Controversy

[Awgustlab]

Hello All!! I am fairly new to ExtremeSkins and first off wanted to say how awesome it is to find this jewel of a website!! I wanted to discuss something that happened last night at my favorite sports bar. I had gone over to my buddy's house to watch the pathetic Lakets/Nets game and we were drinking some cervezas. After the game we decided to roll down to the sports bar to chill out for a lete night Happy Hour (dollar drafts!). While there, we got into a discussion about the name "Redskins".

I need to first tell you that I am a white guy and my buddy is a Navajo. I am a Redskins fan and he is a friggin Cowboys fan. Kinda ironic, people always give us a little hell. Now, maybe it was we were sippin on the suds and all, but he never once really said to me that he thought it was offensive that my team is called the "Redskins", and we have been friends for several years. Hell, I met him at the same bar one football Sunday, and we were both representing our colors.

Now, I felt as though I really didn't have a legitimate argument to give to him, although I really do. But the whole, "how would you know?" argument of his kept coming in to play. "You have never felt this discrimination" or "Have you ever been called a 'Redskin;" type retorts kept coming back at me whenever I would say anything. Personally, I have lived around Native Americans my whole life and I have never heard any white person or other refer to NAs as "Redskins". I have heard other derogatory remarks, etc, but never "Redskins". I feel a great sense of pride to be a Redskins fan and could never imagine being as religious a fan of any other team. It would just NEVER happen. You'd have to shoot me. I guess my post is to ak you all out there what you all thought about this or what you would say if you were in my situation. I thought about doing some research on the history of the Redskins going back to the very beginiing and then giving him some literature I found from the internet or whatever. Then I also felt like I should jsut let the argument die last night in the sports bar and forget about it. We'll still be friends no matter what, but it just had me a tad bothered since last night and I thought I would get it off my chest here amongst fellow Redskins fans. I appreciate any feedback. HTTR!! :hammer:

[fuji869]

The Late Jack Kent Cooke said it best when asked about the name. "A Redskin is a Brave or a Warrior, it is not meant to be offensive" Have him look at the Indian Head on the helmet, it looks like a bad a$$ ready for battle. I have talked to a few Native Americans and they do not find the name offensive.

Why is there not a big movement in Canada to re-name the Vancouver Canucks? Oh yea most Canadians don't let small things like sports mascots bother them, maybe we should take a lesson from our neighbors to the north!

[bulldog]

a few years ago I saw an interview with Russell Means, a Native American activist and actor (Last of the Mohicans) and he indicated that he wished advocacy groups would spend more time and money on programs for Native people and their development than on trying to fight what he called at least partially dubious battles against such things as sports mascots and corporate logos.

So there is a diversity of opinion even within the NA community just as there is among mainstream fans of the sports teams themselves.

Personally, I would see the point of protesting 'Redskins' if it were just the name itself that was of issue.

But the same advocacy groups are also against the name and logo of the Chiefs. I don't see any lack of respect shown for NA's in the helmet logo or name of the KC football team.

So, this issue is about more than just a name.

Perhaps that is something for everyone to consider.

[Riggo-toni]

One nitpicky point I've been wanting to get in forever - Anyone born in America is thus by definition a native American. So if you can't bring yourself to say American Indian, say Indigenous American instead (I know, some anthropologist is now gonna blast me by saying they're technically indigenous to Asia...:doh:

[BogeyMan]

You know - I'm really tired of being called white. I demand to be called Caucasian-American from this point forward.

Then again, my ancestors are not from the Caucasian mountain region, so maybe I should be called European-American.

[Rat_Boy]

You have a friend who is Native American, and he is a fan of the Cowboys, and he is offended by the name Redskins?

Do I understand you correctly?

Well, I would just ask him how many Indians were killed by Cowboys back in the day.

[fuji869]

Originally posted by BogeyMan

You know - I'm really tired of being called white. I demand to be called Caucasian-American from this point forward.

Then again, my ancestors are not from the Caucasian mountain region, so maybe I should be called European-American.

Because my father is white and my mother is Korean I know what to be known as a Euro-Asian-American.

And I find Hong Kong Fuey very offensive to Asians!

[Art]

We go over this foolishness dozens of times each offseason. Simply put, the defense against people saying Redskins is offensive is simple. Say, "Ok, it is." The, tell them so is the term mother. And tell him that n!gger isn't offensive. When he gets going on you simply tell him that every word in the English language can be stated in such a way as to make it a negative or to make it offensive. They can also be said in a positive way.

