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No, LD, I follow the philosophy that targeting innocent people with homocide bombings is wrong, and fighting the people that do that is right. It is quite sad you can't draw the same conclusion in your world of gray.

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Art I want to make this clear I find the acts of sucide bombers to be disguisting. I understand Israel point that they have a right o defend themselves. I find no fault in that. I just find it rather ironic how palenstines were put in concentration camps. One could argue that that the Israels had nothing to do with it. YOu could have made the argument the avg german had nothing to do with the concentration camps in ww2. The fact of the matter is they sat on their hands and let it happen. Its hard to symptize with the palenstine cause when they have a ruler like Arafat and commits acts of terror. I also find it hard to symptize with Israel because they have entered Palenstine refugee camps and killied women and children. You like to make the argument that what Palenstine is doing is acts of terrorism and what Israel is doing is defending themselves. Israel used acts of terror to establish Israel. Palenstines are using acts of terror to one day have a state of their own. I like to call our founding fathers freedom figthers, because to us they were. The British called them terrorists. You could make the same argument that what our founding fathers were doing was acts of terrorism and what the British was doing was protecting their interests and their land. The reaso our founding fathers fought was they wanted a state of their own and they tought the British had no right to tell them to run their land and what laws to follow. You like to call the Palesntine cause a cause of terrorism I like to call it a act of war.

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Israel doesn't have concentration camps. The refugee camps you speak of are formed by the refugees themselves, and are not guarded. Israel went in to these camps because from them, the terrorists were launched and the women and children in them knew it and didn't help stop it, so, they died and they probably should have died sooner so those camps wouldn't be used for that.

It's not hard to side with Israel, which has continually been attacked and harassed by the nations in the region. While it is true Jewish settlers committed acts of terrorism in the fight to establish the Jewish state of Israel, that doesn't have any real bearing on what's happening now, nearly 60 years later. The U.S. once had slaves and that doesn't mean we can't now condemn aparthied in South Africa.

Palestine is not a nation and it never has been. Unlike our fight for independence, we fought the armed forces of England, and the lynchings and crimes conducted by the Whigs and Tories against one another doesn't change the fact that we faced the military and won. Palestinians have the capacity to wage war. They simply have chosen not to. They have selected the path of crimes against humanity and terrorism. And for this, the world should leap to the aid of Israel.

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1First off in the 40s and 50s terrorism included targeting officers and that is what the isaraelis did they did NOT target civilians except in a few isolated instances!

The Arabs themselves are responsible for the camps and the shabby treatment of the refugees!and would you please referrence something so i can read about these so called israeli massacres!

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A couple of months ago, Israel reversed a standing policy of not entering refugee camps due to the high number of casualties by entering the camps and causing a high number. LD isn't making it up and he isn't really saying anything that isn't completely understandable on the part of Israel. Israel found bombs, bomb-making equipment, guns, explosives, and rounded up hundreds of wanted men in their raids. Obviously when entering an area that heavily populated, you are bound to do some damage that is not intended, even if understood that it will happen.

But, no one would honestly argue that Isreal was wrong to root out the terrorists living and launching safely in these camps. Most would agree it is amazing they waited as long as they did.

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Twenty years from now we might look back it at this in a totally different manner. If we go back in time, 20 years or so, Many though South Africans who were against the system of Arpatheid were terrorists. For a long time Nelson Mendela was considered a terrorist. Its funny how your perception of people can change so quickly.

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I'd recommend you be quiet before you further belittle yourself by stating things like there's a time anywhere in the future where the Islamic Arab killers of innocent Israeli people will not be terrorists. At no point in the history of the world will the actions taken against the state of Israel be remembered as anything other than what they are. Terrorist acts by terrorists. That you don't know this makes me the sorriest for you.

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You're right, luckydevi, let's begin celebrating these heroic Palestinian freedom fighters:

Home turns to Hell

This town of multi-level stone homes in the hills near Nablus had not yet finished the shloshim, or, month of mourning, for the three teenaged rabbinical students who were murdered here while playing basketball, when last night, tragedy struck once again.

As mothers and daughters prepared for the nearing Sabbath, reenacting a weekly ritual of baking and bonding, outside, under a full-moon sky and with winds hiding the sound of his approach, a terrorist trained by The Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine infiltrated this area of 500 families.

At about 9:00 pm, Boaz Shabo was en route from Jerusalem, when his cellphone rang. It was his thirteen year-old daughter, Aviya. She was frantic.

