Commander PK Posted January 21, 2005 Share Posted January 21, 2005 Originally posted by Destino So then if you wife has a miscarriage her body should be considered a crime scene until the police declare otherwise? You should have to report the death of the fetus or face punishment? You should have to report the conception of the fetus or face punishment? Should you fill out this new citizens paperwork during the first or second month of pregnancy? If a woman chooses to work through her pregnancy and the stress leads to a miscarriage is she a criminal? How about if she doesn't know she is a month pregnant and drinks causing the fetus harm, again criminal? It's all about intent. No, I'm not saying that a woman who has a miscarriage should be considered a crime scene. Do you not see the difference? One is intentional (assault by another leading to death of fetus) One is not (usually not) (miscarriage.) It's ALL about intent. Can you realistically charge a mother for a crime against her unborn child. Working when she shouldn't. Drinking when she shouldn't. No, of course not. Can you charge somebody else who attacks her, and kills her unborn child, whether intentional (Murder), or unintentional (Manslaughter). ABSOLUTELY. For me, it can be presumed, and it seems the state sees it this way also, that the child would have lived to full term and been born had it not been intentionally, or unintentionally killed by another other than the mother. In a case the suspect assaulting the mother, doesn't know she's preganant, and kills the fetus as a direct result of injuries HE caused, then Yes, he should be charged with Manslaughter. If you drink and drive, and strike another car, killing it's occupant. You did not premeditate the killing (Murder), but a life was ended, due to your negligent and irresponsible act. Hense, the vehicular manslaughter charge. Same thing. If you believe that a fetus is a life that should be valued the same as a person. I do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashback Posted January 21, 2005 Share Posted January 21, 2005 Anybody who beats a woman or molests a child is an excellent candidate for execution, whether anybody dies or not. My fondest hope for the Human Genome Project is that they will find a cause for these behaviors and we can eliminate them from the human race. Until then, we'll just have to do it the old fashioned way. And if it was my wife or kid, the state wouldn't need to bother getting its hands dirty. I'd take care of that **** myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom [Giants fan] Posted January 21, 2005 Share Posted January 21, 2005 What if a pregnant woman is playfully pushed or tripped by a friend who wasn't told yet that she was pregnant and she loses the baby? Is that murder or manslaughter? What is my point? I'm not sure. For some very odd reason, that question came to my head when I saw this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Evil Genius Posted January 21, 2005 Share Posted January 21, 2005 Shoot...I just turned 30...but to some of you, I have been 30 years old for over 9 months. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iheartskins Posted January 21, 2005 Share Posted January 21, 2005 Originally posted by Tom [Giants fan] What if a pregnant woman is playfully pushed or tripped by a friend who wasn't told yet that she was pregnant and she loses the baby? Is that murder or manslaughter? What is my point? I'm not sure. For some very odd reason, that question came to my head when I saw this thread. All of the criminal statutes have intent as a prerequisite to conviction. Thus, if there was no intent to harm, there could be no criminal conviction. There could, however, be a civil claim for negligence or battery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander PK Posted January 21, 2005 Share Posted January 21, 2005 and by the way. I see a miscarriage as natural selection. A Miscarriage is natural death of life. The mother's body rejects the fetus, because something is wrong in the process. Sheesh, it could be said that the mother could have caused the fetus to die, because she didn't eat enough fruit during the pregnancy....because it's impossible, and impractical to "investigate" or "charge" something like "intentional miscarriage." , Should that be the standard by which all deaths of unborn children are measured? Edit: If you can't convict a mother for "intentional miscarriage" should that also mean you can't convict somebody else for beating her up, and in effect killing her fetus? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilmer17 Posted January 21, 2005 Share Posted January 21, 2005 I cant believe Im one of the 4 voting no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prosperity Posted January 21, 2005 Share Posted January 21, 2005 Originally posted by Kilmer17 I cant believe Im one of the 4 voting no. In abortion the life ( I can't define it don't ask me) is weighed against the free will of the mother. In this case that problem doesn't exist. That is why this outcome is expectable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
portisizzle Posted January 21, 2005 Author Share Posted January 21, 2005 Originally posted by Liberty In abortion the life ( I can't define it don't ask me) is weighed against the free will of the mother. In this case that problem doesn't exist. That is why this outcome is expectable. It is expectable because it requires the individual to consider the value of life to the mother. In abortion, it is assumed the value of life to the mother is low or non existent. It should say a great deal to the pro-choice contingent that this "value" changes depending upon the circumstances. You would think that value is constant. A life is a life. Pro-choice advocates get around this by saying that life does not begin until birth. Well, that works fine until the mother who wants the child is suddenly left without that life growing inside her. I am looking for a position that can reconcile