OT Poll In The Islamic World Shows....

The Grey Wackey · February 27, 2002

Instead of deciding who is at fault and who is more justifed, I'm going to focus on what actions we ought to take towards the arab/muslim world. 1) Restrict severly student visas from the problem arab countries. 2) Restrict all arab/muslim immigration to USA. Possible deep sleeper agents. 3) Continue to pressure contries with ties to al queda and military action w/ countries that don't comply. Hunt down all members (kill/capture). 4) Uncover current sleeper cells w/ extended monitoring authority of Muslim/arab community. 5) Carrot/stick approach to arab countries. 6) Start a more concerted effort to get the American position across to the various arab communities. 7) Fight myths of Israelly control of US because of there are alot of ignorant arabs believing this position. The only reason the arab/muslim community seems to understand is directed force. The arab streets became awfully quite as B-52, "the peace makers", sent Bin ladin's gang fleeing with their tails between the legs. I think the US military deserves a congrates for minimizing civilian casualties and devestating Al Queda in an extremely tricky environment.

Kefka · February 27, 2002

For your first post, it isn't a very good one. Don't run for office anytime soon.

Zen-like Todd · February 28, 2002

Mark... not so relevant to the thread... I was about to suggest the bleachers, but then, this thread should be in the bleachers too. Kefka.. this is the problem. The point is, don't spend so much time blaming others for the ills of your country. The U.S. has, as does any other country, problems of its own. It also has significant responsibilites as the sole remaining world superpower, and that is an extremely heavy burden to bear. For example, all previous world superpowers have been far, far more imperialistic than the U.S. Some would say they should be more actively involved in world affairs, but they don't want to be overbearing. Nonetheless, they try to act when they deem it absolutely necessary, and also to defend their national interests, again, as any other country would do. I think they do a relatively good job achieving this balance in an unstable global climate. Perfect? Nah. What many foreigners around the globe don't realize is that for the most part, the United States just wants to be left alone. The average American does not burn precious cycles forming a negative opinion towards all of the hundreds of small countries around the globe who like to think we as citizens take a personal, negative view towards them. We are far too busy watching and talking about football for that <img border="0" title="" alt="[smile]" src="smile.gif" /> . But if engaged, the U.S. responds quickly and firmly, as is befitting a world superpower. If they did not, they would contribute to destabilization.

The Grey Wackey · February 28, 2002

The Afghan war (I'm not even sure you can call it that) was an unmitigated success. The taliban, a corrupt and evil regime, was disposed and replaced with one that is more reflective of that community. The US military did a fantastic job of decreasing civilian casualites in a tricky environment. Al Queda was delt a serious blow to membership and capibilites. They are on the run with one less place to hide. Congratulations US Military, on a difficult job done very well. The US, and many of the Free World, are very impressed. Only the most radical islamic/arab will believe that the taliban and Al Queda were not "bad" or evil. Al Queda attacked a structure that they knew had civilian with the sole intent of killing Americans. The taliban attempted a systematic effort to elimate different ethnic groups within Afghanistan. Numerous reports are surfacing, that if accurate, will dwarf the number killed by US boming or 9/11 attacks. Systematic rape and forced prostitution of the afghan population was also a halmark of that enlighted Muslim ideal (the radicals muslim point to talibs as the true essence of their belief). Women were no better than livestock. They "interpreted" the Quoran to fit their needs (the radicals would say it is an accurate interpretation). I think anyone who denies this is "Brainwashed" by the Arab press who continue to own up to the possiblity that a muslim could do this. I have read numerous reports that when the taliban were defeated, along with the foreigners (al queda), people rejoiced, specifically the persecuted minority groups. This Sunday I was reading about the brave Afghans who provided cordinates for the bombers. They claim many afghans are happy the US came to that neighborhood. I personally feel very good about the overall effect of US military. Afghan will be a better place for it.

