Atlanta Skins Fan Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 According to Forbes, Dan Snyder has run the NFL's most profitable team in the past decade, with an average operating income of $78 million. That's $780 million in operating profits. Forbes ranks the Redskins #4 among the world's most valuable sports teams, with $1.55 billion value. Instead of winning, Snyder & Co. have been making money. Meanwhile, by failing to invest money in a world-class training facility, Snyder has ensured that the team would lose, or at least never win big. Why? Because in today's NFL, the single most important long-term investment an owner can make in a franchise is a top training facility, specifically one with a large, indoor practice field in a permanent structure. (Not merely a bubble.) Such a facility enables the team to conduct crisp practices for all 16 games and the playoffs, providing "Home Facilities Advantage" for all games. Consider these statistics: 13 of last 14 Super Bowl participants had their own indoor practice facility. Last 8 Super Bowl winners had their own indoor practice facility. Last 6 Super Bowl winners had a fixed structure indoor practice facility (not a bubble). All 12 teams to make playoffs last season used their own indoor practice facility. 2010 teams who practiced using their own indoor full-field training facility had a median win total of 10 (10-6 record). 2010 teams who practiced outdoors had a median win total of 6 (6-10 record). 2010 teams who practiced indoors at own training facility averaged 4 more wins in 2010, compared to those who did not. 2010 teams who practiced outdoors and were not located in Florida or California, had the following records: 6-10 (Redskins), 6-10 (Cowboys), 5-11 (Cardinals), 4-12 (Bengals), 4-12 (Broncos), 2-14 (Panthers). Sure, the Redskins will apparently have a bubble finally for the 2011 season. But, a bubble is a cheap solution, costing as little as $100K. That's a few plays from Albert Haynesworth. These days, the going rate for a world-class NFL training facility is $75 million. That's what the Jets paid for theirs. Dan Snyder & Co are pocketing $780 million and tossing Mike Shanahan a bubble. The last time a bubble produced a Super Bowl champion was the 2005 Patriots, whose success was more directly traced to Tom Brady and Bill Belichick. The Patriots have since been beaten in the playoffs by teams with superior training facilities: 2006-07: Colts 2007-08: Giants 2009-10: Ravens 2010-11: Jets The Patriots are the high-water mark of bubble teams, and they've been outflanked by teams with better training facilities. Other teams with bubbles have done worse: Texans, Titans, Dolphins. All three of those teams have bubbles barely large enough for 100 yards. The Cowboys introduced their bubble facility in 2003, only to see it blow away in 2009. They have not rebuilt an indoor facility of any kind since, and meanwhile they have underperformed. The Broncos indoor facility isn't even large enough for a football field. Maybe that's why Denver started sliding in the late season under both Shanahan and McDaniels. McDaniels abandoned it altogether and practiced outdoors. You saw how that turned out. The Redskins won't play deep into the playoffs until they have a first-class training facility with a full-service practice field under a fixed structure. The bubble will help, certainly. But, it's literally a low ceiling in today's NFL. The Redskins simply lack the facilities investment required for success in the NFL. Until Dan Snyder spends what is required, expect the losing and short seasons to continue. What are we missing? See stats and photos below. Indoor Factor: Estimated drop in NFL rank attributed to practice facility effect. (Median drop is 13 slots in record for teams without no full-field indoor practice facilities. Drop per team adjusted for weather factors. Some teams with substandard bubble given a drop rating of 4.) Facilities Advantage: Combination of practice facility and home stadium effects on NFL rank. Home stadium effect determined by National Football Post ranking of NFL stadiums. Facilities Efficiency: Facilties Advantage, factored by NFL team value as assessed by Forbes. Teams with high Facilities Advantage and relatively low team value are assessed highest Facilities Efficiency. This is the degree of efficient reinvestment of operating profit by team ownership in team facilities. Redskins rank dead last in NFL, by a wide margin. What the good teams have: Green Bay Packers: Don Hutson Center (2 indoor practice fields) Pittsburgh Steelers: UPMC NY Jets: field house, part of new $75 million facility New Orleans Saints: 132,000 sq feet Chicago Bears NY Giants Seattle Seahawks Philadelphia Eagles: NovaCare Complex Indianapolis Colts What not to build Denver Broncos: No yard markers, tiny field ... No wonder Shanahan and McDaniels hit the wall. Miami Dolphins: Any more evidence needed that Dolphins are too cheap to win? Houston Texans: Not quite ready for prime time, much like the Texans Tennessee Titans: They'll need more than a Music City Miracle to win big from here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC9 Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 Where's the pic of the Dulles Hanger? All joking aside, Good work! Very good stuff! HAIL! