NFL teams with indoor practice facilities averaged 4 more wins in 2010

[Crazy Levi]

Wouldn't practicing in the elements you play in help somewhat? They don't train soldiers exclusively in gyms.

Maybe in the past. I don't think that's the case any more.

You want these guys sick or frostbitten on game day, or do you want them in the freshest, best possible shape? You want them concentrating on the complicated game plans (both ways) of the modern NFL, or you want them shivering and miserable?

Back when each team had about 10 plays this might not have been the case, but I think it is now. I don't buy the "torturing players toughens them up" theory. It isn't 1955 anymore.

[Hitman21ST]

That wasn't his question. Post #94 is asking about the thread title claim: "has anyone debunked the "averaged 8 more wins" claim yet?"

I had a question on that...was it meant as indoor practice teams averaged 13 wins and outdoor practice averaged 5 (just for numbers sake, not those actual win totals) or that over the whole season, indoor teams won 208 and outdoor won 200 (just for numbers sake)?

[pjfootballer]

They never use the Astroturf field. The only reason they did last season is because they were literally forced to. Before that they just practiced on the grass fields like always. Again, I'm sure if a coach ASKED for the field to be changed then it would've been, but since no coach asked, Dan didn't just do it, because if that happened people would talking about how Dan was meddling and going against the wishes of his coaching staff.

Again, they're looking into moving Redskins Park to build better facilities.

We all know they are looking into moving Redskins Park. We're all just in here making observations about the current conditions of the practice fields. You repeating it over and over again is just stupid. We get it! They are looking for a place to put a new facility. Thanks for scoop, scoop! Now, to reply to you about the Astroturf field, it's embarrassing that none of the coaches asked Dan to replace it. How about that? Astroturf hasn't been around for 10 years. You'd think one of the dumbasses (coaches, owner or GMs) would have wanted to replace it by now.

[KCClybun]

That wasn't his question. Post #94 is asking about the thread title claim: "has anyone debunked the "averaged 8 more wins" claim yet?"

But your point has less to do with averaging eight more wins and more to do with the fact that you feel Dan won't spend the money to build one, despite the fact that this entire offseason Bruce Allen and Mike Shanahan have spoken and said the team are looking to build one. And several people have pointed out that most off the Super Bowl Champions from the past decade and change have had franchise quarterbacks and stable organization.

And do you stats and numbers take into account teams that practice outdoors until there's inclement weather? I seem to remember that most cold weather teams practice outside until inclement weather prevents them from doing so. Teams like the Steelers, the Vikings, the Jets, Giants, Packers, Eagles, etc., all seem to practice outside until they are quite literally forced to go indoors because of bad weather.

[cphil006]

Having an indoor facility doesn't prevent a team from selectively practicing in bad weather, part of the time, for that purpose.

Examples:

• Week 15: Redskins scheduled to play at Colts (dome). D.C. weather is awful all week preceding game. Team practices indoors, which happens to match game conditions.
  
• Week 16: More awful weather, but this time the Redskins are scheduled to host Cowboys at home. Game forecast is 25 degrees, chance of snow. Weather on Thursday and Friday is 28-30 degrees. Team conducts some of their drills outside, while working on general game plan indoors. Outdoor drills focus on running game / rush defense and short passes, and outdoor drills run only an hour due to the cold. They practice what they've learned indoors, as final steps for game prep. Special teams also does this on Saturday.
  

What were the results? I don't feel like checking

[Hitman21ST]

One question ASF:

What percentage does the practice facility play in win total?

[Atlanta Skins Fan]

do you stats and numbers take into account teams that practice outdoors until there's inclement weather? I seem to remember that most cold weather teams practice outside until inclement weather prevents them from doing so. Teams like the Steelers, the Vikings, the Jets, Giants, Packers, Eagles, etc., all seem to practice outside until they are quite literally forced to go indoors because of bad weather.

I think that's typical, so made no special provision for this. I think most football teams prefer to practice outdoors except in extreme temperatures, rain / snow, high winds, lightning.

---------- Post added July-19th-2011 at 01:53 PM ----------

One question ASF:

What percentage does the practice facility play in win total?

You're linking to Oldfan's concept. I don't accept that particular concept. Teams win for a variety of reasons. There are trends but not rules. One trend is a great QB. Another might be the ability to practice indoors in a good facility during inclement weather. It's possible to win without these things, but harder, generally.

[Hitman21ST]

I

You're linking to Oldfan's concept. I don't accept that particular concept. Teams win for a variety of reasons. There are trends but not rules. One trend is a great QB. Another might be the ability to practice indoors in a good facility during inclement weather. It's possible to win without these things, but harder, generally.

