I like Danny and Cerrato--kinda

Im in management and from a management pov what they have been doing is not illogical. Theyve made mistakes from inexperience (dieon and the overpaid old guys) but they have turned around their management philosophy to the draft and buy getting proven skill players in the NFL that are young. Carlos is much older than DHall and Hall has beeb to 2 pro bowls. Dockery is much younger. They were ofeereing up the farm for a 25 yr old probowl qb who hrew for 4000 yards. That doesnt sound wreckless.

I think but proper mixing drafting with smart FA moves will work out. Danny has drafted pretty well. His FA hits have been there and it certainly looks like AH and Hall are the goods.

Where I think DA needs to get better at is negotiating with teams. I am not against the Miami acquisition for Taylor. Our DL went down on snap one and there is usually not an all-pro replacement sitiing around. He could have been had for less, but Danny will pay up to get it sooner. While I like his aggressiveness, he does need to strategically work these deals. There are about 1000000 buys-side WS traders out of work who could set up the trade better. I actually know a guy if you PM me.

As for Cutler...I think we had to be on this trade. If anyone else in the NFL wanted JC, we would have come down with him. Clearly JC is not the answer. So stregically, Danny needs to be looking to acquire first rounders next year. Bradford is the next stud, and we need to pile up some picks next year to help with a move up.

How is this go down? If Crabtree falls to us. Giants, Seattle, and Browns and Raiders would all be interested in getting him. Trade our 13th pick to Seattle Raidsers or Browns for their 2nd this year, their 5th this year and their first next year.

The next option is that Freeman will come off the board about where we will. There rare too many teams that will want to move up from 17-19 to get him. There are too many teams looking to get the last QB worthy this draft. Its a posibility that the Jets would offer a second this year and a first next year or more.

Basically...we need to stock as many first and seconds next year to get a real smart quick QB---one we havent had in a very long time.

We lose a top pick here in the first, but we position ourselves for a change of the #1 Overall pick next years and a chance at Bradford.

We want draft picks this year for sure. But with JC playing him out of town, being in position next year to get Bradford may set this team back to its winning ways.

I agree with a lot of what you're saying here, but you have to know that Vinny and Danny are the whipping boys of the most vocal posters here. It's simply irrational, and they could do no good in their eyes... so be prepared to see this thread turn into a smorgasbord of hate.

But I must say I disagree with your assessment of Jason Campbell. I don't think anything is "clear" in regards to him, and I have trouble believing we're trying to get a QB in next years draft.

The reason they are bad at business: They reward guys who have never done anything for them and shun guys who do more than they were ever asked to do. A smart businessman knows how to value his home grown guys. A smart businessman doesn't insist on getting Cutler even though all of his coaches are opposed to it. Do you understand how ridiculous that whole circus was? We were told all of last offseason to be patient with Campbell in this new system. Our owner is worse at listening to that than the fans are.

EDIT: And that's not even including the ridiculous moves they've done to shun other core Redskins. These are guys we should have valued but didn't. Instead, we picked up high priced replacements who underperformed.

I am not as down on Vinny and Danny as others are on the board, but am not high on them either. To me they are a mixed bag. for the most part, I think they've done well with FA. Everyone talks about the misses but think of the hits:

Shawn Springs, Marcus Washington, Randy Thomas, London Fletcher, C. Griffin, Casey Rabach, Philip Daniels.

They have been at least OK in the draft, especially in the early rounds. In the later rounds they've found: Montgomry, Blades, Golston, K. Moore, Chris Horton.

My issue with them is getting fleeced in trades where they have given up draft picks. For a business guy, Snyder strikes me strangely like the overeager kid in the candy store when he wants something, he is willing to give away the store for it. Giving up a 3rd and 4th for Duckett, ditto for Lloyd. A third for Brunnel, throwing in a 2nd rounder for Portis even though they were already giving the Broncos the best corner in the NFL.

