The College Board

[NYSkins1]

I know most of the people who post here are well out of high school, but is anyone else sick of the monopoly the College Board/ETS has? Within the last week, I've taken 5 AP exams and an SAT, totaling around $450 to the College Board. The ACT has made some headway in taking away the College Board's monopoly, but you really can't not take the SAT.

Also, there are some very "Big Brother" practices that they have. Each year, people who take AP exams get Student Packs. Inside the Student Pack is a sheet of labels with barcodes and a number. That number becomes a student's AP Number for all of their exams. In other words, I now have a barcode attached to my name.

[NYSkins1]

Another thing: I think the reason this country is behind in science and math is because our standards are too low. The only standardized test that really measures a person's proficiency in math is the AP Calculus exam. The farthest the math section of the SAT goes is simple algebra. I could have taken the SAT in eighth grade and potentially have gotten an 800 on the math section. All the SAT math section tests is your accuracy, not your proficiency. The SAT tells us that we only need to get as far as Algebra I and we're fine in math.

[dchogs]

Originally posted by NYSkins1

Another thing: I think the reason this country is behind in science and math is because our standards are too low. The only standardized test that really measures a person's proficiency in math is the AP Calculus exam. The farthest the math section of the SAT goes is simple algebra. I could have taken the SAT in eighth grade and potentially have gotten an 800 on the math section. All the SAT math section tests is your accuracy, not your proficiency. The SAT tells us that we only need to get as far as Algebra I and we're fine in math.

it has been a while, but isn't there geometry on the SAT?

[Prosperity]

I also hated the college board, and I think I actually made a thread on it a while ago. I am not so much afraid of a big brother thing as I am about their exorbitant fees especially when it comes to reporting scores. There is absolutely no reason they should charge $15 to report a score for a test that I already took and paid for. (especially since they only report a ONE DIGIT NUMBER for the AP)

The SAT I math test uses Algebra I and geometry and the first time I took it I couldn't remember all the little geometry tricks that I learned so I didn't do too well. I took it again (this time prepared) and I did much better. Secondly I don't they want to judge how much you have learned but instead your reasoning skills (I don't think it does a very good job of it). Thirdly, the vast majority of high schoolers don't ever take Calculus until college anyway so it won't be the "standard" test they want it to be. Besides how can they make more money if students wouldn't have to take the SAT II IC SAT IIC and the math APs for more proficient students.

I think the verbal section is good enough though. (I don't know about the new one, but I think they got rid of the analogies and they were my favorite questions)

As for saying our students are behind in math and science, I don't know if that is a completely fair assesment. The HS systems in other countries are sometimes better in those categories but compare those countries' college students to our and there is no contest. The US has the best college and university system in the world.

[Ignatius J.]

So I'm assuming you got an 800 in math then right?

I actually disagree with almost everything in your post.

The SAT math is actually a really good test for how smart someone is. Like you said. There is absolutely no reason a smart person won't get above a 1500 on thier SATs. Therefore the test is great at testing raw ability.

The problem with the AP calc test is that too few high schools have good teachers. There probably are a few smart kids who simply never get to take AP calc.

The fees are ridicualously high, but when you think about how hard it is to grade these things (not the SAT, but the AP tests with free response) you start to realize why they are so expensive.

But more to the point, you're talking about under a thousand dollars. You're about to spend over a hundred grand on a good college education and you're complaining about a grand. Education is important, so begrudging the cost is a bit strange. The AP tests are great tests.

Still, they are a monopoly I and I tend to agree with you, I just think there is another side to that argument too.

But the SAT is a great test. It was designed to get poor black kids into harvard, and for the most part it has done that.

I guess what I'm saying is that if you're tryong to differentiate between 1000 and 1400 you aren't getting much resolution, but the kids who score above 1450 are generally the smart ones.

Also liberty, the point of the test isn't to remember the tricks in geometry so much as figure out all the tricks. That ability to find the tricks to solve the problem is what they are testing for.

[TODD]

Loudoun County Schools pays for the wonderful AP Chemistry and Government exams I will be taking in the next couple of days. The only problem I have with College Board is their terrible website that's very slow.

[TODD]

Originally posted by Ignatius J.

