Banking on Failure To Get A Higher Pick? Think Again!

Some folks on here seem to think that losing is the path to getting a better team, It will get Vinnie fired. It will make Zorn more 'emotional', It will get a higher draft pick.

While It's true that you pick higher with a worse record, I don't agree that it necessarily helps.

Does anyone remember this man...?

Jeff George

Height: 6-4 Weight: 214 Age: 41

Born: 12/8/1967 Indianapolis , IN

College: Illinois

Experience: 14 Seasons

He was the number one pick of the 1990 draft.

Chosen by the Colts. Played with seven teams!

Major attitude problem!

Here is a list of some very unmemorable first round picks.

Full article...

http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/sports/ordine/blog/2008/04/post_282.html

• Arizona: Steve Little, K, 1978 (No. 15). A rare first-rounder as a punter and kicker, Little hit just 40 percent of his field-goal tries. Shortly after he was cut by the then- St. Louis Cardinals, he was in a car accident that left him paralyzed. He died in 1999.

• Atlanta: Aundray Bruce, LB, 1988 (No. 1). A tippy-top draft selection, Bruce started well enough with 12 sacks in his first two seasons. But he regressed and spent the back end of his career as a backup with the Raiders.

• Ravens: Travis Taylor, WR, 2000 (No. 10). Actually, the Ravens have a stellar record with their first-rounders. Taylor had some OK years with the Ravens, but he just didn't live up to the Pro Bowl standard set by other first-round picks by the team.

• Buffalo: Al Cowlings, DE, 1970 (No. 5). Yes, that Al Cowlings. The Bills took him the year after they drafted his car-pool buddy, O.J. Simpson. "Bronco" Al played nine years with five teams and had zero starts.

• Carolina: Rae Carruth, WR, 1997 (No. 27). Carruth's infamy is not in a disappointing NFL career but in having orchestrated the murder of his pregnant girlfriend in 1999. He was sentenced to at least 18 years in prison.

• Chicago: Curtis Enis, RB, 1998 (No. 5). Enis was one of several highly rated but star-crossed Penn State running backs whose careers were derailed by injuries. Enis never played a full season in three years and gained fewer than 1,500 yards.

• Cincinnati: Ki-Jana Carter, RB, 1995 (No. 1). What I said about Enis goes double for Carter, another Nittany Lion. The top pick overall, he gained fewer than 1,200 yards in seven seasons with three teams.

• Cleveland: Mike Junkin, LB, 1987 (No. 5). I'm sure many Browns fans would vote for Tim Couch, but Junkin started just seven games in three seasons. The Browns also traded up 19 spots to get him giving Chip Banks to the Chargers.

• Dallas: Mike Sherrard, WR, 1986 (No. 18). Sherrard was injured so much he missed all or most of three seasons after his rookie year. His Job-like string of calamities included breaking his leg while running on the beach.

Click link for whole story...

Also, here is an article about how, few teams really want to pick #1 overall.

http://www.nfl.com/draft/story?id=09000d5d80fa1d95&template=with-video-with-comments&confirm=true

The movement is going to kill me... please have at it!

I have great life insurance! :hysterical:

I guess for some fans, if you eat crap sandwiches for years, you get used to it,expect it and eventually learn to love it.

You can have my serving.

Just re-emphasizes how important it is to have good player evaluation.

Which is why losing would be good, if it got rid of Vinny.

Like vomiting. An ordeal at the time, but it gets rid of what ails you.

I guess for some fans, if you eat crap sandwiches for years, you get used to it,expect it and eventually learn to love it.

You can have my serving.

Changing head coaches/GM's ever couple years is definitively not helping, so now you want more change?

Does anyone remember this man...?

Jeff George

He was the number one pick of the 1990 draft.

Chosen by the Colts. Played with seven teams!

Major attitude problem!

Here is a list of some very unmemorable first round picks.

And for everyone of those guys you have a Peyton Manning or SEAN TAYLOR...you can't just throw out some names from over the past 50 yrs like they sum up every player every year since the beginning of time...most of those guys had bust all over them and people didn't evaluate them because they were so enamored with them...like a shiny new christmas gift, that turns out was made for $1.37 and sold for $84.99 and breaks 12 hrs into your kids playing with it. I get your point, but your reasoning and backing for your argument sucks.

...

If you would like to respond to the contents of a particular post, simply quote the sentence or idea that you're commenting upon, not necessarily the entire post. It wastes space on the database and unnecessarily extends and clutters threads.

Changing head coaches/GM's ever couple years is definitively not helping, so now you want more change?

