Are you opposed to abortion, welfare, and schip?

Just curious.

Do you see them tied together or as completely separate issues?

No, yes, yes.

I look at each as individual concerns.

Abortion: I dont believe the Federal government should have jurisdiction at all on the subject and that it should be a state concern exclusively (like murder is). I am personally 100% against all abortions as I consider the unboarn as individuals who have the exact same rights as you and I.

Welfare: Believe it or not, I am not totally against welfare. What I rail against is the welfare system and the fraud, misuse, and waste that comes with it. I believe that welfare should be reserved for the truly helpless and that if someone needs a very temporary boost to get though a difficult patch in their lives then they should receive that benefit. I think that strict time horizons should be mandated for any beyond the handicapped, elderly or children.

SCHIP: I think that it is 100% uneeded and that kids whos parents could and should have gotten their own insurance should be rersponsible for paying the bills. medicaid covers the children of the poor already, why would we need an expanded prohram of waste on top of it? Hawaii's schip program caused massive problems yet oor "leaders: chose to ignore that fact and push the beast through anyway. It was a gpood way to gain votes from the masses in the spiroit of faux compassion.

I don't know. I see them as highly interactive. Unwanted pregnancies lead to welfare. Poverty leads to the need for medical support. Welfare abuse can lead to additional pregnancies, etc.

Sure, those aren't the only reasons why someone lands on welfare or why all people get an abortion and not all people who get an abortion are poor, but it seems to me that there is a cycle of cause and effect. That each feeds on the other to a degree.

I don't know. I see them as highly interactive. Unwanted pregnancies lead to welfare. Poverty leads to the need for medical support. Welfare abuse can lead to additional pregnancies, etc.

Sure, those aren't the only reasons why someone lands on welfare or why all people get an abortion and not all people who get an abortion are poor, but it seems to me that there is a cycle of cause and effect. That each feeds on the other to a degree.

I think it may be more of a case of correlation rather than causation. Too many additional factors with each to tie them together very tightly. (IMHO):2cents:

Abortion...No... I am opposed to the taking of life w/o a compelling reason.

There are of course instances where rights to life must be balanced.

I am opposed to tax payer subsidies for it.

Welfare ...Yes. in it's present form

There is certainly a need for a humanitarian safety net,and workfare programs that help to get people to be productive parts of society.

schip...Yes

I think establishing a network of free/low cost clinics nationwide would do better...and provide basic care

The idea someone making $60 k a yr needs my tax money to buy ins is ridiculous,as is the level of coverage.

No, depends, and no

first one is mostly about the liberty of the mother over her own body

the second depends on restrictions

third is important, may prevent much more costly problems down the line

I'll agree that there are other factors involved, but I think the inclination to see them as separate more of a cognitive defense strategy than anything else.

Some don't want to see people abort/kill babies, but are alos opposed to mechanisms to help/support/raise the baby that they don't want aborted and simultaneously are opposed to providing health support which feeds into desparation, promoting a sense of hopelessness and anger which leads to drug abuse, violence, etc which takes us back to the beginning of the dance and it repeats on and on.

Mind you, clearly, the structure we have isn't working either because there are too many unwanted pregnancies, too much anger, dispair, violence, and abuse, but that may be another thread. (Then again, if we could solve the problem in this thread think what that could mean!)

I think it may be more of a case of correlation rather than causation. Too many additional factors with each to tie them together very tightly. (IMHO):2cents:

There is a very strong case to be made for the negative correlation between abortion and crime.

Read it in a book called Freakonomics. It was very compelling. Fact is unwanted pregnancies often lead to unwanted babies which lead to uncared for babies which grow up to be uncared for teenagers etc.

There is a very strong case to be made for the negative correlation between abortion and crime.

Read it in a book called Freakonomics. It was very compelling. Fact is unwanted pregnancies often lead to unwanted babies which lead to uncared for babies which grow up to be uncared for teenagers etc.

I read that in Freaknomics and honestly think its crap

We may as well start walking through the ghetto and shooting babies then

Or just give out pregnancy licenses to those deemed worthy enough to care for a child

It was one hell of an interesting argument though

There is a very strong case to be made for the negative correlation between abortion and crime.

Read it in a book called Freakonomics. It was very compelling. Fact is unwanted pregnancies often lead to unwanted babies which lead to uncared for babies which grow up to be uncared for teenagers etc.

I dont know, man. I work heavilly in statistical analysis (I actually teach it to executives). I honestly have very little trust for correlation studies of 2 factors alone. Too many other influences for my personal trust in what relationships the data shows. Dont take that as an outright rejection because I certainly have seen where a true relationship is validated, but lets just say I have misgivings.:2cents:

I read that in Freaknomics and honestly think its crap

We may as well start walking through the ghetto and shooting babies then

Or just give out pregnancy licenses to those deemed worthy enough to care for a child

It was one hell of an interesting argument though

why is it crap?

No one is forcing anyone to have an abortion, and no one is going to go around killing babies in ghettos. No need to get theatrical.

Abortion: Depends on the situation. If its a rape victim that is trying to get an abortion then yes or if it involves the health of the mom or child. Other then those situations I would be against it.