So I'm assuming you got an 800 in math then right?

I actually disagree with almost everything in your post.

The SAT math is actually a really good test for how smart someone is. Like you said. There is absolutely no reason a smart person won't get above a 1500 on thier SATs. Therefore the test is great at testing raw ability.

The problem with the AP calc test is that too few high schools have good teachers. There probably are a few smart kids who simply never get to take AP calc.

The fees are ridicualously high, but when you think about how hard it is to grade these things (not the SAT, but the AP tests with free response) you start to realize why they are so expensive.

But more to the point, you're talking about under a thousand dollars. You're about to spend over a hundred grand on a good college education and you're complaining about a grand. Education is important, so begrudging the cost is a bit strange. The AP tests are great tests.

Still, they are a monopoly I and I tend to agree with you, I just think there is another side to that argument too.

But the SAT is a great test. It was designed to get poor black kids into harvard, and for the most part it has done that.

In regards to the test itself, I agree with you. It's a great way to measure aptitude, well, atleast it was before the writing section was added on.

[Prosperity]

Originally posted by Ignatius J.

Also liberty, the point of the test isn't to remember the tricks in geometry so much as figure out all the tricks. That ability to find the tricks to solve the problem is what they are testing for.

Then test scores are very skewed because I doubt many kids figure out the tricks while they are taking the test. Preparation can make a huge difference. For example, someone that memorizes the formulas and instructions will do much better than someone who hasn't and must refer back to the first page continuosly.

You also said the test helps poor blacks get in to college? How is that true, I don't have the stats one me, but I am pretty sure blacks have a much lower average compared to others. The fact is colleges will accept black students because they want to, not because they are particulary compettative compared to other groups.

Furthermore, the SAT has given colleges reasons NOT to accept more black students since they generally score lower and since there is such an emphasis placed on standerdized testing it makes it harder to accept a black students for reasons other than AA.

[dfitzo53]

Originally posted by NYSkins1

I know most of the people who post here are well out of high school, but is anyone else sick of the monopoly the College Board/ETS has? Within the last week, I've taken 5 AP exams and an SAT, totaling around $450 to the College Board. The ACT has made some headway in taking away the College Board's monopoly, but you really can't not take the SAT.

Also, there are some very "Big Brother" practices that they have. Each year, people who take AP exams get Student Packs. Inside the Student Pack is a sheet of labels with barcodes and a number. That number becomes a student's AP Number for all of their exams. In other words, I now have a barcode attached to my name.

At least when I was in school good old Fairfax County paid for my AP tests. The barcode thing never really bothered me.

Originally posted by Liberty

I am not so much afraid of a big brother thing as I am about their exorbitant fees especially when it comes to reporting scores. There is absolutely no reason they should charge $15 to report a score for a test that I already took and paid for. (especially since they only report a ONE DIGIT NUMBER for the AP)

I agree with you there.

[Ignatius J.]

Liberty, I'm talking about when the exams were first created, that was thier intent. I'm not saying blacks will do better, but the question is are blacks better at AP clac or the SAT? I'd guess the SAT, and the more we make the SAT like AP calc, my guess is that minorities are disproportionally affected.

Obviously, they aren't perfect, but most of the proposed modifications espeically in the math section will make it harder for minorities to do better. Again, I simply have yet to see a test that will do a better job. Maybe it's becasue of the monopoly.

Also, I agree with your point about it not being very good at judging the difference between people in the 1000 to 1400 range. I guess what I'm saying is that a 1500 or more on the SAT means you have a really smart kid on your hands. The kid with a 1500 did not simply study harder than the kid with the 1200, you have to be smart to get those kinds of scores.

[Prosperity]

Here are some stats:

(quick google search)

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/sats/etc/gap.html

Among seniors who are entering college in the Fall of 1999, African Americans' average scores on the SAT I Verbal were 93 points below white students' average scores. Blacks scored, on average, 106 points less than whites on the SAT I Math.

[Prosperity]

Originally posted by Ignatius J.

Liberty, I'm talking about when the exams were first created, that was thier intent. I'm not saying blacks will do better, but the question is are blacks better at AP clac or the SAT? I'd guess the SAT, and the more we make the SAT like AP calc, my guess is that minorities are disproportionally affected.