The only time that Vinny has not been involved with the Snyder owned Redskins as Director/VP of Player Personnel (the "GM"), was from the time Marty fired him in 2001 until Dan rehired him in 2002.

Doesn't look like there's been a lot of "change" in that position to me ... :doh:

The only time that Vinny has not been involved with the Snyder owned Redskins as Director/VP of Player Personnel (the "GM"), was from the time Marty fired him in 2001 until Dan rehired him in 2002.

Doesn't look like there's been a lot of "change" in that position to me ... :doh:

Your wrong. Snyder Bought the team with Charley Casserly as the GM. He fired him After the 1999 season.

...I get your point, but your reasoning and backing for your argument sucks.

In comparison to your very well thought out retort, yes! It is just horrible!

The point I was making Is that the NFL Draft is a crap shoot.

Also, that you cannot win just by picking higher in the draft. Look at Tampa Bay of the 80's, Look at the Skins of the 90's. How about Detroit in any decade you pull out of this OR last century?

There are more Important considerations than a good draft pick or "change just for the sake of change."

Put anyone you want in as GM (not what this thread is about anyway) you will not win until there is a proper structure of authority and that starts with Dan.

I hold firm to my argument that draft position is not a way to rebuild. Hard work, a fighting spirit and dedicated players go so much further in the grand scheme of things.

This is lost on the "fantasy football crowd" and completely over the heads of fans who have never been around or played the game.

Your wrong. Snyder Bought the team with Charley Casserly as the GM. He fired him After the 1999 season.

"You're" mistaken... Dan Snyder fired Casserly in June 1999. A few months after the 1999 draft in which we landed Champ Bailey and a bunch of future draft picks... we proceeded to make it to the 2nd round of the playoffs that year.

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/dec/28/yet-another-year-as-middle-men/

....then we hired Vinny...

"You're" mistaken... Dan Snyder fired Casserly in June 1999. A few months after the 1999 draft in which we landed Champ Bailey and a bunch of future draft picks... we proceeded to make it to the 2nd round of the playoffs that year.

Sorry, "you're" the one who is mistaken!

(but at least you're a very good speller!)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charley_Casserly

In 1999, Sports Illustrated, Pro Football Weekly, The Sporting News and USA Today named Casserly their NFL Executive of the Year at mid-season. On draft day in 1999, Casserly acquired all of the New Orleans Saints 1999 selections, plus their first and third-round picks in 2000 by swapping the Redskins' fifth selection in the first round for the Saints' 12th choice. He still managed to obtain the player that Washington wanted, selecting future Pro Bowl cornerback Champ Bailey.

Casserly's Redskins career ended after the 1999 season when he was fired by team owner Dan Snyder.[3]

The draft is really only one piece of the puzzle, as you indicated in your OP. We've seen that despite clear weaknesses, if final record is middling, things stay the same. I guess Snyder feels like if the team is okay, then something is going right. If it was a disastrous season, then perhaps he would have to re-evaluate what is happening around him. In addition, with poor talent evaluators, it doesn't make any difference where a team picks, they are more likely to pick up a dud. Again, this goes to the front office. You can't divorce the draft from the GM, they go hand-in-hand.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say "change for the sake of change," either. If you mean getting rid of young guys to bring in sexier names, then I completely agree that is an issue. However, I think one of this team's major problems is that it hangs on to unproductive guys too long. Portis hasn't been effective this year. It appears to me that he is missing easy cuts in order to run into the back of his linemen. Yeah, they aren't opening holes, but if a runner sees that is a problem, he's got to make something happen himself. Betts ran for over 100 against a really tough Run-D behind the same line that couldn't block the less talented defenses the 'Skins had seen earlier in the year. At what point do the coaches say, "Time for a change?"

The draft is really only one piece of the puzzle, as you indicated in your OP...

In addition, with poor talent evaluators, it doesn't make any difference where a team picks, they are more likely to pick up a dud. Again, this goes to the front office. You can't divorce the draft from the GM, they go hand-in-hand.

Actually, Vinnie has done a very good job with the draft picks. His latest find, Orakpo is tearing it up!

Sean Taylor, Rocky Macintosh, JJ, Horton, and a host of other picks that have worked out (and some that have not.)

Problem does not seem to be a lack of assessment skills concerning players, but a lack of consistency in the coaching staff and proper direction for the team.

So then, if the player assessment is adequate, why would a high draftpick NOT help the 'Skins?

I simply disagree with you that the 'Skins have drafted well, overall. Of course they've had picks who have worked out, but I feel like the majority of their drafts have been sub par.