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonnyandSam Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 Snyder is not the reason the Redskins have no practice facility. He has made the offer twice to coaches who declined; I know Gibbs was one that turned it down; I forget the other. And a permanent facility is an issue because much of the land at Redskins Park is in a flood plain. The Redskins announced plans earlier this year to heat one of their practice fields and are planning a temporary bubble type cover because Shanahan wants one. The fact that PG County is exploring the economic feasibility of hosting a Redskins training facility suggests the Redskins are considering moving Redskins Park; presumably so they can build an indoor facility.....although the Redskins have not confirmed this. It's not like Snyder does not like to spend money on the team. He has the highest coaches payroll; often the highest or one of the highest player payrolls; and the Skins stay at first class locations and fly/train in first class fashion. The problem has been the money has not been well spent; not that Snyder won't spend money. He spends plenty of money on the football operations. And I can't believe you are implying that an outdoor practice facility is more important than quality players and quality coaches. LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popeman38 Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 Shocking, an ASF thread bashing Dan Snyder. How original. Broad Run Flood Plain - that is all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselPwr44 Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 Horse hockey. Talent level means more on a team than the practice facility. So when the Saints were sucking, how much did the indoor facility factor into that? The Redskins and Dolphins, with all that bounty of talent you see when you look up and down their rosters( ) ,can't win because either they have no indoor facility or what indoor facility they do have is inadequate? How in the world did Joe Gibbs ever make the playoffs in his first stint here without an indoor practice facility?? What a bunch of bunk.......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KCClybun Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 Hasn't Mike said they're looking into building an indoor practice facility anyway? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibbs Hog Heaven Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 Am I right in recalling TK saying there was an issue with building an indoor facility with the County? Boss Man? Hail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atlanta Skins Fan Posted July 18, 2011 Author Share Posted July 18, 2011 How in the world did Joe Gibbs ever make the playoffs in his first stint here without an indoor practice facility?? You do understand that competitive dynamics change over time, yes? The single wing didn't work in the 1980s, but counter-trey did. Counter-trey did not work for Gibbs the second time around. When most NFL teams do not have world-class indoor practice facilities (as they did not in the 1980s), it's not a disadvantage not to have one. When the best teams do have such facilities, it becomes a disadvantage to lack one. Almost all the best facilities were built in the past 15 years. The league is changing. Having a great facility does not ensure success, but failing to have one can now prevent teams from practicing at top efficiency all 16 games and the playoffs, leading to worse records and shorter seasons. This is the inevitable effect of facing teams with similar talent and coaching, and better preparation through efficient practices. World-class training facilities are now a necessary, but not sufficient, foundation for success in today's NFL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibbs Hog Heaven Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 I'd be interested to know just how many days a year we lose to the weather. For a team that trains in the same elements we play in, I'd wager it's minimal. Hail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atlanta Skins Fan Posted July 18, 2011 Author Share Posted July 18, 2011 I'd be interested to know just how many days a year we lose to the weather. For a team that trains in the same elements we play in, I'd wager it's minimal. Half the games are played away, after practicing at home. Average away stadiums today have better climate conditions than Ashburn. Rain, snow, cold or wind on Wednesday and Thursday does not help preparation for Sunday at home, when Sunday is likely to have better weather on average. Even if elements are the same, it's debatable if being miserable all week makes playing in miserable weather more productive. Greater factors would be having a strong running game and run defense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McD5 Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 Love the train of thought ASF. Your threads are always interesting, and divert from the masses. It's hard to say this is the main reason for failure, but Dan can certainly be accused of being cheap over the years. (No jumbotrons until recently) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KCClybun Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 You do understand that competitive dynamics change over time, yes? The single wing didn't work in the 1980s, but counter-trey did. Counter-trey did not work for Gibbs the second time around.When most NFL teams do not have world-class indoor practice facilities (as they did not in the 1980s), it's not a disadvantage not to have one. When the best teams do have such facilities, it becomes a disadvantage to lack one. Almost all the best facilities