With Danny and Vinny its all about winning now, and next year I am gathering they presume will take care of itself. Unfortunately, the rest of the division doesn't feel the same way, they stockpile picks. Jerry Jones has some similaries to Danny but one way they are different is Jerry seems to LOVE the draft.

Even this year where Dallas doesn't have a first, they have double the picks the Skins have overall. So this year again, our division rivals are going to be able to get younger and at the very least add more depth than we have.

IMO his strength as an owner is he has a whatever it takes philosophy to succeed and is not shy about using his cash. Weakness: his fellow owners are smarter or more disciplined negotiators whether it involves getting good value in a trade or when it comes to salary. Also, if you use a chess analogy, he's IMO thinking about the next move not so much 3 or 4 moves ahead.

Shawn Springs, Marcus Washington, Randy Thomas, London Fletcher, C. Griffin, Casey Rabach, Philip Daniels.

I always scratch my head at arguments like this.

Given the NFL is a team sport, shouldn't we talk about team results? Some might call 2 playoff appearances under Gibbs progress. Problem is we weren't contenders.

The fact is we never have any studs playing in a contract year, playing for a contract to stay with the skins. Everyone we bring in has gotten paid and is comfortable.

From a draft perspective of all the low rounders you mentioned, Chris Horton is the only one another team might covet. The others are backups.

I just wish we could have 2 consecutive seasons with all of our draft picks, draft players, bring in a free agent or two, and see if we can start to build a team that is young and looks like it has a promising future. What we have now is a team full of holes, with old lines, and questions abound.

Out of the 100's of players that have rolled through here the last 5 or so years, it's pretty sad when we can count on two hands the number of studs other teams might really want.

I think for my own peice of mind I need to clear up a few things that I feel about the Danny and Igor! My opinion is of there football operating skills (or lack of) only!I know Dan Snyder is a caring man and his actions have proven that so please understand my opinions of him are strickly football realted .He 's playing fantasy football with the Skins...........him and Vinny yeah I know he owns ..PART of the team but that team is public domain,a team I grew up with and know of a certian way .......and this guy comes in and wrecks it.Yes wrecks it,him and Vinny..........the man does not learn from his mistakes ,we nede a football man as a GM don't talk to me about this or that ..NO, get a GM and turn things over to him ...then and only then will I believe he is trying !:saber:

P.S. ...fire IGOR ...at least we will think he's trying.:cool2:

I always scratch my head at arguments like this.

Given the NFL is a team sport, shouldn't we talk about team results? Some might call 2 playoff appearances under Gibbs progress. Problem is we weren't contenders.

.

Best post of the day!

I agree with a lot of what you're saying here, but you have to know that Vinny and Danny are the whipping boys of the most vocal posters here. It's simply irrational, and they could do no good in their eyes... so be prepared to see this thread turn into a smorgasbord of hate.

But I must say I disagree with your assessment of Jason Campbell. I don't think anything is "clear" in regards to him, and I have trouble believing we're trying to get a QB in next years draft.

Bolded QFT, no doubt about it. The lynchmob around here sucks.

As for the 2nd part I am in agreement as well. Getting more draft picks, this year and next, is without a doubt a priority. Im sure V&D are looking at potential QB selections next year, its their job and they have to. Maybe not seriously looking but I bet if you asked Vinny about the top 5 QB's in college this year, he has seen film. I do think they still have hope Campbell will be the guy.

I'm in management and from a management pov what they have been doing is not illogical. They've made mistakes from inexperience (dieon(SP) and the overpaid old guys) but they have turned around their management philosophy to the draft and buy(SP) getting proven skill players in the NFL that are young....

I certainly hope you aren't writing your own business memos. Seriously, the typos and mistakes made it very hard to understand your points.