fansince62 · February 28, 2002

kefka....sorry.....but the first and primary responsibilty of the American government is to protect its citizens and advance its national interests (economic, security, erc). there has been a long and dynamic debate in this country (unlike certain other nations) over the moral dimensions that shape our foreign policy. that there are conflicts of interest, culture, morality in the international arena should come as no surprise to anyone. if you find the current American hegemony (perhaps an ill chosen word!) of economic and military power unsettling - well...too bad. it's an historical fact and we are going to act on it. the key notions are that we are a democracy, we have a diversified/multicultural population that tends to push its support for government activity toward the center, we have an "infrastructure" of governing instituitions that tend to be self-checking (by design), we have a media that tends to force facts into an open forumn so that informed consent of the governed is possible, we have a legal system that tends to favor impartiality while facilitating stability, and on and on. if we have to attach values to all of this, and i implicity have, then you have no leg to stand on. as an American i suffer no compunction in standing up and without reservation asserting that - warts and all - ours is by far the preeminent political-economy now and perhaps to date. middle eastern history, cultural, religious, educational, scientific, etc., achievements notwithstanding (and they are substantial)....it is very difficult not to harbor contempt for many of those whom you find so attractive. the evident disregard for the value of life, basic freedoms and human dignity is clear. the biggest threat is not us - it is yourselves.

TennesseeCarl · February 28, 2002

I would agree with Kefka to the extent that if our economic interests weren't entwined with the Middle East, we probably wouldn't care. I believe the Palestinians are getting a raw deal. But where's the help from their Muslim 'brothers'? Why haven't Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Oman and some of the other incredibly wealthy states come to the aid of Palestine? Why do Palestinians head to Europe to work? It's because the Arab states won't touch 'em with a ten-foot pole. With the wealth of that region, they could have build Palestine into a shining city the like of which would put Tel Aviv to shame. But noooooooo.... I don't beleive in Muslim 'brotherhood' any more than I believe in Christian 'brotherhood'. As for suffering in Bosnia, it's my recollection that it was a coalition of predominantly Christian nations that intervened to stop the bloodshed.

Dr. D · February 28, 2002

Kefka, you defend the indefensible soley because of religious affiliation. this in itself is so fallacious as to cease further discussion on the subject. If, my brother, you seek further enlightenment: read "Exodus". Leon Uris "Modern times". Paul Johnson

February 28, 2002

There is actually a new energy source that is in use now by NASA and others. The have already started production of cars powered by this new energy source. In the near future you will be able to get 1,000 miles to a gallon of water. see <a href="http://www.haruth.com/FuelCells.html" target="_blank">Fuel Cells</a> We just need to push for this through our government. These cells will also allow us to make our own electricity and heat our homes. The by-product of this energy source is water vapor and it will clean up the environment, while taking the Arab lobby out of the world politics.

Riggo-toni · February 28, 2002

Kefka You insist on blaming us for the deaths of Muslims everywhere by their own leaders. So tell me, whom should we blame for your Muslim Brothers slaughtering innocent Christians in Nagarno-Karabakh? We went against our own self-interests and bombed Serbian Christians to protect your Muslim brothers in Bosnia-Herzegovina and Kosova (yes, that's the true spelling). We sent Marines to protect your Muslim brothers in Lebanon from Maronite Christians. While it would be fair and accurate to have blamed the US for the Shah's repressive regime in Iran, to blame us for dictatorships that have sprouted in Iraq, Syria, or other countries is simply ludicrous, outright laughable. Assad was an ally of our nemesis the Soviet Union. He slaughtered 50,000 religious fundamentalists (excuse me, your brothers) in Hama. Do you blame us for this, as well? Saddam gained power by otherthrowing British supported King Faisal. The US has done more than any other country to persuade the Israelis to make peace with the Palestinians. Compare these efforts to your brothers in Kuwait, who expelled all Palestinians after the Gulf War, or the late King Hussein of Jordan who pushed them into Lebanon, or any of the other surrounding Arab countries who force them to stay in squalid refugee camps. You are correct in pointing out that the original modern terrorist organizations in the Middle East were Zionist groups opposed to British rule, but in fairness they concentrated on military targets rather than the civilian ones favored by Hamas and Al Quaeda. All your rantings illustrate why I am so passionate about what I said in my first post in this topic. I wish the US would completely extricate itself from the Middle East (as well as other areas). No aid, no military support, no action, not to anybody, Arab or Israeli. Let you guys handle everything in your own backyard. What will happen? As they say, be careful what you wish for, or you may get it. Kuwait will go back to being Iraq's 19th province, Israel will seal its borders and expel non citizens, Egypt will collapse, and Saddam will likely invade the Arabian peninsula as well. It may be a disaster, but I doubt it will affect us anywhere nearly as much as all the policy wonks believe. Whatever regimes emerge will still need to sell oil, and nowadays we have the Caspian and the North Sea as well. As for your native Afghanistan, we gave them $3 billion in aid and stinger missiles to fight the Russians. We are now finally seeing the error of our ways. We should have stayed out of that one way back when as well. After all, clearly you feel that by doing so we violated your sovereignty...

