portisizzle Posted January 22, 2005 Author Share Posted January 22, 2005 Originally posted by FBChick You all laugh and scoff at him for this statement, when he actually hit the sole basis of the pro-choice movement. It's so much more then the right to abhort the fetus.. it's about deciding who has controll over the woman's body during the course of her pregnancy. Alright I have to respond. Destino was referring to a crazy politician in the Virginia state legislature who introducted legislation making it a requirement that all women who have a miscarriage report it to the police. You give yourself and Destino too much credit here. I doubt seriously the "pro-life" movement is based upon having to report a misscarriage. But thanks for playing. Care to research how many abortion have occurred since 1972? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iheartskins Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 Originally posted by portisizzle Care to research how many abortion have occurred since 1972? Just curious how this is relevant to the discussion. Please explain and I'll post (or not) figures accordingly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
portisizzle Posted January 22, 2005 Author Share Posted January 22, 2005 Originally posted by FBChick You all laugh and scoff at him for this statement, when he actually hit the sole basis of the pro-choice movement. It's so much more then the right to abhort the fetus.. it's about deciding who has controll over the woman's body during the course of her pregnancy. Once you declare the fetus a life at conception, then you have to deal with all the legal ramifications that implies. Let me take his statement a step further. A young woman has sex with a man and then discovers she is pregnant. The relationship with the man ends badly and then seperate. Through the course of the pragnancy the woman has been adiment about the fact that she has no desire to be a mother and wants nothing to do with the baby. The man on the other hand has decided he wants the child and makes plans to raise it once it is born. During the second trimester the fetus dies and is still born. Does the man have the right to inquire about the cause of the death? Does he have the right to break Dr/ patient priviledge of the woman in order to find this information, because the only evidence is going to exist within her body. Does society have the right to determine when a woman has not taken enough steps to ensure the health and welfare of the fetus? Do they have the right to take preventative actions as we do with children from abusive households? Whose responsibility is it to care for the long term storage of left over embryos once a couples IVF is successful? You would no longer be able to just throw them out as they would be ruled a life. What if the refridgeration system at such a clinic died, killing all the embryos in storage? Can I charge the Dr for Manslaughter so many times over he'd be treated worse then a serial killer? Before you deem life begins at Conception and should be deemed murder if terminated, manslaughter if accidently terminated... answer me these questions and think about the far reaching consequences and tell me, as a woman, why I should feel safe. Madame, save yourself the despair. All I was asking was if killing a baby in the womb was considered murder. However, if I was that baby, I know that I would not feel safe from people with your point of view. That is for certain! You know my parents had me at a young age. i was born in June 1972. Under your standard, they would have had a legitimate argument to abort me because at 18 and 19 years old, how could they afford me? Well Dad quit college to work for the family and my Mother raised me. It was hard work and they took a major hit in living their life as teenager and young adults might like. Let me just proclaim for your benefit, that I think I was worth it. While I am at it I am going looking for those stats on how many abortions sonce 1972..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 Originally posted by The Evil Genius Shoot...I just turned 30...but to some of you, I have been 30 years old for over 9 months. Did you think why they track how far along a pregnancy is,conception begins a cycle that results in a newborn in every instance[unless of course something interupts the process].... Is that any different than a newborn becoming a adult? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iheartskins Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 Also, just so we're all clear on what Roe v. Wade stands for: In Roe v. wade, the Supreme Court found that a woman's right to choose to have an abortion was part of the fundamental constitutional right of privacy. After establishing that fundamental sonstitutional principle, the majoirty opinion in Roe rule that a government regulation of abortion practices could be upheld only if it was narrowly tailored to promote a compelling intererest.Source: John E. Nowak and Ronald D. Rotunda, Constitutional Law (6th ed. 2000) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