this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnyderShrugged Posted January 21, 2005 Share Posted January 21, 2005 Originally posted by Liberty The plaintiff really doesn't have any say anymore She definitely does, as does anyone who gains more information that could change their stance dramatically as time goes on. I wish I could reference the exact statute that is being used, but I can't remember it exactly (heard it ob the news the other night) You might be surprised, but I hope they don't overturn Roe v Wade. Noit for the reasons you may not want it overturned though. Someday, Roe V Wade will evolve into a Pro-Life decision. (as the point of viability increases with medical technology) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prosperity Posted January 21, 2005 Share Posted January 21, 2005 Originally posted by portisizzle It is expectable because it requires the individual to consider the value of life to the mother. In abortion, it is assumed the value of life to the mother is low or non existent. It should say a great deal to the pro-choice contingent that this "value" changes depending upon the circumstances. You would think that value is constant. A life is a life. Pro-choice advocates get around this by saying that life does not begin until birth. Well, that works fine until the mother who wants the child is suddenly left without that life growing inside her. I am looking for a position that can reconcile this. Well it is easy for you to say life starts at conception, but I don't consider an embryo or a ball of cells to be a human life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnyderShrugged Posted January 21, 2005 Share Posted January 21, 2005 Originally posted by Liberty Well it is easy for you to say life starts at conception, but I don't consider an embryo or a ball of cells to be a human life. What do you consider the first point that life begins then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
portisizzle Posted January 21, 2005 Author Share Posted January 21, 2005 Originally posted by Liberty Well it is easy for you to say life starts at conception, but I don't consider an embryo or a ball of cells to be a human life. Hell's bells, Liberty. Aren't we all just a ball of cells. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
portisizzle Posted January 21, 2005 Author Share Posted January 21, 2005 Originally posted by portisizzle Hell's bells, Liberty. Aren't we all just a ball of cells. hey that rhymed..... hell's, bells, were just a bunch of cells. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FBChick Posted January 21, 2005 Share Posted January 21, 2005 Originally posted by portisizzle I would be curious at some point here how you can reconcile a pro-choice stance with the murder of an unborn fetus. They seem irreconcilable. Irreconcilable is really a state of mind and matter of opinion. I personally believe a fetus becomes a living human at the point it can survive outside it's mother's womb. Of course this can become a intresting slope once science and technology advance far enough to conceive and grow a fetus into a baby, but for now, for legal speak I generally deem that to be close to the end of the second trimester. I support any laws that may restrict abortions after the first trimester outside of medical reasoning, as I believe a woman should be able to make the choice within the first three months of conception for any other reasoning. So for me, I actually wouldn't deem the crime murder or man-slaughter at least until you could prove to me the child could have been medically extracted from the woman and survive on it's own. Essentially, if a murderer sliced a woman's throat, but left the belly and the baby essentially unharmed and intact, could the baby survive with medical help. If the answer is no, then I would concede, that no it wasn't two murders, but one. I would also counter that anything otherwise would be allowing a sexual active, furtile woman to maintain more value for her life then say a male, an infurtile woman, or a sexually inactive woman. To say a the death of a fetus should incur a murder charge is really based solely on emotional value. Because the woman is emotionally devastated over the loss of the fetus, we now should value it higher and punish it more harsher then say the murder of a man who is the sole provider for his wife and three kids? The latter actually has a far greater consequence on society as a whole.. but even then he is treated no differently then a homeless man on the street. Can you prove to me the fetus would have survived to even have been born had the murder or beating never happened? But yet even when you can't, you have to force me to believe that the furtile woman's life and body are worth more then my husband's in term's of punishment? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prosperity Posted January 21, 2005 Share Posted January 21, 2005 Originally posted by portisizzle Hell's bells, Liberty. Aren't we all just a ball of cells. good point, but I still can't imagine an embryo as a human life, it just doesn't click Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thiebear Posted January 21, 2005 Share Posted January 21, 2005 I wasnt basing it on pro-life or abortion... I was basing it on a person beating a woman and the unborn child dying. With current laws if a woman was on the top step to the abortion clinic and a pro-life activist ran up and punched her in the stomach and said HERE its done Killer.... He should be charged with Murder.. She has the choice in this country to get said abortion or change her mind up until the moment it is done.. nobody can (assault and battery) that choice for her! As a single Dad I would dearly love a voice but thats a different set of laws...... Thats my take.