Welfare: I believe that some people abuse the system. I see welfare as an oppurtunity for people that were laid off to get back on there feet and find a job. Some people would much rather be on welfare all their lives then go out and get a job or try to get an education. There should be a time limit on how long someone should be on welfare.

SCHIP: I guess I'm indifferent about it

I look at each as individual concerns.

Abortion: I dont believe the Federal government should have jurisdiction at all on the subject and that it should be a state concern exclusively (like murder is). I am personally 100% against all abortions as I consider the unboarn as individuals who have the exact same rights as you and I.

Welfare: Believe it or not, I am not totally against welfare. What I rail against is the welfare system and the fraud, misuse, and waste that comes with it. I believe that welfare should be reserved for the truly helpless and that if someone needs a very temporary boost to get though a difficult patch in their lives then they should receive that benefit. I think that strict time horizons should be mandated for any beyond the handicapped, elderly or children.

SCHIP: I think that it is 100% uneeded and that kids whos parents could and should have gotten their own insurance should be rersponsible for paying the bills. medicaid covers the children of the poor already, why would we need an expanded program of waste on top of it? Hawaii's schip program caused massive problems yet our "leaders: chose to ignore that fact and push the beast through anyway. It was a good way to gain votes from the masses in the spirit of faux compassion.

+1

I couldn't have said it better.

why is it crap?

Its such a crazy correlation for one. Freaknomics, while a fascinating book that I really enjoyed put two separate events together and tied them together

Why else did crime go down? Maybe better access to education for the poor in the 90s because of pell grant increases.

Or more people in the ghetto started to go to church.

The rise of the internet gave something for people to do.

To say that we were aborting babies and crime went down is just as absurd of an argument as any that I made

I dont know, man. I work heavilly in statistical analysis (I actually teach it to executives). I honestly have very little trust for correlation studies of 2 factors alone. Too many other influences for my personal trust in what relationships the data shows. Dont take that as an outright rejection because I certainly have seen where a true relationship is validated, but lets just say I have misgivings.:2cents:

it's quiet possible, if you can find the chapter on the internet or have to time to read it look it up.

Its such a crazy correlation for one. Freaknomics, while a fascinating book that I really enjoyed put two separate events together and tied them together

Why else did crime go down? Maybe better access to education for the poor in the 90s because of pell grant increases.

Or more people in the ghetto started to go to church.

The rise of the internet gave something for people to do.

To say that we were aborting babies and crime went down is just as absurd of an argument as any that I made

well I wouldn't say absurd since that point had evidence and none of yours do

not saying it's false but yeah there could be other factors, but correlation is there, and the mechanism makes sense. No one said the answers have to be intuitive... cause then why would we even do research at all?

it's quiet possible, if you can find the chapter on the internet or have to time to read it look it up.

I'll do that! I've heard of the book before and never got around to reading it.

+1

I couldn't have said it better.

Thank You!

The chapter is based on an article they published in 2001 in the quarterly journal of economics. That paper was criticized and they issued some rebuttals afterwards.

"The Impact of Legalized Abortion on Crime" by Donohue and Levitt

No, but limited roles in all three.

Abortion- personally, I am against abortion, but I also feel there are several factors involved. Being male, I don't think I should have the final decision, a woman has to make that final decision based on factors in her life. Can adequate care be provided to that child? Are the parents mature enough? Are there any health factors? Way to many variables, but to surmise, I oppose abortion but the final decision is not really mine.

Welfare- I believe there is a place for a safety net, but it's been mismanaged. It's just my opinion, but I think that if you become a recipient for welfare, then you should have to enter into a contract to come off the welfare roles in a timely manner. If job training, education, child care, food stamps and rental assistance are required, then benchmarks should be made and met on both parties. If you receive assistance, you must perform and get yourself off public assistance.

SCHIP- no opinion really.

There is a very strong case to be made for the negative correlation between abortion and crime.

Read it in a book called Freakonomics. It was very compelling. Fact is unwanted pregnancies often lead to unwanted babies which lead to uncared for babies which grow up to be uncared for teenagers etc.

Haven't 90% of pregnancies been 'accidental' throughout history?

THere should be no rise or fall based on income or planning as for the last 200 years its been the same 90% poor and 10% rich.

Did i miss where things changed in having children? Abortions have "helped" crime though its more rampant than ever and the jails are more full than any other country. okay.

When it comes to welfare: Spend the money to Clean it up so its less fraudulent and i'm down with it.

The Insurance thing: They just spent 90 billion on Medicaid? almost 2 billion per state.. We should have free insurance at this point.

Abortions- Yes. There should be two for one specials. Too many ******* parents raising ******* children.

Welfare- Yes. Some people make a career out of it, but there are hard working people that get screwed by corporate America who need it to get by temporarily.

SCHIP- No. Why should my tax dollars pay for someone else's kid's health insurance when I don't have health insurance. If everyone gets health insurance, I'm ok with it. If it's just kids, that are getting a free education from my tax dollar, no.

Haven't 90% of pregnancies been 'accidental' throughout history?

THere should be no rise or fall based on income or planning as for the last 200 years its been the same 90% poor and 10% rich.

Did i miss where things changed in having children? Abortions have "helped" crime though its more rampant than ever and the jails are more full than any other country. okay.

well the point is that violent crime DID drop, that's not the question. The question is what caused it