portisizzle Posted January 22, 2005 Author Share Posted January 22, 2005 Number of abortions..... Their success was rapid and total – resulting in abortion being legalized in all 50 states, for virtually any reason, and throughout all nine months of pregnancy. Since the Supreme Court's controversial Roe v. Wade decision in 1973, American doctors have performed well over 40 million abortions. That would be 40,000,000........hmmmm How many people voted in this years election.....be right back...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iheartskins Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 Originally posted by portisizzle Number of abortions..... Their success was rapid and total – resulting in abortion being legalized in all 50 states, for virtually any reason, and throughout all nine months of pregnancy. Since the Supreme Court's controversial Roe v. Wade decision in 1973, American doctors have performed well over 40 million abortions. That would be 40,000,000........hmmmm How many people voted in this years election.....be right back...... Source? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
portisizzle Posted January 22, 2005 Author Share Posted January 22, 2005 Originally posted by iheartskins Source? I got the quote from a conservative site. So for balance use this. It is the same information...... http://womensissues.about.com/cs/abortionstats/a/aaabortionstats.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
portisizzle Posted January 22, 2005 Author Share Posted January 22, 2005 Oh, we had about 120,000,000 people vote in this years election. So we are looking at about 35 to 40 percent ratio of people that voted this year to babies that were aborted since 1973. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iheartskins Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 Originally posted by portisizzle Oh, we had about 120,000,000 people vote in this years election. So we are looking at about 35 to 40 percent ratio of people that voted this year to babies that were aborted since 1973. Wait, fetuses that were aborted in 1996 could vote? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
portisizzle Posted January 22, 2005 Author Share Posted January 22, 2005 And a quote from this site..... There are approximately 46 million abortions conducted each year, 20 million of them obtained illegally. That would be close to 50 million abortions a year. Kinda brings this debate home to roost for me. That was a nice divergence. Now we can go back to this issue of murder and unborn children. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
portisizzle Posted January 22, 2005 Author Share Posted January 22, 2005 Originally posted by iheartskins Wait, fetuses that were aborted in 1996 could vote? On this particular point I am looking for perspective. And I am satisfied with my conclusion that a boat load of abortions happened. For further perspective, how many Jews died during WW2. I will look this up tomorrow. I am tired now.:puke: :cold: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 Originally posted by portisizzle And a quote from this site..... There are approximately 46 million abortions conducted each year, 20 million of them obtained illegally. That would be close to 50 million abortions a year. Kinda brings this debate home to roost for me. That was a nice divergence. Now we can go back to this issue of murder and unborn children. Wow, fa real, could you imagine 50 million babies being added to this country every year? To put that into perspective, there's like 200+ million in the country right now. As to the original question: it depends on the age of the fetus. If the embroy is just created and the thing's like the size of a lima bean, then no, it isn't murder. If the woman is like in her 9th month of pregnancy, then yea, you could make an arugement for that being murder. :2cents: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 Originally posted by skin-n-vegas Someday, Roe V Wade will evolve into a Pro-Life decision. (as the point of viability increases with medical technology) Along with the affects that new 3D sonograms will have on the general public's perception of the child within the mother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevenaa Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 With current laws if a woman was on the top step to the abortion clinic and a pro-life activist ran up and punched her in the stomach and said HERE its done Killer.... I just can't follow this logic, although I don't doubt it is probably accurate. To have murder, you have to first have a live being. There is no selectivity here. The baby/fetus is either alive or it isn't. All desicions beyond this have to be based on that fact. I don't deny that we'd have many new issues to decide if the baby/fetus is deemed to be life at conception, but it is what it is. We can't deny it's life just because we don't want to deal with the future issues it would cause. If those abortion numbers are accurate, why the high number of illegal abortions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