One by one, family members who were at home, were shot with an automatic weapon after a terrorist forced himself into their house.

She had witnessed it all.

"PLEASE, abba [daddy], come home quick!" she wailed into the receiver. "They are dying."

First hit, was her twelve year-old brother, Tzvika, who had been sitting, reviewing the Torah portion for his upcoming Bar Mitzvah. When the terrorist took aim at Aviya's mother, Rachel, another brother, Neria, 15, tried to act as a human shield. It was futile.

Avishai, 5, the family's youngest, began shrieking, after he awoke from the commotion. The terrorist soon opened fire on his tiny body.

The crying stopped.

Aviya was shot in the chest and leg as she tried to escape the home that turned to Hell. David, who ran to guard his sister, was pummeled with bullets in his stomach.

As Rachel lay dying, she watched Neria gasp his last breath. As his soul departed, she cried out the words of the martyrs, "Shema Yisrael!" When she peered down at her son's now limp body, she saw their blood merge.

Tzvika's last words were: "Shalom, [goodbye], Eema [momma]. I will see you in shamayim [Heaven]."

Before she expired, Rachel had witnessed the murder of three of her children.

As the village's chief of security, Yossi Tuito, engaged in a gun battle with the terrorist -- leaving both of them dead -- the Shabos' home was somehow set ablaze.

When Boaz Shabo finally arrived at the town's gate, he was met by the hamlet's rabbi. His worst nightmare was confirmed. Immediately, Boaz tore his jacket four times, as a mourning sign for each family member.

Instead of Sabbath candles being lit by his wife, this week before sundown Boaz Shabo will light four yahrtzeit (memorial) ones.

The dead will be burried a few hundred feet from Boaz's destroyed home, in which he will not even be able to observe the shiva mourning ritual.

— Harvey Tannenbaum, ITAMAR DIARIST

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Here's more good stuff from an interview with the mother of a Palestinian freedom fighter, from the MEMRI site- Allah be praised!

June 18, 2002 No.391

An Interview with the Mother of a Suicide Bomber

The London-based Arabic-language daily Al-Sharq Al-Awsat published an interview with Umm Nidal, the mother of the shahid [martyr] Muhammad Farhat. During the first Intifada, Umm Nidal had hidden 'Imad 'Aql, the commander of Hamas's military wing "Izz Al-Din Al-Qassam Brigades," in the family’s home for over a year. The following are excerpts from the interview:

Q: "How did the idea of carrying out a Fidaai [martyrdom] operation develop in [your son] Muhammad's soul?"

Umm Nidal: "Jihad is a [religious] commandment imposed upon us. We must instill this idea in our sons' souls, all the time... What we see every day – massacres, destruction, bombing [of] homes – strengthened, in the souls of my sons, especially Muhammad, the love of Jihad and martyrdom."

Q: "Did you have a role in the planting of this spirit in Muhammad?"

Umm Nidal: "Allah be praised, I am a Muslim and I believe in Jihad. Jihad is one of the elements of the faith and this is what encouraged me to sacrifice Muhammad in Jihad for the sake of Allah. My son was not destroyed, he is not dead; he is living a happier life than I. Had my thoughts been limited to this world, I would not sacrifice Muhammad."

"I am a compassionate mother to my children, and they are compassionate towards me and take care of me. Because I love my son, I encouraged him to die a martyr's death for the sake of Allah... Jihad is a religious obligation incumbent upon us, and we must carry it out. I sacrificed Muhammad as part of my obligation."

"This is an easy thing. There is no disagreement [among scholars] on such matters. The happiness in this world is an incomplete happiness; eternal happiness is life in the world to come, through martyrdom. Allah be praised, my son has attained this happiness."

Q: "'Imad 'Aql lived with you, and was killed in your home. Did his personality influence Muhammad?"

Umm Nidal: "Muhammad was seven when the martyr 'Imad 'Aql lived with us at home… Muhammad joined the [izz Al-Din] Al-Qassam Brigades at age seven. Despite his young age, he was [an] assistant to 'Imad 'Aql, the Al-Qassam commander in the Gaza Strip. While his brothers were absent, he would watch the road, and take messages from 'Aql to the mujahideen. The martyr Muhammad was 'Imad's pupil. Muhammad would listen to 'Imad and watch him plan operations."