Riggo-toni · February 28, 2002

By the way, Dr. D, your stock just went up about 1000% in my book. Modern Times is THE book on 20th century history, although I think he is too harsh on Kennedy spending money on the space program, while completely ignoring all of Nixon's socialist policies. Still, I love Paul Johnson. Excellent historian. History of the Jews and Birth of the Modern are also good, although Birth of the Modern definitely gets bogged down in several spots with just way too much detail. Probably a definitive book on the creation of the modern Middle Eastern dilemna is a book called The Peace to End All Peace. I can't remember the author's name. When asked if he had any regrets about his presidency, Andrew Jackson replied, "I should've hung Calhoun while I had the chance!"

fansince62 · February 28, 2002

fellas......disengaging from oil dependencies is a necessary but not a sufficient condition for reducing our current risk situation. the battle is now being fought on multipe planes, globally. we are in this for the long haul whether the oil flows from the middle east or not. we will not, cannot, disengage. it is a legitimate argument that the material, poliyical and human condition of over a billion people influences the stability of the global system.

Terry · February 28, 2002

Saddam Hussein has killed more Moslems than Israel has. But apparently Moslem 'brotherhood' doesn't take issue with that. Palestinians have a legitimate grievance and a legitimate cause. But they've so entwined it with an ineffective terror movement that any moral high ground that they should have has long been lost. But worse is the exploitation of the Palestinians by their 'brother' arabs and moslems around the region and world. Those countries could care less about the Palestinians (they never did before 1948). But in order to maintian their own undemocratic and authoritarian regimes, the cause of anti-zionism and Palestinian rights has been pumped up to a fever pitch. But even then, it's not blatant, because western markets, money, and technology are needed. And the US is the big dog that you can't ignore. So a more two-faced policy is used - fanning the anti_Israeli flames with one hand while sucking up to the US on the other. The Moslem and Arab world is bankrupt as a source of ideas and modernizing trends. It happily co-exits with grinding poverty for most and untold riches for a very few. It relegates women to second class citizenship. It scapegoats Israel and the west for problems for which it is often the cause, and offers no hope for a rewarding life. Indeed, the best it can offer is a martyr's death. After an intital flowering of science, art, and letters, Islam has been co-opted by the religious conservatives and has offered the world nothing during the past 500 years except authoritarianism. And it fails to provide the most basic answer of all - what happens if Israel disappears tomorrow and the West disapears with it? Would the plight of the average arab or moslem improve? Would the grinding poverty in Indonesia and the niddle east go away? Would the conflicts in the areas where Moslems, Hindus, and Christians have to co-exist cease? Would you have to start a holy war against them also? And say you win, then what? Do you then live in perpetual medeival times under the authority of the anti progressive, anti-tolerance, anti-science Mullahs? Some vision. [ February 28, 2002, 10:56 AM: Message edited by: Terry ]