portisizzle Posted January 22, 2005 Author Share Posted January 22, 2005 Originally posted by stevenaa I just can't follow this logic, although I don't doubt it is probably accurate. To have murder, you have to first have a live being. There is no selectivity here. The baby/fetus is either alive or it isn't. All desicions beyond this have to be based on that fact. I don't deny that we'd have many new issues to decide if the baby/fetus is deemed to be life at conception, but it is what it is. We can't deny it's life just because we don't want to deal with the future issues it would cause. If those abortion numbers are accurate, why the high number of illegal abortions? Read up on the Lacy Perterson muder trial for your answer to the first point. And why do you question the abortion numbers? They came from a liberal woman's site. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevenaa Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 Read up on the Lacy Perterson muder trial for your answer to the first point. The fact that a court decision can come to the conclusion that at the same stage of pregnancy you can have legal abortion or a charge of murder doesn't make it logical. If the fetus is deemed as having life, than abortion is legalized murder. And why do you question the abortion numbers? They came from a liberal woman's site. Not questioning them one way or the other. Wondering why there are so many illegal abortions, as my question stated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thiebear Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 the difference being: The womans right to choose = privacy based on the previous decision. The right to beat her until the child dies was never ruled upon as a valid way to enforce her privacy last i checked... and the new ruling of killing her and her child and pretending to fish is sooooo not covered... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 Originally posted by stevenaa The fact that a court decision can come to the conclusion that at the same stage of pregnancy you can have legal abortion or a charge of murder doesn't make it logical. If the fetus is deemed as having life, than abortion is legalized murder. Not questioning them one way or the other. Wondering why there are so many illegal abortions, as my question stated. In my mind it is legalised murder,much the same as denial of life support....Before I get attacked let me say I do not envy anyone that makes these kind of choices. While I do not support abortion ,I recently had to CHOOSE whether to allow my mothers life to end[something I hope no one else ever has to do] the only comfort I have is believing I followed HER wishes..../cold comfort at times indeed.. ......As to illegal abortions ,there are the do it yourselfers and non liscenced practitioners with anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
portisizzle Posted January 22, 2005 Author Share Posted January 22, 2005 Originally posted by stevenaa If the fetus is deemed as having life, than abortion is legalized murder. Hmmmmmmm.........:shhh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinsfan51 Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 Originally posted by Liberty Why don't you stop going these round about ways and just define when life starts. That will make everything more simple. What did you vote, Liberty? I'm interested to know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prosperity Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 Originally posted by skinsfan51 What did you vote, Liberty? I'm interested to know. option 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinsfan51 Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 Originally posted by Liberty option 3 Wise option if you really don't know. Here is something to consider for everyone. Let's say a woman is in the 39th week of her pregnancy (one week before the due date), ok? Let's say that something traumatic happens in her life and she considers the following two legal options. 1. She can have an abortion. 2. She can deliver the baby by c-section (at that point the baby is fully formed and can live very easily) According to the law, if she chooses option #1 she's only aborting a "fetus." Pro-"Choice" groups stand behind her right to "choose." If she chooses option #2 she's delivers a "baby." Her family rallies around her and welcomes the new life into the world. At what point did "it" go from fetus to baby? After birth? So breathing determines life? So 15 seconds before it is taken from her womb it's not alive? Consider how difficult it is to retain the non-personal label "fetus" in light of this very realistic situation. It's a baby. Always has been; always will be. "I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly. I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made." -King David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thiebear Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 Without getting all religious like. I helped make the baby. I am now the single dad raising the babies. I like my job.. Why can't I as 50% of the contributing factor have 26% of the say in if the baby stays alive: I keep the baby and you owe me nothing... walk away and have just as much to do with "it" as if 'you' were never there.... why is that such a hard thing to determine judiciusly... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prosperity Posted January 23, 2005 Share Posted January 23, 2005 Originally posted by Thiebear Without getting all religious like. I helped make the baby. I am now the single dad raising the babies. I like my job.. Why can't I as 50% of the contributing factor have 26% of the say in if the baby stays alive: I keep the baby and you owe me nothing... walk away and have just as much to do with "it" as if 'you' were never there.... why is that such a hard thing to determine judiciusly... It is about the mother having control of her own body. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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