"'Imad lived with us for 14 months, and he had a room in our house from which he would plan the operations. The mujahideen would come to him and plan and sketch everything out, and little Muhammad would be with them, thinking and planning. This was the source of Muhammad's love of martyrdom."

"This is the atmosphere in which the love of martyrdom developed in Muhammad's soul. I, as a mother, naturally encouraged the love of Jihad in the soul of Muhammad and in the souls of all my sons, all of whom belong to the Al-Qassam Brigades. My eldest son, Nidal (31), is wanted now by the Israelis. My second son set out on a martyrdom operation, but was discovered, arrested, and sentenced to 11 years' imprisonment. I have another son, [Mu'min Farhat] who is the escort of Sheikh Ahmd Yassin."

"The atmosphere to which Muhammad was exposed was full of faith and love of martyrdom. I maintain that a man's faith does not reach perfection unless it attains self-sacrifice…"

Q: "How did Muhammad say goodbye before he carried out the operation?"

Umm Nidal: "Muhammad was willing to carry out any martyrdom operation... He swore to me that the only reason he loved life was Jihad. He would say to me that if his turn for Jihad did not come he would quit the military arm of the movement, take his weapon, and go to the battlefield to fight on his own."

"He tried several times. He would go out to the Al-Muntar road, taking his gun and bombs, but an opportunity did not present itself. He would return with his blood boiling because he hadn't managed to carry out an operation. He would brandish his weapon and tell me: 'Mom, this is my bride.' He loved his gun so much."

"He would tell me, 'I am going out now [to an attack]. I cannot control myself.' I would answer him, 'You will yet have a great opportunity. Be patient, plan well, so that you don't sacrifice yourself in vain. Act with your mind, not your emotions...'"

"On the day of the operation, he came to me and told me: 'Now, mother, I am setting out for my operation.' He prepared for the operation two days in advance, when the video was filmed. He asked me to be photographed with him, and during the filming he brandished his gun. I personally asked to make the film so as to remember."

"He set out to carry out the operation, and when he got to the area he spent the night with his friends there. I was in contact with him and I asked him about his morale. He told me he was very happy. Indeed, I saw his face happier than I had ever seen it."

"He set out for his operation with cold nerves, completely calm and confident, as if convinced that the operation would succeed."

"But I worried and feared greatly that the operation would not succeed, and that he would be arrested. I prayed for him when he left the house and asked Allah to make his operation a success and give him martyrdom. When he entered the settlement, his brothers in the military wing [of Hamas] informed me that he had managed to infiltrate it. Then I began to pray to Allah for him."

"I prayed from the depths of my heart that Allah would cause the success of his operation. I asked Allah to give me 10 [israelis] for Muhammad, and Allah granted my request and Muhammad made his dream come true, killing 10 Israeli settlers and soldiers. Our God honored him even more, in that there were many Israelis wounded."

"When the operation was over, the media broadcast the news. Then Muhammad's brother came to me and informed me of his martyrdom. I began to cry, 'Allah is the greatest,' and prayed and thanked Allah for the success of the operation. I began to utter cries of joy and we declared that we were happy. The young people began to fire into the air out of joy over the success of the operation, as this is what we had hoped for him."

"After the martyrdom [operation], my heart was peaceful about Muhammad. I encouraged all my sons to die a martyr's death, and I wish this even for myself. After all this, I prepared myself to receive the body of my son, the pure shahid, in order to look upon him one last time and accept the well-wishers who [came] to us in large numbers and participated in our joy over Muhammad's martyrdom..."(1)


(1) Al-Sharq Al-Awsat (London), June 5, 2002.

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Just what I need - somone from MAYBERRY to tell me what the US thinks about Californians. :rolleyes: You do rememeber Reagan right? What state was he from again? And perhaps I don't need to remind you that I have lived in Cali only 2 years? Or that I am from Virginia Beach?

But, before you guys get off you bandwagon...or is it soapbox? I think you need to realize that no where have I said that I support either the Israeli's or the Arab radicals. Nor have I said that I agreed with their methods.

My argument from the beginning has been that all sides were/are guilty of terrorism. Nothing that can be said here will change my mind on that just like nothing I say can change you minds on this. I guess I will be in the minority here who doesn't see the world as black and white - thats ok - I don't care.


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Just for the record, Ryan, those who formed the state of Israel in 1948 did engage in acts of terrorism against the British, and others, in the area. Prime Minister Begin, for one, was proud of his actions and considered himself a patriot and a freedom fighter. I do not dispute that he was, only that terrorist methods were used at that time. So why shouldn't the Palestinians believe that the same methods would work for them? Just a thought.