were built in the past 15 years. The league is changing. Having a great facility does not ensure success, but failing to have one can now prevent teams from practicing at top efficiency all 16 games and the playoffs, leading to worse records and shorter seasons. This is the inevitable effect of facing teams with similar talent and coaching, and better preparation through efficient practices. World-class training facilities are now a necessary, but not sufficient, foundation for success in today's NFL. And as many have mentioned, Snyder has offered his coaches indoor facilities before and has been turned down by his coaches (actually deferring something to his coaches instead of just DOING it), and you can't just build an indoor facility because 1.) there's not a lot of space to do it and 2.) the whole facility is on a flood plain. The Redskins are looking to move facilities as has been reported several times, and Mike Shanahan has said several times they will build a temporary indoor practice bubble while they look to build a permanent indoor facility. Not sure what else you want except for Cosmo and Wanda to show up and just magic one up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwpanic Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 So you're saying JC and Zorn would have thrived if the skins had an indoor facility? Me thinks not. It's about the personnel. That's all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KCClybun Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 Also, you called the Seahawks a good football team. This invalidates your argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrypticVillain Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 Snyder is not the reason the Redskins have no practice facility. He has made the offer twice to coaches who declined; I know Gibbs was one that turned it down; I forget the other. And a permanent facility is an issue because much of the land at Redskins Park is in a flood plain. The Redskins announced plans earlier this year to heat one of their practice fields and are planning a temporary bubble type cover because Shanahan wants one.The fact that PG County is exploring the economic feasibility of hosting a Redskins training facility suggests the Redskins are considering moving Redskins Park; presumably so they can build an indoor facility.....although the Redskins have not confirmed this. What he said. When PG County and the Redskins come together on an agreement, the new practice facility will be built with an indoor practice field. Until then, the bubble would just have to suffice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpillian Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 I'd say the Patriots are a pretty big outlier in the data set. An alternative explanation given the facts: indoor facilities are more often indicative of a team's cash position and owner's proclivity for spending on the team. The perennially good teams normally have both (positive cash flow, committed owner). As a result, recent contenders have often had indoor facilities in which to train. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McD5 Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 And for those doubting the correlation between indoor practice facilities and winning, why do you believe we are building a bubble now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phixius Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 An indoor facility wouldn't of made a difference last season or the previous 4 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibbs Hog Heaven Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 Half the games are played away, after practicing at home. Average away stadiums today have better climate conditions than Ashburn.Rain, snow, cold or wind on Wednesday and Thursday does not help preparation for Sunday at home, when Sunday is likely to have better weather on average. Even if elements are the same, it's debatable if being miserable all week makes playing in miserable weather more productive. Greater factors would be having a strong running game and run defense. I've no objection to an indoor facility at all, but most of that is modern day codswallop. "Being miserable" all week? This is football man. If the players don't like practicing and playing in the elements then their in the wrong profession. Do you want to molly coddle them and wrap them in cotton wool all week to protect the poor dears from the wind and rain? What a shocking thought that multi millionaires should have to practice in such conditions. How dare we ask that of them? Even if we had an indoor facility, personally speaking, I'd want to be outside unless heavy snow or lightening deemed otherwise. You practice to play. And there's no better way of doing that in such diverse weather as DC by practicing in it so your ready come Sunday. You can say it's debatable the effect in your opinion if you like. And that's fine to state your opinion. But mine is their's no better experience than throwing and playing in the cold wind and rain when theirs a chance in the fall you might well face that on a Sunday. ---------- Post added July-17th-2011 at 08:09 PM ---------- And for those doubting the correlation between indoor practice facilities and winning, why do you believe we are building a bubble now? I would hope it's just for the most severe weather days like lightening and heavy snow when you can't practice outside to not lose a session. Indoor training, unless