I think that Danny and Vinny have played this draft exactly right. By expressing interest in QB Jay Cutler, Mark Sanchez, and even Byron Leftwich, our FO has teams scratching their heads as to what we will do. I believe that Sanchez may very well be there by the time we pick. The interest we have shown will create a bidding war for our pick. We may get several later round picks - ideally two seconds and a third - as well as a later first round pick for our slot. We have all the leverage. Will we pick up Sanchez or not? :whoknows:

However, I would be against giving our first round pick this year for a first round pick next year at the expense of later picks this year. It's not often you have a draft that is this deep along both sides of the trenches. We have to upgrade our o-line for sure, so we'll need more picks later this year to pick up a few o-linemen and d-linemen.

:logo:

I always scratch my head at arguments like this.

Given the NFL is a team sport, shouldn't we talk about team results? Some might call 2 playoff appearances under Gibbs progress. Problem is we weren't contenders.

The fact is we never have any studs playing in a contract year, playing for a contract to stay with the skins. Everyone we bring in has gotten paid and is comfortable.

While I agree with your overall assessment (we need more picks) your doom and gloom perspective is blatantly obvious.

Derrick Dockery, DHall, Carlos Rogers, Jason Campbell....just off the top. All guys who are playing or have played in contract years to prove themselves.

While I agree with your overall assessment (we need more picks) your doom and gloom perspective is blatantly obvious.

Derrick Dockery, DHall, Carlos Rogers, Jason Campbell....just off the top. All guys who are playing or have played in contract years to prove themselves.

???

Not doom and gloom.

Derrick Dockery - we let him go. DHall? A half of a season? What contract years have Rogers and Campbell played in.

I think you missed the concept. While we might have players who play in contract years here in there, in general we don't. In addition, even if they are here the KNOW that the team wont resign them. They know the team is always looking outside. Thats why guys like pierce and dockery get away. We had a stud linebacker name pierce under our nose, yet we look to other teams players, players who don't know our sustem.

Danny is the man. Yes he overpays but it ain't my money. At least we do have a shot at the best in FA every year. He seems to know how to get around the cap also.

A lot of other teams are cheap and won't pay to keep/get guys. They made mistakes in the past (Deion,B.Smith,J.Taylor) but i think he's learned. We need picks from past mistakes and the Cutler thing was a no-brainer. Dude could be the best.

Giving up a 3rd and 4th for Duckett, ditto for Lloyd.

Oh hell-no, say that **** ain't so.

Im in management and from a management pov what they have been doing is not illogical. Theyve made mistakes from inexperience (dieon and the overpaid old guys) but they have turned around their management philosophy to the draft and buy getting proven skill players in the NFL that are young.

Just a few questions, out of curiousity:

1. What type of business are you a manager in?

2. What were you drinking when you wrote this thread?

3. Crabtree dropping to 13? What were you drinking again?

you might wanna take a look into a grammar class to go along with that management course

I always scratch my head at arguments like this. Given the NFL is a team sport, shouldn't we talk about team results? Some might call 2 playoff appearances under Gibbs progress. Problem is we weren't contenders.

The fact is we never have any studs playing in a contract year, playing for a contract to stay with the skins. Everyone we bring in has gotten paid and is comfortable.

From a draft perspective of all the low rounders you mentioned, Chris Horton is the only one another team might covet. The others are backups.

I just wish we could have 2 consecutive seasons with all of our draft picks, draft players, bring in a free agent or two, and see if we can start to build a team that is young and looks like it has a promising future.

If you read my post completely, you notice that I said IMO Vinny and Danny are a mixed bag. Not good, not bad, all right, so so. More of what I said was criticism as opposed to praise but you focused on the good stuff I said about them.

You go on to say they made the playoffs twice under Gibbs but weren't a contender. OK but if anything your response backs up my point as opposed to refutes it. I didn't say they put together a great team, I imply they are so so, and yeah I think that statement very much reflects their record and plays into your team sport statement.

Most of the FA I mentioned were on defense, the defense has been top 10, four out of five seasons. Yes I do think for that time they are stronger thanks to the FA acquistions they made, and no I don't think Archuleta wipes out all those moves, just about every team makes some bad choices. IMO you are looking to get most of them right not all of them.