I know, I was being snarky.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

I had a question on that...was it meant as indoor practice teams averaged 13 wins and outdoor practice averaged 5 (just for numbers sake, not those actual win totals) or that over the whole season, indoor teams won 208 and outdoor won 200 (just for numbers sake)?

Was this ever answered?

[Atlanta Skins Fan]

Was this ever answered?

The precise answer is in the OP:

• 2010 teams who practiced using their own indoor full-field training facility had a median win total of 10 (10-6 record).
  
• 2010 teams who practiced outdoors had a median win total of 6 (6-10 record).
  
• 2010 teams who practiced indoors at own training facility averaged 8 more wins in 2010, compared to those who did not.
  

To be clear, this is a statement about 2010 results, not a statement that this magnitude of difference is typical or a linear causation. In my opinion the difference is growing as a general trend, but 2010 is probably an outlier year with an exaggerated correlation.

I checked prior years for playoff qualifiers and playoff results, and found the same trends, but less dramatic, except for Super Bowl participants, where the difference is stark for last 7 years.

[Hitman21ST]

The precise answer is in the OP:

• 2010 teams who practiced using their own indoor full-field training facility had a median win total of 10 (10-6 record).
  
• 2010 teams who practiced outdoors had a median win total of 6 (6-10 record).
  
• 2010 teams who practiced indoors at own training facility averaged 8 more wins in 2010, compared to those who did not.
  

Wouldn't that just be a four-game improvement?

[Atlanta Skins Fan]

Wouldn't that just be a four-game improvement?

Ha! You're exactly right. Thread title should be amended. Sorry about that.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

Wouldn't that just be a four-game improvement?

From those three lines alone, yes lol :yes:...Not sure how the "8 game improvement" stat was reached. Without knowing the records in any given year, if you broke the teams into two categories it would seem difficult for one group of teams to average 8 more wins than the other group...unless one group was "Teams that went 0-16" lol.

---------- Post added July-19th-2011 at 11:33 AM ----------

Ha! You're exactly right. Thread title should be amended. Sorry about that.

You debunked yourself lol ...

[texasthunder]

Well this should get some blood pumping:

http://blog.redskins.com/2011/07/19/tents-at-redskins-park/

[ouvan59]

Five teams have installed an indoor practice facility in the last 5 years. Let's take a look and see how that has changed their fortunes:

New York Giants (2009) - Made the playoffs four straight seasons prior to facility with an average of 10.3 wins per season. Also won a Super Bowl. Since then, no playoffs, 9 win average.

Miami Dolphins (2007) - 6.5 wins per season after, 7.5 prior.

Seattle Seahawks (2008) - 5.3 wins after, 10.7 prior

New York Jets (2009) - 10 win after, 6.75 wins prior

Houston Texans (2008) - 7.7 wins after, 5.3 prior

Total: 38.5 wins after, 40.5 wins before

So two of the five have increased their fortunes since their facilities were built. It should be noted that both also picked up their starting QBs the year of their big record improvement.

[Atlanta Skins Fan]

Five teams have installed an indoor practice facility in the last 5 years. Let's take a look and see how that has changed their fortunes:

New York Giants (2009) - Made the playoffs four straight seasons prior to facility with an average of 10.3 wins per season. Also won a Super Bowl. Since then, no playoffs, 9 win average.

Miami Dolphins (2007) - 6.5 wins per season after, 7.5 prior.

Seattle Seahawks (2008) - 5.3 wins after, 10.7 prior

New York Jets (2009) - 10 win after, 6.75 wins prior

Houston Texans (2008) - 7.7 wins after, 5.3 prior

Total: 38.5 wins after, 40.5 wins before

So two of the five have increased their fortunes since their facilities were built. It should be noted that both also picked up their starting QBs the year of their big record improvement.

Seahawks already had an indoor facility (bubble). They moved to a bigger new HQ with better facilties, including full-field indoor practice field.

I believe the Giants are a similar upgrade situation, like the Seahawks, but have not confirmed this.

Jets are definitely an upgrade type from bubble.

Dolphins put in an inflatable, low-height bubble, which I've suggested is somewhat deficient based on the actions of teams dumping such bubbles for fixed structures.

It's hard to get a read on the recent changes, due to these factors and the small sample size. I think the more teams and more years included in the sample, the less random the variation will be.