your under extreme conditions like a Texas summer, or a Wisconsin winter; should be the exception not the norm in a sport allegedly for 'men' Hail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atlanta Skins Fan Posted July 18, 2011 Author Share Posted July 18, 2011 "Being miserable" all week? This is football man. If the players don't like practicing and playing in the elements then their in the wrong profession. I had similar feelings, and so did Joe Gibbs the second time around. Unfortunately, the performance data in terms of won/loss records and playoff history in the past 8 years, contradicts what we want to believe. I don't think I've ever seen a single variable more correlated with NFL success, with the possible exceptions of QB rating and a coach's historical winning percentage. Of course, everyone knows how important it is to have a great QB and a great coach. Very few people understand the practice facilities correlation. I did not until I looked at the data. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McD5 Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 I would hope it's just for the most severe weather days like lightening and heavy snow when you can't practice outside to not lose a session. Indoor training, unless your under extreme conditions like a Texas summer, or a Wisconsin winter; should be the exception not the norm in a sport allegedly for 'men' Hail. There was a great article published two or three years ago from Sports Ilustrated. They were studying high school and college football players, and trying to determine why the state of Florida seems to produce more of the top players than any other state. Not coincidentally, they said Texas was second. Their finding? That due to crappy weather, football players up North were at a severe disadvantage to those from Florida. They said that over the years, a player from Florida could be considered to be one year ahead of the players up North. So, a junior in Florida was the same as a senior up North. When the crappy weather comes, players in the snow states (especially in HS and college) find themselves practicing inside on basketball courts, or not at all. In the meantime, Florida kids are running sprints under the hot sun. This would alleviate some of that competitive advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrelgreenie Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 Danny needs to build a bubble. Like yesterday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonnyandSam Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 I had similar feelings, and so did Joe Gibbs the second time around.Unfortunately, the performance data in terms of won/loss records and playoff history in the past 8 years, contradicts what we want to believe. I don't think I've ever seen a single variable more correlated with NFL success, with the possible exceptions of QB rating and a coach's historical winning percentage. Of course, everyone knows how important it is to have a great QB and a great coach. Very few people understand the practice facilities correlation. I did not until I looked at the data. OK...when you come back with your regression analysis considering all the variables that might affect a team's success, let me know. Until then, your practice facility theory is a theory and has nothing to do with being highly correlated, other than in your own mind. You did a nice job of gathering the information. And I'm certainly not opposed to a practice facility. But to suggest a practice facility is more important than playing talent and coaching talent......even you're not that goofy. ---------- Post added July-17th-2011 at 09:34 PM ---------- Danny needs to build a bubble.Like yesterday. It's been in the works for months....along with a heated field. Shanny asked for it; Snyder is delivering it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsHokieFan Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 When ASF posts a thread, he usually hits a homerun. This is another one of those homeruns. The 2011 NFL is a high tech NFL. Offenses are built on precision and timing. Plays must be practiced over and over in a crisp manner, muscle memory must be developed. Hell, ASF could start to go down the list of college programs and the correlation is there. There is no reason that LSU or Texas AtM should have better facilities then the Washington Redskins. This is the outside the box thinking that needs to get in the hands of the Redskins. When half the league has an advantage practice wise, you must catch up. OBVIOUSLY this will not make up for talent and coaching. However it is clearly a hindrance, all things being equal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atlanta Skins Fan Posted July 18, 2011 Author Share Posted July 18, 2011 There was a great article published two or three years ago from Sports Ilustrated. They were studying high school and college football players, and trying to determine why the state of Florida seems to produce more of the top players than any other state. Not coincidentally, they said Texas was second. Last year's Super Bowl teams practiced at local Texas facilities: Steelers at TCU, Packers at a high school. Cowboys had no such facility available. Check out what Texas has for collegiate and high-school football: Above: TCU, a $7 million facility Above: Highland Park High School, a $4.5 million facility; comments by Packers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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