Also, let's stop pretending that Vinnie somehow ran across Orakpo playing on a sandlot field in rural Idaho. The guy played at Texas and was a stud prospect. I feel like that is the kind of talent scouting most of us are capable of.

Your wrong. Snyder Bought the team with Charley Casserly as the GM. He fired him After the 1999 season.

Nonetheless, your (correct usage) correction of what I posted doesn't change the actual point I was making that there hasn't been, as you said, a lot of change at the GM position (which is what Cerrato is, for all intents and purposes).

A lot of HC changing yes. "GM" changing, no.

We've had just about a decade of Vinny, so there hasn't been a lot of change there. And just think about what we've given up, versus what we've gained, for many moves made during his tenure.

Edit: Oh and you've already established in another thread that you "don't like" me. So please don't feel compelled to respond.

all of you saying "we change too often" arent understanding what some of us want changed. we want vinny gone. how many years has vinny been here. 8? isnt that enough time to evaluate a body of work? i think it is, and id like a change at "GM".

zorn is a product of vinnys incompetence, and thats all. nice guy, not a head coach. we need to get a football guy in here and let him call the shots, then we can talk about continuity.

all of you saying "we change too often" arent understanding what some of us want changed. we want vinny gone. how many years has vinny been here. 8? isnt that enough time to evaluate a body of work? i think it is, and id like a change at "GM".

zorn is a product of vinnys incompetence, and thats all. nice guy, not a head coach. we need to get a football guy in here and let him call the shots, then we can talk about continuity.

Thanks BLC, but this is not a fire Vinnie thread. it's about jockeying for draft position by losing out as a way to make the team better. Sorry I helped the thread go off course.

Would like to hear what you have to add about the draft.

Nonetheless, your (correct usage) correction of what I posted doesn't change the actual point I was making that there hasn't been, as you said, a lot of change at the GM position (which is what Cerrato is, for all intents and purposes)...

A lot of HC changing yes. "GM" changing, no...

Edit: Oh and you've already established in another thread that you "don't like" me. So please don't feel compelled to respond.

Liking my fellow EX'ers is always subject to change.

As far as I can tell there is no established precedent for what constitutes a revolving door at GM, so I guess we just disagree.

Look at us 'mortal enemies' bonding over coffee and Charley Casserly! :hysterical:

Thanks BLC, but this is not a fire Vinnie thread. it's about jockeying for draft position by losing out as a way to make the team better. Sorry I helped the thread go off course.

Would like to hear what you have to add about the draft.

regarding the draft, i hope we end up with a top 10 pick. if that means losing some games in a lost season, then so be it. we need a QB and an LT. i think the QB is more important, but both positions are needed and needed now. if our new GM thinks bradford is worth the pick, then lets gamble and get it done. we can pick an LT in the 2nd round. i feel more comfortable with a 1st round QB than a 2nd rounder.

draft wise i just hope we spend it all on offense and maybe 1 project corner. we need an entire new offense, and i really hope that whoever we bring in as GM decides to blow up the offense and go for a massive youth movement.

and just because jeff george sucked doesnt mean you dont want a high draft pick. peyton manning was the #1 draft pick as well.

The point I was making Is that the NFL Draft is a crap shoot.

That explains:

Payton Manning - #1 over all - Superbowl MVP - currently leading division

Eli Manning - #1 over all - Superbowl MVP

Carson Palmer - #1 over all - currently leading division

And that Phillip Rivers guy he sucks too.

That's just off the top of my head.

While there is no sure thing, some players come damn close. And I can tell you what HASN'T worked for the redskins... Trying to find a bargain that slipped past the top picks. :doh:

Changing head coaches/GM's ever couple years is definitively not helping, so now you want more change?

GM is the only thing we HAVEN'T changed!

Through all the coaches, all the over-hyped FAs, through all the wasted draft picks...one this is constant: Vinny Cerrato.

Eff yes, I want more change!

That explains:

Payton Manning - #1 over all - Superbowl MVP - currently leading division

Eli Manning - #1 over all - Superbowl MVP

Carson Palmer - #1 over all - currently leading division

And that Phillip Rivers guy he sucks too.

That's just off the top of my head.

While there is no sure thing, some players come damn close. And I can tell you what HASN'T worked for the redskins... Trying to find a bargain that slipped past the top picks. :doh:

That would be five guys.

You forgot...