Chief skin · February 28, 2002

They are ALL UNCIVILIZED SAVAGES even the effing kuwaitis who had to be saved from their OWN MUSLIM BROTHERS. We sholuld just go over their and blast the hell out of ALL OF THEM. They hate us anyway we have nothing to lose GO IN AND TAKE THE OIL and tell them this is the way it is going to be END OF STORY.

gbear · February 28, 2002

Every time I look at the middle east, I see a regrettable set of circumstances that came about by mismanagement and short sightedness on all sides. We (the western powers) set up Israel in a place where we displaced a people and cuased some very hard feelings. Jerusalem being a Holy place for multiple religions is certainly not a help. If somebody came and took my home, I might take up arms. If the rest of the world recognized the new owner, I might be concidered a terrorist. That being said, I'm not sold on the current approach 50+ years latter. If I took up arms when Israel was created and was still fighting, I would have thrown my entire life away. 50 years is along time to fight! For an entire people to fight so long...they are throwing away generations. Of course to stop it, there has to be some alternative. Kefka, is it your position that there have been NO alternatives for the Palestinians? Recognizing Israel and creating a seperate Nation state for Palestine has been put forth time and time again. None of the state run by your Muslim brotherhood has ever once agreed to this. I'm sorry, Egypt started to but the leader who proposed this was assasinated. To me it all comes down to "fine everythings gone to hell. What next?" This is what really gets me about the perceptions of America in the Middle East. On one hand, there is the perception that we are the super power and why aren't we doing more to protect Muslims. If we step in Somalia, it ignored and any killing of the US troops is cheered. If step in to prevent Kuwait from being annexed, we are only protecting our interests. On the other hand when we don't step in, we are "allowing terrible things to happen." I personally think we should never have allowed the slaughter of the Kurds in N. Iraq. BTW, where was your Muslim brotherhood then? Why was genocide okay then? Did you feel for those people as you claim to feel for the Palestinians? It just seems the US is in a damned if you damned if you don't in public opinion in the Middle East. So that makes me ask why is that? Could it be that very wealthy comfortable factions in control of many Middle Eastern countries have something to gain by blaiming the US for all problems in the region? Of course, blaiming outside forces for problems at home always rallies the populace. US need look no further than Bush's approval rating after Sept 11 to see the effect of an outside threat for bolstering domestic support. Middle Eastern leadership can use the US to explain why the riches from oil haven't trickled down to the masses in the area. To my way of thinking, the violence will continue as long as rich muslim leaders have incentives to make it continue. The only way t ocombat that for the US is to go back to a process started in the 70's and abandoned latter that decade. We need to educate and thus create a viable job market outside of oil in the middle East. The larger the middle class, the less of a hold the oil producing states will have on the opinions of the masses. That's why I cringe when I see drop all Muslim student visas.

Kefka · February 28, 2002

TennesseCarl and Terry(50% hehe), I agree with you 100%. The Arab nations surrounding Palestine aren't doing anything to help. Though this doesn't mean the Muslims inside these nations don't care. We're just being labeled terrorists for fighting back. In the case of Asad (the butcher), when he murders thousands upon thousands of innocent Muslims its because they are extremists. Meaning they're Muslim. Extremeskins hehehehe. Being a Muslim is not like being Christian... ie going to Church/Mosque/Temple one day a week and go about your business. "So a more two-faced policy is used - fanning the anti_Israeli flames with one hand while sucking up to the US on the other." Not anti-Israeli. Anti Zionist. Muslims and Jews lived peacefully when there was no Bristish/US/European involvement. Only people that are sucking up to the US are people who have lost their Islam. In Islam it is fine that we do have dialouge and trade. But to seek protection, help, and refuge with the US is not allowed. As I said a Muslim is a brother to a Muslim. So (like the arab leaders now) hiding behind the US is not very Islamic at all. Basically I'm saying if the US just keeps its nose out of the MidEast it would be much better. That includes your puppet leaders. [ February 28, 2002, 01:43 PM: Message edited by: Kefka ]