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You are correct in some regard Joe, The JDL(Jewish Defense League) was responsible for most of the "terrorist" acts but they only targeted British troops not civilians big difference. I don't have problem with Palestinians targeting Israeli troops(not that I agree with the Palestinian side of things) because if they were truly fighting a "war" than they would legitamate targets but killing civilians is never accepted.

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Pathetic (final?) response, E.G. It's a cop out to insult other posters and then say, when presented with compelling contradictory evidence, that "I believe what I believe and you can't change my mind." Although, I happen to view that as a white flag, admit it or not.

Originally posted by The Evil Genius

But, before you guys get off you bandwagon...or is it soapbox? I think you need to realize that no where have I said that I support either the Israeli's or the Arab radicals. Nor have I said that I agreed with their methods. My argument from the beginning has been that all sides were/are guilty of terrorism.

We're not confused about this "stand" you're taking. Indeed, it's your willingness to sacrifice any recognition of morality or immorality in your quest to equate Palestinian violence with Israeli violence, and therefore to appear fair, that's the cause of ridicule. Notably, you've totally failed to point out any support for your position. Do you really believe that the Israeli violence is aimed at eradicating Palestinians, the very same way that Palestinian violence is aimed at eradicating Israel?

I guess you're saying that you're anti-violence, which is truly wonderful insight on your part. Thank you for your strong moral stand on the issue. We all lament violence, but it exists and sometimes for good reason. I'm anti-disease. Let's be anti-disease together. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by The Evil Genius

Nothing that can be said here will change my mind on that just like nothing I say can change you minds on this. I guess I will be in the minority here who doesn't see the world as black and white - thats ok - I don't care.

Again, pathetic to take your ball and go home. But also telling. If no facts can change your mind on this, that says you're close minded. Your admission is noted.

Please explain, BTW, how it is more close-minded and rigid, or as you say "black and white" (not right and wrong, or moral and immoral, as most others are arguing), to analyze who the respective sides are targeting with their violence, when they are using violence, and how they are acting violently, and what they are trying to achieve with their violence, as opposed to your view which simply says "everyone's wrong". Tell us please, which set of views recognizes more shades of grey?

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I believe you are correct, Funky, the King David Hotel, for example, was the site of a British military HQ (I don't remember which one offhand) But there was significant collateral damage i.e. civilian casualties, with that bombing, including Jewish bystanders themselves who were killed.

I think that the the palestinians must view all the people of Israel as combatants. That is the only explanation for it, and they are at war with the people of Israel.

As I said before, I have this sick feeling that it is just going to come down to the last person on each side killing each other. Then there will be nothing left but the desert.

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Whoa redman - sorry to raise your blood pressure.

What was my original post? Here let me find it...

Here it is...

I know this isnt a popular position...but I think its worth noting that the terrorism is coming from both sides (actually all 3 - the Arab nations, Israel, and the Christian based groups).

Note when Art pointed out that I said Israel when I thought I had said Jews, I made the change. Since Israel is comprised of a lot of faiths that is.

The fact remains (at least to me) - all three sides are guilty of use of terrorism. The Arab factions have used it more egregiously - no doubt about that.

The Jews used it, as some have pointed out, in both their original creation of the state of Israel, and, while in control of the Israeli state, as I have pointed out - in their systematic targeting of civilian areas in which "they suspect terrorists".

Is Israel's use of terrorism jusitifed? I don't know - but I tend to lean towards it being justified - but does that mean its not terrorism? I don't think so.

Sorry if you didnt catch the tongue in cheek argument I made in my last post. Sometimes my sarcasm doesn't come through clearly.



:peace: :peace:

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Guest SkinsHokie Fan

That is our problem. Unfourtantley the morons who run Hamas claim moral authority in declaring all Isreali's combatants. This I completely disagree with. Going after the Isreali army in the occupied territories and in settlements I wont have a problem with. This is similar to what the French resistance did to the Nazi's. However killing civilians on a bus is just sick and in Islam is considered haram which is a major violation of the Quran.

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This is similar to what the French resistance did to the Nazi's.



...Ok I'm sorry SkinsHokie. I shouldn't be laughing at you, maybe it was ME that missed something.

But could you please define "resistance", and why do you have the word "French" in front of it?

It confuses everything.

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