Neophyte Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 There is alot of talk right now about next year and what the Skins need to do to improve as a team, specifically on offense. The most common suggestions seem linked to trading/cutting both Rod Gardener and Chris Samuels. I can see the reasons behind Gardener as he is very streaky and just as likely to drop a game winner (see his drop in the endzone against the Giants) as he is to catch it. However, I am puzzled by the seeming desire of most here to get rid of Samuels as well. Granted, he has a high salary and granted he has made some mistakes this year (but has reduced those compared to last year). However, he has also been noted by many commentators as largely returning to his "Pro Bowl form" of two or three years ago. Buges speaks very highly of him. He has continued to play pretty darn well while fighting off some minor injuries (notably his ankle the last few weeks). So what is the problem here? I have asked in other threads and been ignored which would seem to indicate that people don't really know why they want to get rid of Samuels, they just do. I don't consider this rational or smart. Even average LT's are hard to come by in the league much less a guy who stonewalled Simeon Rice opening day largely by himself. Is this desire to go with someone else performance based? Is it because of his large cap number next year or maybe his unwillingness to renegotiate last off season? What is it? And if we do move him, who out there can realistically do a better job, either rookie draft pick or FA pickup? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfbovey Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 Samuels started off the season on a good note by shutting out Simeon Rice, but he's regressed a bit in the last 6-7 games. He's had trouble with speed rushers especially. KGB, James Hall, Alex Brown... all gave him fits. I wouldn't mind him coming back, because I think the team needs continuity. But He needs to agree to a new deal... and play a bit better to boot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TLusby Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 Originally posted by Neophyte Is it because of his large cap number next year or maybe his unwillingness to renegotiate last off season? What is it? I believe his play has been slightly below average and has allowed sacks and has not fired off the ball on running plays. He looks slow and comments were made that his weight room performance has decreased. The man plays like a $750k player. Even if we renegotiate he is due like $17M over the next two years which is what he would require as upfront. The best we could do is spread it over six years with league minimum but I doubt he would do it and is he worth it? I believe we cut our loses and move on. If he were injured and playing poorly and showed great work ethic in the gym I would consider him. I believe he is already past his prime and is soft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweepea436 Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 I think his $$ figures are the driving force here. We know very well (unfortunately) that you can't throw any average Joe on the OL and expect to be a contender, so I don't think it's preferable to see him go, just makes sense money whise to either restructure, or free up his space to get more for that money. ........I think that made sense........hmm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neophyte Posted November 30, 2004 Author Share Posted November 30, 2004 Originally posted by dfbovey Samuels started off the season on a good note by shutting out Simeon Rice, but he's regressed a bit in the last 6-7 games. He's had trouble with speed rushers especially. KGB, James Hall, Alex Brown... all gave him fits. I wouldn't mind him coming back, because I think the team needs continuity. But He needs to agree to a new deal... and play a bit better to boot. Alex Brown beat a TE all day long, if you will remember. That is largely the reason that the Skins released Rasby. He did a horrible job on Brown. KJB had 3 tackles and 1 sack against us with GB holding a lead so no one had to respect the run any longer. Add to that Brunell's seeming inate ability to rollout INTO trouble and I have a tough time blaming Samuels for that 1 sack. James Hall had 3 tackles and NO sacks. I still don't see an issue here... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sammino Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 Originally posted by Neophyte Alex Brown beat a TE all day long, if you will remember. That is largely the reason that the Skins released Rasby. He did a horrible job on Brown. KJB had 3 tackles and 1 sack against us with GB holding a lead so no one had to respect the run any longer. Add to that Brunell's seeming inate ability to rollout INTO trouble and I have a tough time blaming Samuels for that 1 sack. James Hall had 3 tackles and NO sacks. I still don't see an issue here... Then open your eyes, he has played below average for three years now and please dont tell me he was a alternate to the pro bowl because that was totally based off of reputation and not performance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mufumonk Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 It has more to do with Dockery being a liability than anything to do with Samuels abilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AzSkinsFan63 Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 Samuels stunk up the joint Sunday... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neophyte Posted November 30, 2004 Author Share Posted November 30, 2004 Originally posted by sammino Then open your eyes, he has played below average for three years now and please dont tell me he was a alternate to the pro bowl because that was totally based off of reputation and not performance. My eyes are completely open. For the previous two seasons he was playing for a college coach in a college blocking scheme that UM could have beaten. Samuels himself admits to not really being into it last year because he knew they were going to get pounded. My eyes tell me the guy has played much better this year and that we need interior help a whole lot worse than we need to replace Samuels. Originally posted by AzSkinsFan63 Samuels stunk up the joint Sunday... How do you figure this? The sacks I saw either came from the right side of the line or came on looping stunts while Samuels had his man contained. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonnyRules Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 I have been pulling all year for Chris to turn it around. I thought with Bugle coming back and him being healthy that he had a good shot. My perspective on Samuels changed. At the beginning of the year he seemed to regain some of his old form. Watching the offensive line the last four or five games I've noticed he has been getting beat on a regular basis and is missing way too many assignments to boot. I heard, but don't know for sure, that he also wants big money, like Ogden. Unfortunately his play the last two years does not warrant such a contract. So my question is "why does he want the big money when his play has been average at best?" Is he selfish or is he holding back? Either way, I don't believe Samuels has a realistic perspetive regarding his own talent. I've also heard about trading Chris for a 1st round draft choice. Considering his play, who would be silly enough to make that deal? Chis is an enigma to me. I love the guy, but his actions speak louder than his word. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monte51Coleman Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 Chris Samuels cap hit this year is 8.75m, next year it is 9.6m, and in 2006 it is 11.3m. (Figures used are taken from this forum) I believe that his is a serviceable LT. But he is in no way, shape, or form performing at the level of a #3 overall selection much less in a way to justify the dollars that he is being paid. I would guess that those kind of dollars are what the best LT's in the business get. CS is not at that level. If he is as good as you think he is then there should be a line of GM's waiting to trade for him and there would be no reason for him to renegotiate his current deal. As I see it he is just not worth the money he is making even if he extends and we create more salary cap magic on that number. But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sammino Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 Actually he hasnt played much better this year.. He had a good first couple games but has went back to the form of previous seasons the rest of the season.. It is pretty obvious how to beat Samuels in a one on one situation.. He is unable to handle any kind of speed rusher. He looks awfully slow out there and often doesnt seem to know who to block.. He has been penalized a bit less this year but the line as a whole as been penalized about the same as previous seasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sammino Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 We may be able to pry a late 1st rounder for him or a mid 1st rounder accompanied by our 3rd rounder... LT are in high demand, so I would not be surprised to see someone take a gamble on him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDSKNfaithfull Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 People in here are dreamers. His cap number is high yes but he can re do his deal. Left Tackles do not grow on trees and he is still a very good tackle. EARTH TO SKINS FANS all tackles have problems with speed rushers every single team in the nfl with the exception of maybe 3 teams complain about their left tackle. Flozell Adams was a pro bowl LT he gets beat all the time, Tre Thomas is a very good LT he gets beat weekly etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 The problem with folks that have a porblem with Samuels, is they are unrealistic. This team has holes on offense, big ones. You can't fix anything if you take huge steps backward by elminating your starting left tackle. This is one of the most expensive positions to fill in free agency, and requires a first round pick to repair through the draft in most cases. In order to get rid of Samuels we would have to not fill one or more of the other holes. I don't see that as a good thing at all. Restructure his contract and move on to fix the guard, center, and WR problems. We can look at left tackle when we have the luxary of considering an upgrade. Right now we should be looking to stop the ship from taking on water, not getting a new paint job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sammino Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 Originally posted by RDSKNfaithfull People in here are dreamers. His cap number is high yes but he can re do his deal. Left Tackles do not grow on trees and he is still a very good tackle. EARTH TO SKINS FANS all tackles have problems with speed rushers every single team in the nfl with the exception of maybe 3 teams complain about their left tackle. Flozell Adams was a pro bowl LT he gets beat all the time, Tre Thomas is a very good LT he gets beat weekly etc. yes but they dont get paid 10mil a year.. Even if he does rework his contract, you think he is going to be willing to go less than Jansen is being paid? Honeslty, i think Jansen is a much better player and the only way i see Samuels sticking is if he gets paid less than him because he has definitely not been as good as Jansen in past years (even though he gets beat but not by everyone). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dead Money Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 Someone who is going to command the salary cap space that he supposedly is... is not worth 2-3 penalties a game. I agree that his blocking has gotten better this year but I am sick and tired of his false starts. He is not the valuable commodity he thinks he is with the false start problem. It always seems that we get some momentum and then BAM , false start from a rookie or backup or something then BAM another from good 'ol Chris Samuels. In the past few games I have seen him standing around during a play which really ticks me off. Hit somebody, don't just stand there trying to not get hurt... He owes it to redskins fans to stick around and command only a reasonable salary and bonus and he will try to break the bank and will either get franchised, released or traded... Just one fans view of it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boss_Hogg Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 He should restructure his contract, I'm a firm believer in the idea that if the player sucks, he should owe the team money just like how the team gives out money if the player does well by virtue of X amount of cathers or X amount of tackles. :gaintsuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonard Washington Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 you guys think he's we're bad at his position now. its going to get worse when we cut/trade him. seriously you