When you look at what they have done on offense IMO they have made numerous bad moves: Lloyd, Patten, Randle El, overpaying for Brunnel and Portis. And the jury is still out on Campbell but he clearly hasn't shown to be the answer yet. You can say the same about the rookie WR's. They have so far struck out on the O lineman they have drafted in recent years in the later rounds, etc.

So IMO they have a pretty good defense and have had a below average offense for quite some time now. Do I think Vinny and Danny are the dumbest people on the planet like some do on this board, nope. Do I think every move they have made is idiotic. No,I don't. I think if anybody goes through transaction by transaction they couldn't make that case -- like darn that dumb Vinny had to sign that bum London Fletcher.

IMO they have had some hits some misses and it averages out to so so. And yeah I think so so sums up the Redskins teams in recent times very well.

Turner/Robiskie were 18-14

Marty was 8-8

Spurrier was 12-18

Gibbs was 30-34

Zorn is 8-8

These head coaches, and their assistants, have brought different schemes, experience, and styles.

The roster has turned over almost constantly.

Snyderrato (except the one year Vinny worked for ESPN, having been fired by Marty and not hired by any other NFL team) is the one constant.

The pattern of mediocrity we've endured is not acceptable to me.

And I don't see how one could blame any person (s) other than Snyderrato.

Do I think every move they have made is idiotic. No,I don't. I think if anybody goes through transaction by transaction they couldn't make that case -- like darn that dumb Vinny had to sign that bum London Fletcher.

It's not about who you sign. It's about what is your plan to build a team. It's obvious there is no plan. That makes every move idiotic. Until they have a plan and stop rushing out and patching last years problems, or problems du jour, they will always be deserving of blame.

The fact that they needed to sign London Fletcher is what makes the move idiotic. Had they signed there own, the need for Fletcher wouldn't exist.

It's not about who you sign. It's about what is your plan to build a team. It's obvious there is no plan. That makes every move idiotic. Until they have a plan and stop rushing out and patching last years problems, or problems du jour, they will always be deserving of blame.

The fact that they needed to sign London Fletcher is what makes the move idiotic. Had they signed there own, the need for Fletcher wouldn't exist.

Sure, but how is this a response to my point about Cerrato and Snyder. My original post which you responded to criticized them for being short sighted, trading away too many draft picks, and I used a chess analogy saying that they seem to be always looking at the next move as opposed to 3 or 4 moves down the road.

So if anything you are making my point again, and I don't get what we are arguing. Unless you are trying to make the point that everything they've done is bad or judging them as medicore is too generous?

Sure, but how is this a response to my point about Cerrato and Snyder. My original post which you responded to criticized them for being short sighted, trading away too many draft picks, and I used a chess analogy saying that they seem to be always looking at the next move as opposed to 3 or 4 moves down the road.

So if anything you are making my point again, and I don't get what we are arguing. Unless you are trying to make the point that everything they've done is bad or judging them as medicore is too generous?

I think we are probably saying the same thing in different ways.

My argument is, I don't give them credit for bringing in a good free agent when their plan is flawed. What good is a stud free agent if they aren't put in a winning situation? And at what point do we stop giving them credit for bringing in a FA that is a result of them not doing what they should do, re-sign their home grown talent.

I think we are probably saying the same thing in different ways.

My argument is, I don't give them credit for bringing in a good free agent when their plan is flawed. What good is a stud free agent if they aren't put in a winning situation? And at what point do we stop giving them credit for bringing in a FA that is a result of them not doing what they should do, re-sign their home grown talent.

Going by your posts, your main point if I am getting it is that when they have good signings it doesn't mean much to the overall drill since it doesn't all add up to being a great team?

If so, I get where you are coming from, but I don't completely agree. I'd rather get to the playoffs sometimes and or be 8-8 then lets say be the Detroit Lions and chronically at the bottom of the division. Of course, I'd rather they were a heck of a lot better at making decisions and they were a perennial contender or Superbowl team.