Kefka · February 28, 2002

fansince62 "kefka....sorry.....but the first and primary responsibilty of the American government is to protect its citizens and advance its national interests (economic, security, erc)." Thats fine, protect your intrest, just don't go screw the Muslims over when your doing it. Wow I've never been involved in such a long thread... <img border="0" title="" alt="[smile]" src="smile.gif" /> [ February 28, 2002, 01:48 PM: Message edited by: Kefka ]

Kilmer17 · February 28, 2002

But that will never happen. The US will ALWAYS support Israel. That fact will never change. So going forward, how can peace be brought about? I dont think it can. The only solution I see is for the Palestinians to leave Israel altogether. And if the Muslim countries dont like it, to effin bad. They already hate us, so why bother. Even the Kuwaitis polled 68 percent unfavorable towards the US. How quickly they forget that we saved their *** . They can go to hell. European Nations talk tough, but when puish came to shove, they would support Israel over Syria,Lebanon,Saudi Arabia and the rest of the muslim countries. Quite frankly, any country and govt that is unwilling to let its residents practice any religion they choose should be our sworn enemy.

Kefka · February 28, 2002

gbear, your right the Rich Arab leaders(your slaves) have basically stolen the money and rights of Muslim civilians. Hell in Saudi Arabia, where there is a monarcy( not in ISLAM), you can't own land, a business, a house. You have to report to a kafeel( sponsor of sorts ) to do anything. Kilmer17, thats why there will never be peace, In my opinion w/ the Israelis and Muslims. The Israelis should leave they are the ones in Palestinian land. How would you like it if someone came to your town, bulldozed your homes, and told you to go find another place to live. How would you like it if when you walking to school you're shot at or have to worry about being killed? Oh wait... I forgot you guys killed all the Indians off. "To effn Bad" I like that Kilmer shows what kind of person you are. "Quite frankly, any country and govt that is unwilling to let its residents practice any religion they choose should be our sworn enemy." Whos not allowing its residents to practice any religion they want? In Islamic Shariah and rule Christians/Jews were allowed to build their own places of worship and practice their religion as they please. Where are you coming from? Do your homework before you say ignorant things like that. [ February 28, 2002, 02:03 PM: Message edited by: Kefka ]

Die Hard · February 28, 2002

Gbear - You've been generating some good reads lately. I've been enjoying your posts <img border="0" title="" alt="[smile]" src="smile.gif" />

fansince62 · February 28, 2002

kefka....it's not that simple. the"muslim world" whatever that is since, as others have pointed out, muslims are not above killing one another in rather large numbers.....is going to have to rise to the standards of civility and international discourse of the rest of the world, the West in particlular. too much is intertwined for it to be otherwise - expressed differently, laisez-faire is not much of a foreign policy. right now, there aint no steps to the moral high ground for those who believe as you do. hatred, just injuries, perceived wrongs all count.....but they don't add up from what you have posted. btw, other than uncle sam go home, what is your proposed alternative for international comity, good will toward all and religious tolerance?

Die Hard · February 28, 2002

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Chief skin: They are ALL UNCIVILIZED SAVAGES... We should just go over their and blast the hell out of ALL OF THEM.<hr /></blockquote>My father is one who happens to agree with you. Although... it is a bit hypocritical don't you think? <img border="0" title="" alt="[smile]" src="smile.gif" />

Kilmer17 · February 28, 2002

Therein lies the problem. The Palestinians say it's theirs, the Israelis say it's theirs (not from the 20th century, but from the time before Islam even existed). But since Israel controls it now, it belongs to them. Would we give Texas back to Mexico if they wanted it? I know that's not a great analogy, but it's close. Conquered lands are annexed all the time, and have been for all of time. Right,wrong or indifferent, those are the facts. Adam Smith said it best- The strong do as they will, the weak do as they must. If the Palestinians throw stones, should the ISraelis respond with stones? or should they exterminate the problem so their civilians are safe? As it was pointed out (by geof I think) Israel has made many offers for a seperate Palestine state, but Terrorfat and his troops arent interested in anything but the destruction of Israel.