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iheartskins Posted January 21, 2005 Share Posted January 21, 2005 Originally posted by skin-n-vegas I wish I could reference the exact statute that is being used, but I can't remember it exactly (heard it ob the news the other night) She is challenging the ruling under Federal Rules of Civil Procedure Rule 60(. The rule reads in relevant part: Rule 60. Relief from Judgment or Order ( Mistakes; Inadvertence; Excusable Neglect; Newly Discovered Evidence; Fraud, Etc. On motion and upon such terms as are just, the court may relieve a party or a party's legal representative from a final judgment, order, or proceeding for the following reasons: (1) mistake, inadvertence, surprise, or excusable neglect; (2) newly discovered evidence which by due diligence could not have been discovered in time to move for a new trial under Rule 59(; (3) fraud (whether heretofore denominated intrinsic or extrinsic), misrepresentation, or other misconduct of an adverse party; (4) the judgment is void; (5) the judgment has been satisfied, released, or discharged, or a prior judgment upon which it is based has been reversed or otherwise vacated, or it is no longer equitable that the judgment should have prospective application; or (6) any other reason justifying relief from the operation of the judgment. The motion shall be made within a reasonable time, and for reasons (1), (2), and (3) not more than one year after the judgment, order, or proceeding was entered or taken. A motion under this subdivision ( does not affect the finality of a judgment or suspend its operation. This rule does not limit the power of a court to entertain an independent action to relieve a party from a judgment, order, or proceeding, or to grant relief to a defendant not actually personally notified as provided in Title 28, U.S.C., § 1655, or to set aside a judgment for fraud upon the court. Writs of coram nobis, coram vobis, audita querela, and bills of review and bills in the nature of a bill of review, are abolished, and the procedure for obtaining any relief from a judgment shall be by motion as prescribed in these rules or by an independent action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
portisizzle Posted January 21, 2005 Author Share Posted January 21, 2005 Does anyone have a ballpark number as to how many abortions have occured in the United States since this ruling?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnyderShrugged Posted January 21, 2005 Share Posted January 21, 2005 Originally posted by iheartskins She is challenging the ruling under Federal Rules of Civil Procedure Rule 60(. The rule reads in relevant part: That's exactly it! Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thiebear Posted January 21, 2005 Share Posted January 21, 2005 Omg im outta here, i would rather be ignorant than know that number... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FBChick Posted January 21, 2005 Share Posted January 21, 2005 Originally posted by Destino So then if you wife has a miscarriage her body should be considered a crime scene until the police declare otherwise? You all laugh and scoff at him for this statement, when he actually hit the sole basis of the pro-choice movement. It's so much more then the right to abhort the fetus.. it's about deciding who has controll over the woman's body during the course of her pregnancy. Once you declare the fetus a life at conception, then you have to deal with all the legal ramifications that implies. Let me take his statement a step further. A young woman has sex with a man and then discovers she is pregnant. The relationship with the man ends badly and then seperate. Through the course of the pragnancy the woman has been adiment about the fact that she has no desire to be a mother and wants nothing to do with the baby. The man on the other hand has decided he wants the child and makes plans to raise it once it is born. During the second trimester the fetus dies and is still born. Does the man have the right to inquire about the cause of the death? Does he have the right to break Dr/ patient priviledge of the woman in order to find this information, because the only evidence is going to exist within her body. Does society have the right to determine when a woman has not taken enough steps to ensure the health and welfare of the fetus? Do they have the right to take preventative actions as we do with children from abusive households? Whose responsibility is it to care for the long term storage of left over embryos once a couples IVF is successful? You would no longer be able to just throw them out as they would be ruled a life. What if the refridgeration system at such a clinic died, killing all the embryos in storage? Can I charge the Dr for Manslaughter so many times over he'd be treated worse then a serial killer? Before you deem life begins at Conception and should be deemed murder if terminated, manslaughter if accidently terminated... answer me these questions and think about the far reaching consequences and tell me, as a woman, why I should feel safe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
portisizzle Posted January 21, 2005 Author Share Posted January 21, 2005 Originally posted by FBChick You all laugh and scoff at him for this statement, when he actually hit the sole basis of the pro-choice movement. It's so much more then the right to abhort the fetus.. it's about deciding who has controll over the woman's body during the course of her pregnancy. I don't laugh and scoff at Destino. I pray and worry for Destino. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FBChick Posted January 21, 2005 Share Posted January 21, 2005 Originally posted by portisizzle I don't laugh and scoff at Destino. I pray and worry for Destino. Why worry.. the man at least can make his decision based on logical and societal reasoning, not based on emotional and religious conjecture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyingtiger1013 Posted January 21, 2005 Share Posted January 21, 2005 Originally posted by portisizzle hey that rhymed..... hell's, bells, were just a bunch of cells. That may just replace Dust in the Wind. "Just a bunch of cells All of us, just a bunch of cells..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.