[Reaper 21]

i think an indoor facility has to help, especially in a timing based offense like ours. The colts practice indoors and play indoors and Peyton Manning has made the most of it. The timing he has with his receivers is like none ever in nfl history. All year long he can work on timing routes without wind, rain, or anything. I think that it would defintily help him

[ouvan59]

Seahawks already had an indoor facility (bubble). They moved to a bigger new HQ with better facilties, including full-field indoor practice field.

I believe the Giants are a similar upgrade situation, like the Seahawks, but have not confirmed this.

Jets are definitely an upgrade type from bubble.

Dolphins put in an inflatable, low-height bubble, which I've suggested is somewhat deficient based on the actions of teams dumping such bubbles for fixed structures.

It's hard to get a read on the recent changes, due to these factors and the small sample size. I think the more teams and more years included in the sample, the less random the variation will be.

There are too many variables that go into NFL teams' success to quantify yet day after day you come up with a new self-fulfilling statistic to support your agenda. From what I can determine there is absolutely no correlation between winning and an indoor practice facility.

It would be interesting to see what these teams records are in December for outdoor teams however when the practice facility actually comes into play.

[CommDownMan]

One factor that I don't think was mentioned, is how athletes focus on training these days. Recovery has been a bigger factor in how training programs are built. Practicing in all types of conditions leads to longer recovery times.

How many days do teams loss players for 'flu-like' symptoms, hamstrings (cough **Kelly** cough) and other things that can happen more frequently with poor conditions? I won't say it the only factor, but I do think it could be a small part of why these facilities, at least appear to be beneficial. It probably doesn't hurt that these facilities also come with some state-of-the-art massage/recovery equipment.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

2010 teams who practiced outdoors and were not located in Florida or California, had the following records: 6-10 (Redskins), 6-10 (Cowboys), 5-11 (Cardinals), 4-12 (Bengals), 4-12 (Broncos), 2-14 (Panthers).

Why isn't Arizona included in this? They probably have better weather than the northern Cali bay area (49ers/Raiders), and Florida's rainy season is from June-September, which just happens to coincide with the entire offseason training camp lol...

[ouvan59]

2010 teams who practiced outdoors and were not located in Florida or California, had the following records: 6-10 (Redskins), 6-10 (Cowboys), 5-11 (Cardinals), 4-12 (Bengals), 4-12 (Broncos), 2-14 (Panthers).

l...

2009 Records of the same teams 4-12 Skins, 11-5 Cowboys, 10-6 Cardinals, 10-6 Bengals, 8-8 Broncos, 8-8 Panthers

Oops, there goes that theory. Or is this an odd year - even year thing where teams should practice outdoors one year and indoors the next.

[AKM311]

2009 Records of the same teams 4-12 Skins, 11-5 Cowboys, 10-6 Cardinals, 10-6 Bengals, 8-8 Broncos, 8-8 Panthers

Oops, there goes that theory. Or is this an odd year - even year thing where teams should practice outdoors one year and indoors the next.

LOL!! This just made me laugh hard. Especially that last line.

[Horatio]

Instead of winning, Snyder & Co. have been making money. Meanwhile, by failing to invest money in a world-class training facility, Snyder has ensured that the team would lose, or at least never win big. Why? Because in today's NFL, the single most important long-term investment an owner can make in a franchise is a top training facility, specifically one with a large, indoor practice field in a permanent structure. (Not merely a bubble.) Such a facility enables the team to conduct crisp practices for all 16 games and the playoffs, providing "Home Facilities Advantage" for all games.

That was some awesome analysis! But who needs an indoor practice facility when there's a Gold's Gym right down the road?

[Rocky52Mc]

I think that's typical, so made no special provision for this. I think most football teams prefer to practice outdoors except in extreme temperatures, rain / snow, high winds, lightning.

---------- Post added July-19th-2011 at 01:53 PM ----------

You're linking to Oldfan's concept. I don't accept that particular concept. Teams win for a variety of reasons. There are trends but not rules. One trend is a great QB. Another might be the ability to practice indoors in a good facility during inclement weather. It's possible to win without these things, but harder, generally.

I like the overall concept of an indoor practice facility due to a few major points:

1. Keep what you want in, and what you don't want out.

2. A sense of security in that no one is watching.

3. Weather can't effect practice, plays, players, injuries, what have you.

4. I like indoor fields.

[pjfootballer]

My biggest reason for them wanting an indoor practice facility is to get the timing and crispness of the offense and defense down. Weather effects practice. It's nice to practice in the elements, but watching our team over the last 20 years, we need all the good practices we can get. Practice makes perfect. Sometimes weather gets in the way and you need some indoor time.