Kefka · February 28, 2002

Seriously speaking fansicn62, I don't know, I really don't know. We can all wish and hope for a utopian society, but its not going to happen realisticly. But, I believe ignorance has a lot to do with the problem also. We need to understand one another. More so for the US, it seems the majority of the population doesn't understand Islam at all. Not to put down the American people, but seriously, when you ask what a Muslim is they think we are arabs or such. There are christian arabs, they're are jewish/arab muslims. Its all mixed around. In the African sub-conttinent theyre are people who worship all kinds of things lol. This is one thing we can help to eliminate, ignorance. Exactly Kilmer17, Israelis say its their promised land (even though this is against Orthodox Judaism) and the Arabs (Muslims/Christians/whatever) say its theirs. Its funny that the US sides with the jews against their own Christian brothers but thats another story(Read Lebanon/Hamas). Arafat is a dumbass, hehe. The majority of the Muslism don't care for him at all (the nationalistic ones maybe). He is another one of the scared puppets. The true leaders are among the young Muslim generations who are fighting for their homes. The state of Israeli in it self is a crime. [ February 28, 2002, 02:17 PM: Message edited by: Kefka ]

gbear · February 28, 2002

I'm not real sure where the "slaves" quotes come from. It kind of smacks of calling a Black person an Uncle Tom. I'm not sure it's a fair depiction of the relationship the US has had with many of the foreign heads of state within the Middle East. As I look around, it seems to me that very few Middle Eastern countries have done much in the way of protecting American interests outside of selling us oil. Let us be clear on this too. Selling oil to the US and other western powers has long been in the middle easts best economic interests, not just the US interest. Quite frankly, the Middle East is not producing much in the way of marketable goods right now outside of oil. Unfortunately, that money is not being used to develope other marketable goods or services. Oil is the money of the middle East, and it's being sold in such a way as to maximize the amount of money the Middle Eastern countries can get from the West. That's why OPEC exists. Lord knows if these cartels were really our "slaves" we would have them selling a higher quanity at a lower price. Is it the US fault that the money doesn't reach the majority of Muslims in the Middle East or is it the fault of the oil cartel? When it comes to politics, Middle Eastern countries have rarely done as we would hope. Whether that means Libya training/housing terrorists or anyone recognizing that Israel is in fact a nation state, middle Eastern countries have been extremely difficult for the US to work with over the past 20 years. Anyway, I'm just puzzled as to why you think these leaders are a huge boon to the US currently? Granted there was a time where we used the middle East to make Russia as nervous as possible. But for the past 10+ years all the US really cared about was stability because that gives us the best market for buyng and selling. In that one respect, the desire for stability has caused the US to addopt policies with more respect for the lives of Muslims than it seems many fo the Muslim leaders have. Are you asking us to overthrow the corrupt middle eastern governments? Would that not be just more US invasion onto Holy Muslim soil? Is there really a policy that would make peace in the region and make much of the populace happier with the US? I rather doubt it.

Kefka · February 28, 2002

gbear, yes Oil is basically the money of the MidEast, the problem lies with these corrupt leader. Now where did these guys pop-up from? The Muslims sure didn't vote for them. I'm not saying the US should overthrow the government, hehe, that responsibility ( a difficult one) is upon the residents of the country. I'm not saying this is the solution, but granted the way things are going on, these leaders are getting richer and the Muslim population is getting poorer. Not all is bad. Iran is a good example. All I'm saying is keep your ideologies and politics out of Muslim lands. [ February 28, 2002, 02:45 PM: Message edited by: Kefka ]

OT Poll In The Islamic World Shows....

Recommended Posts

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Guest HarrySkin

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Archived

Recently Browsing 0 members