1988 Atlanta Aundray Bruce, LB, Auburn

1989 Dallas Troy Aikman, QB, UCLA

1990 Indianapolis Jeff George, QB, Illinois

1991 Dallas Russell Maryland, DT, Miami-FL

1992 Indianapolis Steve Emtman, DT, Washington

1993 New England Drew Bledsoe, QB, Washington State

1994 Cincinnati Dan Wilkinson, DT, Ohio State

1995 Cincinnati Ki-Jana Carter, RB, Penn State

1996 NY Jets Keyshawn Johnson, WR, USC

1997 St. Louis Orlando Pace, OT, Ohio State

1998 Indianapolis Peyton Manning, QB, Tennessee

1999 Cleveland Tim Couch, QB, Kentucky

2000 Cleveland Courtney Brown, DE, Penn State

2001 Atlanta Michael Vick, QB, Virginia Tech

2002 Houston David Carr, QB, Fresno State

2003 Cincinnati Carson Palmer, QB, USC

2004 San Diego Eli Manning, QB, Mississippi

2005 San Francisco Alex Smith, QB Utah

2006 Houston Mario Williams, DE North Carolina State

2007 Oakland JaMarcus Russell, QB LSU

Jury is still out on the last two.

Like I said "IT'S A CRAP SHOOT! :hysterical:

That would be five guys.

You forgot...

1988 Atlanta Aundray Bruce, LB, Auburn

1989 Dallas Troy Aikman, QB, UCLA

1990 Indianapolis Jeff George, QB, Illinois

1991 Dallas Russell Maryland, DT, Miami-FL

1992 Indianapolis Steve Emtman, DT, Washington

1993 New England Drew Bledsoe, QB, Washington State

1994 Cincinnati Dan Wilkinson, DT, Ohio State

1995 Cincinnati Ki-Jana Carter, RB, Penn State

1996 NY Jets Keyshawn Johnson, WR, USC

1997 St. Louis Orlando Pace, OT, Ohio State

1998 Indianapolis Peyton Manning, QB, Tennessee

1999 Cleveland Tim Couch, QB, Kentucky

2000 Cleveland Courtney Brown, DE, Penn State

2001 Atlanta Michael Vick, QB, Virginia Tech

2002 Houston David Carr, QB, Fresno State

2003 Cincinnati Carson Palmer, QB, USC

2004 San Diego Eli Manning, QB, Mississippi

2005 San Francisco Alex Smith, QB Utah

2006 Houston Mario Williams, DE North Carolina State

2007 Oakland JaMarcus Russell, QB LSU

Jury is still out on the last two.

Like I said "IT'S A CRAP SHOOT! :hysterical:

we wont have the #1 overall pick. we should however have a top 8-10 pick. you can find a bust at every single draft slot ever in the NFL, thats a meaningless point. if we have a smart football guy in place, we trust his decision and hope it works out, thats about all we can do.

we currently have an idiot in place making these decisions, two idiots if you count snyder.

Some folks on here seem to think that losing is the path to getting a better team, It will get Vinnie fired. It will make Zorn more 'emotional', It will get a higher draft pick.

While It's true that you pick higher with a worse record, I don't agree that it necessarily helps.

The movement is going to kill me... please have at it!

I have great life insurance! :hysterical:

You could have saved some time and just listed most of our own first round picks.

That would be five guys.

You forgot...

1988 Atlanta Aundray Bruce, LB, Auburn

1989 Dallas Troy Aikman, QB, UCLA

1990 Indianapolis Jeff George, QB, Illinois

1991 Dallas Russell Maryland, DT, Miami-FL

1992 Indianapolis Steve Emtman, DT, Washington

1993 New England Drew Bledsoe, QB, Washington State

1994 Cincinnati Dan Wilkinson, DT, Ohio State

1995 Cincinnati Ki-Jana Carter, RB, Penn State

1996 NY Jets Keyshawn Johnson, WR, USC

1997 St. Louis Orlando Pace, OT, Ohio State

1998 Indianapolis Peyton Manning, QB, Tennessee

1999 Cleveland Tim Couch, QB, Kentucky

2000 Cleveland Courtney Brown, DE, Penn State

2001 Atlanta Michael Vick, QB, Virginia Tech

2002 Houston David Carr, QB, Fresno State

2003 Cincinnati Carson Palmer, QB, USC

2004 San Diego Eli Manning, QB, Mississippi

2005 San Francisco Alex Smith, QB Utah

2006 Houston Mario Williams, DE North Carolina State

2007 Oakland JaMarcus Russell, QB LSU

Jury is still out on the last two.

Like I said "IT'S A CRAP SHOOT! :hysterical:

It's like that with EVERY pick. We need a competent front office before we can talk about draft picks...I want losses to force major philosophical change.