Obviously, they aren't perfect, but most of the proposed modifications espeically in the math section will make it harder for minorities to do better. Again, I simply have yet to see a test that will do a better job. Maybe it's becasue of the monopoly.

Also, I agree with your point about it not being very good at judging the difference between people in the 1000 to 1400 range. I guess what I'm saying is that a 1500 or more on the SAT means you have a really smart kid on your hands. I don't think you But the kid with a 1500 did not simply study harder than the kid with the 1200, you have to be smart to get those kinds of grades.

oh ok nevermind

Also, I agree with your point about it not being very good at judging the difference between people in the 1000 to 1400 range.

Let's say 1000-1330

[OrangeSkin]

The College Board is practically criminal, as are all the other companies that leach off these kids. I had to shell out $222 for my son to take three AP tests. Simply absurd. Then they charge you $15 extra to get your scores early by phone, which indicates they already have the scores and could just as easily mail them out instead of charging for them. I could go on.

I'm sure somebody is sitting pretty on all the cash they've made from unsuspecting high schoolers and their parents.

And don't even get me started on Jostens, which is just as bad, if not worse than the College Board. My son is graduating this year, and I was simply stunned at all the stuff the hawked on him. I just ordered him the cap and gown for graduation; we weren't going to be taken by those sleazebags.

Some of the stuff they offer is simply absurd. Along with your cap and gown, you can get class of '05 stationary, class of '05 pencils, a class of '05 mug, assorted class of '05 t-shirts, and I kid you not, class of '05 BOXERS. All of this comes ridiculously overpriced as well.

Thank goodness most of the kids seem to be discerning enough to realize when they're being preyed upon. That's all these companies really are; vultures feeding on the innocent.

The high school companies make big oil look like the freakin' Peace Corps.

[dfitzo53]

Originally posted by Ignatius J.

Obviously, they aren't perfect, but most of the proposed modifications espeically in the math section will make it harder for minorities to do better. Again, I simply have yet to see a test that will do a better job. Maybe it's becasue of the monopoly.

The monopoloy may be part of it, but IQ tests have been around for 100 years and still are sketchy measures of intelligence. The fact is that testing is hard to do for a variety of reasons. People can easily be placed into ranges, as you said. Those scoring above 1500 are likely smarter than those scoring from 1000 to 1400, but narrowing it down more than that is difficult, and probably silly to attempt.

I would also say that the format of the test is draining to say the least. By the end of the three-and-a-half hour exam I didn't even care anymore, and that was before the writing section was added.

[Kilmer17]

I never thought standardized tests were a problem until my wife showed me the Standardized Tests for 3rd graders.

It had this question.

Jane wants to go outside but doesnt want to get snow on her feet. What should she wear :

A- Sneakers

B- Galloshes

C- Sandals

D- Socks.

Seems obvious doesnt it. But what if you are a kid who has never left the state of Florida? And has no idea what a "gallosh" is? The answer to that kid is "Sneakers". Afterall, they would keep snow off the feet. But the problem is that "Sneakers", while correct, is not the BEST POSSIBLE ANSWER. Galloshes is.

I dont know if there is a better way than what we have. And I dont necessarily think that colleges should change (they should be able to determine their minimum reqts to attend). But I think it's crazy to argue that stardardized tests cant be biased.

[jenmdixon]

Consider that the AP exams, if you score well on them, will most likely get you out of taking intro-level courses in college (at the very least) and may get you college credit (at the very best). It is money well spent if you think of 1) being bored by the intro-level classes as stuff you've already seen before ad nauseum, and 2) you can pay ridiculous amounts of money to be in those classes when you can instead pay to be in a more interesting class.

The one AP exam that I took (which was the only one that my high school had a class for then), AP English, got me out of freshmen English classes. Thank god. Some of the best money that I (not my parents, *I*) ever spent.

I took the PSAT twice (we had to in my school...), the SAT 3 times (again, we had to take it twice, I took it a third time for kicks - yes I was weird), the ACT once, the AP English exam once, and several different Achievement tests (biology, French, US History, math - I think it was Geometry, etc.). They made their money off me, but then again it got me out of boring ass classes in my first two years of college, so it was well worth it.