To the point about them resigning their home grown talent, IMO they've made mistakes with Antonio Pierce, Ryan Clark (though he was signed initially by the Giants), maybe D. Evans (though he was signed intially by the Cowboys). Dockery was offered an insane amount of money and I thought it was wise to let him go at the time.

By and large I don't see them letting homegrown players go as the big problem -- IMO its not developing enough of their own players, which was one of your earlier points becuase they trade away too many draft picks.

It's just my opinion, but I am responding in part to those that give the FO a big fat F for their personnel moves. I don't agree. But at the same time I don't think they've been hot either. I give them a big fat C. And based off of that an 8-8 team, who sometimes wins 10, sometimes wins 6 but by and large hovers around 8 wins, sounds about right.

I like Danny too.

We can all pretend that he doesn't care about the Skins one bit and is only about the money, but if you feel that way your misinformed.

He is a die hard fan through and through. He does the things he does because he wants us to succeed. Jeffrey Lurie is an owner who's all about making money. Snyder is just a very headstrong owner.

];6310723']He is a die hard fan through and through. He does the things he does because he wants us to succeed. Jeffrey Lurie is an owner who's all about making money. Snyder is just a very headstrong owner.

That's not a very compelling defense of Snyder.

I'm not someone who constantly questions his intentions, but I am not satisfied with the results.

This isn't a piano recital with a bunch of eight year olds, this is the NFL. Results are the only thing that matters.

And Lurie's results are significantly superior to Snyder's.

The fact is we never have any studs playing in a contract year, playing for a contract to stay with the skins. Everyone we bring in has gotten paid and is comfortable.

I just wish we could have 2 consecutive seasons with all of our draft picks, draft players, bring in a free agent or two, and see if we can start to build a team that is young and looks like it has a promising future. What we have now is a team full of holes, with old lines, and questions abound.

Out of the 100's of players that have rolled through here the last 5 or so years, it's pretty sad when we can count on two hands the number of studs other teams might really want.

Chip I edited some of your stuff but what you wrote above is pretty much accurate. Good point about why pay other teams players for what they have already accomplished?

I agree that we need to get that kind of production from our own players. We saw the Dana Sutbblefield mistake and now we are all worried that FAT ALBERT may be a repeat of history.

While at the same time, the Skins are quick with the axe on players like Antonio Pierce and Ryan Clark who are good enough to go on and start on Superbowl teams. Go figure. Its just called bad management and poor decision making.

Dockery is a classic example of how we chose NOT to pay him in his 4th year and then we lost him, but ended up overpaying by making that mistake.

Isn't it time to sign Monty and Golston to long term deals before we repeat the Dockery mistake with them?

And draft Ray Maualuga, and keep Rocky, and we won't have to sign a Fletcher or Marcus Washignton from somebody elses team next time.

???

Not doom and gloom.

Derrick Dockery - we let him go. DHall? A half of a season? What contract years have Rogers and Campbell played in.

I think you missed the concept. While we might have players who play in contract years here in there, in general we don't. In addition, even if they are here the KNOW that the team wont resign them. They know the team is always looking outside. Thats why guys like pierce and dockery get away. We had a stud linebacker name pierce under our nose, yet we look to other teams players, players who don't know our sustem.

Pierce was way overrated and gave way to London Fletcher who is 10x the MLB Pierce was, is, or ever will be. It was Pierce who was exposed by the Eagles in that playoff game, time after time. Heck he lost the game for them. THE most overrated LB in the league.

Remember, we chose not to pay Pierce for Lemar Marshall, another guy on our roster who we felt we could get the same play out of for less. And we did for one year, people forget about that. The Pierce situation DISproves your point.

We chose not to pay Dockery because the Bills decided to OVERpay him. And look where he is now? Right on our roster at half the price.

Here is your quote:

The fact is we never have any studs playing in a contract year, playing for a contract to stay with the skins.

I just named a number of them. Campbell and Rogers are in contract years right now.

Yes, we need to hold onto our draft picks more and we need to pay more attn to up and comers on our roster vs everyone elses. However the statement that we "never" do that is 100% incorrect.