don't think a rookie is going to come in a play at a high level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronMike Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 As I have said before: Remember Shar Pourdaneh! Yes, Samuels has played poorly, as has the entire offensive line. We expected (hoped?) that Bugel would fix that, but he has not. Samuels was beat at least twice (I think three times) on Sunday by loops and stunts. He could not react quickly enough to block the looping defender. That led to sacks. He also has a tendency to commit false starts. Worse, these penalties are at home! I can accept a false start on the road when the home filed crowd starts rocking, but not at home. Yes, his cap number and salary demands are too high. BUT who do we have to replace him?He is far better than anyone else I can remember at that position over the past decade. We must keep him, and Bugel must 'coach him up'. :2cents: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neophyte Posted November 30, 2004 Author Share Posted November 30, 2004 Originally posted by Mufumonk It has more to do with Dockery being a liability than anything to do with Samuels abilities. I have thought the same thing several times... Originally posted by RDSKNfaithfull People in here are dreamers. His cap number is high yes but he can re do his deal. Left Tackles do not grow on trees and he is still a very good tackle. EARTH TO SKINS FANS all tackles have problems with speed rushers every single team in the nfl with the exception of maybe 3 teams complain about their left tackle. Flozell Adams was a pro bowl LT he gets beat all the time, Tre Thomas is a very good LT he gets beat weekly etc. Thanks for going straight to my point. He is better than most LT's in the league, it would take a small fortune to upgrade and we would have to forgo other more imparitive needs to do so. Originally posted by sammino yes but they dont get paid 10mil a year.. Even if he does rework his contract, you think he is going to be willing to go less than Jansen is being paid? Honeslty, i think Jansen is a much better player and the only way i see Samuels sticking is if he gets paid less than him because he has definitely not been as good as Jansen in past years (even though he gets beat but not by everyone). No doubt his contract does need to be restuctured. No LT is worth better than 10% of your teams payroll for a year. Not even Ogden or Pace. At least not IMHO. Restructure it and lace it with incentives but don't dump the guy. We need to be plugging other holes, not creating new ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neophyte Posted November 30, 2004 Author Share Posted November 30, 2004 Originally posted by IronMike Samuels was beat at least twice (I think three times) on Sunday by loops and stunts. He could not react quickly enough to block the looping defender. That led to sacks. Did you watch the game? Samuels was locked up one on one everytime the Steelers ran a looping stunt to his side. He could not have picked up the blitzing defender without releasing the man he was responsible for. That is what the Steelers do. They bring one more man than you have guys to block with and they do it from odd places so you can't see it or don't expect it. Don't get on Samuels about the sacks on Sunday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taylor Made Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 You want to know why Ramsey had NO time to throw when he threw that interception? Chris Samuels got beat one on one by VON OELFHOFFEN. Nobody should be defending Samuels after yesterdays' game. Yes I would love to see Samuels in a Skins uniform, only for about HALF of what he is being paid right now however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibbs4Life Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 i think im starting to agree with the neophyte. Samuels has been playing better than The previous years with spurrier but he still is have a problem picking up blitzes. I dont mind that he has trouble with speed rushes(although he did do a great job against simeon rice), lots of teams do but hes has got to get better picking up blitzes. And cut the false starts man there just rediculous. I think most people here dont dislike samuels they just think hes way beyond overpaid. There is no way in hell anyone can justify paying him ogden, pace money. Hes worth maybe luke petigout money, or kyle turley. Uper 5 mil but nowhere near 9 mil. But if he recstructers i dont think to many people would want him gone. But right now we feel about samuels how we felt about bruce smith and deion sanders and mark brunell. Not putting out like the money weve paid for him. We want more guys like washington and griffen and springs. Guys who are worth every penny of there big contract. Maybe playing better than there paid. Another aspect i completely agree with you on is that waste of space dockery. Being big fat and stupid is no way to go through life. The guy is awful, he cant pull well and when he does he never gets the right guy. Almost worthless in pass protection. The only thing hes good at is run blocking. We dont need just a run blocker. We need everything. Dockery will never EVER be anything more than just a good run blocker. And hes almost as bad as samuels at picking up the blitz. Thats why i think we need to pick elton brown in the draft, hes everything dockery is not. Fast, actually pancakes people, can pull, and can pass block. Not to mention the best run blocker in college football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neophyte Posted November 30, 2004 Author Share Posted November 30, 2004 Originally posted by johnyquest You want to know why Ramsey had NO time to throw when he threw that interception? Chris Samuels got beat one on one by VON OELFHOFFEN. Nobody should be defending Samuels after yesterdays' game. Yes I would love to see Samuels in a Skins uniform, only for about HALF of what he is being paid right now however. Time was less a factor in that pass than Ramsey having no room in front of him to step into that throw. It was all arm which is why it fell short and was picked off. And while I will be the first to say that a player can contribute in ways that don't show on the stat sheet, Von Olhoffen had a goose egg against the Skins on Sunday. No tackles, no assists and no sacks. Not saying Samuels could not have played a better game but those numbers indicate he did not play a bad game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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