in the country. Somehow, I just don't think they would've made it that easy if they were trying to hide.

"The CIA sounds like a good place to work if you get to travel the world and spend weeks at lavish motels with unlimited expense accounts. To top it off when the operation is done you get to spend a few extra days enjoying the country."

Yeah, it's probably also a great place to work to get your nuts chopped off and fed to you. Don't start to act like you could do their job, or remotely understand the things they go through.

You have none of the details, it's purely hearsay at this point, and even if they did get a vacation, are you going to tell me that working in the private sector you wouldn't get a bonus for putting your life on the line? Please....

Who says I don't put my life on the line when I go to work? Who says I work for the private sector? Who says I have not filled out government expense reports and had to account for travel expenses and returned the government credit card with a copy of all receipts? Who says I don't know people in the CIA? Heck, you have to look no further than the FBI if you want excessive government waste.

Lastly, I was not talking about the risk that is inherent to their job. Other agencies of the government, including DOD, claim they don't have any money. If the CIA spent this much money on this one particular operation, imagine what it spends on all their operations combined.

[Larry]

This also raises another "what if" scenario:

I'm assuming that these folks only have one real name to go with all of these paper records: The colonel in charge of base security.

Supposedly, they have phone record which show that moments after the kidnapping, the kidnappers placed three calls to this colonel, while they were in the van, headed to the base.

And supposedly, they have something (which isn't disclosed in this article), which shows that when the van arrived at the base, it was allowed through security without stopping.

If the Italians didn't actually sign off on this operation, (Or, even if they did, but they decide, for political reasons, to act like they didn't), and if this court were to issue an extradition request for this colonel, naming him as an accessory to a kidnapping, what should the US do about it?

[twa]

If the Italians didn't actually sign off on this operation, (Or, even if they did, but they decide, for political reasons, to act like they didn't), and if this court were to issue an extradition request for this colonel, naming him as an accessory to a kidnapping, what should the US do about it?

..........................................................

Tell them to go hump a stump?

I guess I am not State department material.

Personally I think they had at least tactic approval from the Italians,never the less we would not turn over a officer .

This is likely just a renegade judge.

[Larry]

I recall once seeing "Diplomacy" defined as "The skill of telling someone to go to (heck) in such a way that he anticipates the trip".

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That said, you do realise, if that is the US response, then the US might as well just hoist a sign that reads:

"Attention, World: The United States has determined that it's citizens are immune to the laws of your country, even when they're in your country, unless the United States decides to allow your country to have laws. Any country which allows the US to have a base on it's soil, also allows that base to be used as a staging area from which to break your laws. The same is true of and US Embasy. The United States reserves the right, also, to ignore any treaty we may have agreed to with your country."

(Although, the articles do hold out the possibility that the Italians agreed to this op, which would put a whole 'nother light on things. It would go a long way to explain how they were able to get so much information about the operation, for example.)

[twa]

Larry , I agree with your thoughts and concerns.

However any embassy or military base is essentialy US territory,and while the Italians have the right to protest[iF it was not sanctioned]. Do you really feel this is more than a diplomatic "Tempest in a Teacup"?

I would expect nothing more serious than these individuals being considered persona non grata in Italy, IF they can figure out who they are;)