Words don't have a single meaning. Words have many levels of meaning and word usage defines that meaning. When black males use a jocular n!gger to greet a friend, it's not an offensive term any longer. When 70,000 people are singing "Hail to the Redskins," it ceases conveying an insult and transforms to a different usage and different meaning.

The fact is that our Indian friends find the word Indian more offensive than Redskin because Redskin has never been the Indian "n!gger" as some like to say. The most recent poll done shows that 83 percent of Indians polled have no issue with Indian nicknames INCLUDING the Redskins. Just like they have no problem with the movie Windtalkers that portrays an Indian fighting in the army. How sterotypical showing an Indian fighting and all. .

[Awgustlab]

Well, Yeah, my buddy is Native American and he is a Cryboy fan. That is why it is ironic that he and I are friends and fans of the opposite teams. Me - Redskins and Him - Cowboys. My point being was that he felt like that I could not pose an argument because I never felt or was the brunt of the discrimination that he has felt as a Native American. And I have to cry "bull$hit" because I don't feel like this is a valid issue in this day and age, at least to him and me. What do I know, I'm Caucasian, errrrrr European American. Oh, no I'm white, but with a slight tan so I'm kinda brown. So that makes me well..........ummmmm Well, I was born in Texas. (Don't get me started on that one!!) I'm not pasty like the Green Bay fans around here transplanted from WI, and I definitely aint no Donkey fan. WHO AM I?????!!!!??????? I guess I'm just the simple guy who Loves his Redskins, and that's all I am!! Damn, I sound like "The Jerk". Who didn't get their check for "ONE DOLLAR and .......... CENTS!!"?

Art - Windtalkers?? $hit, the NAs I know around here can't wait to go see that movie. It seems like it is a Hollywood movie to me that will not do justice once again to another great contribution to our great country. But I guess that is better than nothing to the Navajos here in NM. It is something that they can be proud of themselves, because not everybody out there realizes what the Navajos conributed to WWII. After all, if it weren't for their codes (unwritten language at the time), we may not be here to talk about this or that or this or that or this and all.

[Art]

Awgustlab,

I could care less whether Indians you know want to see Windtalkers or whether it is a potentially uplifting movie. I'm certain both statements are true. The point is, you have an Indiap portrayed fighting in a war for the U.S. I guarantee you two or three fruitcakes might find that offensive.

Like the name Redskins, a team name intended to convey honor, spirit and respect, there are a handful of fruitcakes that are determined to tell us that words have a single meaning and they can never mean anything else. The word Indian was as disrespectful as it came for those native to this land. Over the years it has gotten less so, but, in the 1800s and early 1900s, it was a negative word uttered and intended.

Redskin as a root term originated from the price on an Indian scalp. It was never really used as an insult but rather a generic lumping in for a term to describe the price of a head of an Indian from scalpers as we didn't care to know who was who at the time during our expansion. Since the Washington Redskins football came into existence, the word Redskin has disappeared from any use other than the football one.

It has been taken from potentially negative roots and turned into a word with a primary meaning of something else. Any word can be made negative and words can also be made positive. It's the nature of language.

[skinsanity56]

i've had native slashers on my survey crews for 15yrs,and i've worn a redskin hat everyday,and never once have i been criticized for it.if anything they thought it was cool.

hail REDSKINS

:notworthy :notworthy

[Burgold]

A name is like a rose or so Shakespeare would say. Twain said that there aren't enough words in the English language so that he would use any :::: word he wishes. Connotation is important. A word can have different meanings. The Redskins name applied to the football team was always meant to be an honorific. Certainly, in modern times it is only that. Now Cowboys, that term was originally derogatory. It came from anti-ranching folks, who suggested that these "cowboys" who spent so many days alone on the range would get lonely and therefore get their loving with cows. Thanks largely to the movies, the term cowboys has since evolved into something more adventurous, but in its heart most we know that Cowboys have a difficult time giving up their bad habits, including bestiality

Words do have power though. I remember my reaction to Snyder being nicknamed Hitler. Though, my reaction was largely based on the inaccuracy of the description, that Snyder is Jewish, and that the use of the name was intended to be cruel. Redskins is not meant to be cruel. The mere report that beyond the lobbying groups there does not to be much fervor behind the anti name stance makes me think that the attack against the name in recent years is largely symbolic. If the name Redskins does meet the above criteria and does conjure a great degree of racial hostility or injury, I could see myself rooting for the Washington Controversy or another name, but I don't see or feel that swell of antipathy for it. After all, a rose by any other name would smell as sweet. For these reasons, I don't see a strong reason to change the Redskin name.