I'm currently beginning to study for the GRE exam. So I am getting back into the race here with respect to standardized tests. Not to mention that I am also studying to take the first of Sun's Java Certification exams. Just when you think you escape them...

[Leonard Washington]

i hope you don't plan to go to med school or pro school...those necessary tests also like to dig in your pockets.

[Leonard Washington]

i also took AP course in high school and got 5's on them. they allow you to skip a course or earn credit but i wouldn't recommend it if you plan to major in the subject. besides taking it again would gaurantee an A or B! also take note that AP credit in a course doesn't always correspond to general education requirements.

[dfitzo53]

Originally posted by Kilmer17

I never thought standardized tests were a problem until my wife showed me the Standardized Tests for 3rd graders.

It had this question.

Jane wants to go outside but doesnt want to get snow on her feet. What should she wear :

A- Sneakers

B- Galloshes

C- Sandals

D- Socks.

Seems obvious doesnt it. But what if you are a kid who has never left the state of Florida? And has no idea what a "gallosh" is? The answer to that kid is "Sneakers". Afterall, they would keep snow off the feet. But the problem is that "Sneakers", while correct, is not the BEST POSSIBLE ANSWER. Galloshes is.

I dont know if there is a better way than what we have. And I dont necessarily think that colleges should change (they should be able to determine their minimum reqts to attend). But I think it's crazy to argue that stardardized tests cant be biased.

Cultural bias is exactly one of the various reasons testing is difficult to do in my post.

At the opposite end of the spectrum there is the Virginia SOL test. They frankly insulted my intelligence. If that is what we've decided kids should know after going through the public school system we may as well not educate them.

A question on the english section:

Which if the following is not part of tree?

A. Trunk

B. Root

C. Leaf

D. Door

That was in 8th grade.

[jenmdixon]

Originally posted by dfitzo53

A question on the english section:

Which if the following is not part of tree?

A. Trunk

B. Root

C. Leaf

D. Door

Um, well, doesn't it depend on where the tree is??? Case in point, see below.

I rest my case!

[dfitzo53]

Originally posted by jenmdixon

Um, well, doesn't it depend on where the tree is??? Case in point, see below.

I rest my case!

There you go - more cultural bias.

[Predicto]

I am not a fan of standardized testing, especially the SAT. It does not measure "aptitude." At least half of what that test measures is your confidence and ability to take standardized tests, and how many prep classes you took. It is a cover for lazy admissions offices.

And nothing makes me angrier than some kids from a rich suburb with great teachers and a home full of books, who took three SAT prep courses, screaming that he was discriminated against when a college accepts an inner city kid with a lower SAT, and who complains that admissions should be on "merit alone," i.e., who got the higher SAT. The higher SAT is not merit. That inner city kid who rose to the top in his crappy environment achieved more, and deserves the spot.

[Kilmer17]

The SAT is certainly merit. It's one of many. But denying it has a place at all is pretty short sighted. As is saying that SAT alone should determine eligibility.

You're story about the innercity kid is nice and may apply in a few cases. But if that same innercity kid finishes tops in his/her class because everyone else isnt as smart (or whatever tool you want to use to judge); then he/she may be ill-equipped to handle the rigors of a college environment.

IE- there are more variables that both sides should look at.

[Predicto]

I think we are in agreement Kilmer. The SAT has its place. Unfortunately, that place is much too large right now. I am not saying abolish it, but less emphasis on the SAT would be a positive thing.

I simply am not as impressed with the kid from innercity McLean High who is middle of his class and got a 1300 on his SAT than I am with the kid who is top of his class and got an 1100 at innercity Dunbar High.

[Kilmer17]

I think we do agree.

But your last analogy is puzzling. Didnt you just use SATs as merit along with region?

What if the kid at McLean lives in a rental house with 25 people, eats rice 7 days a week and has to share pencils with 11 other kids. And the kid at Dunbar is the child of a Diplomat whose parents want to broaden horizons so they dont go the private school route. But at home has tutors, books and a nurtuirng environment?

My point is, we cant blame others for judging books by covers when we do the same sometimes.