Sailor Posted June 5, 2001 Share Posted June 5, 2001 I have to admit I've enjoyed watching you go 12 rounds with Art. I've got it scored 116 - 112 for Art, but you got in some shots and you maybe even wobbled him one time. Anyway, it's good for Art. He's been winning so many by first round KO's that it did him good, I'm sure, to have to go the distance for once. But what say you we drop the smack and talk a little football?<br /><br />I'm wondering what is your take on your new QB? Is BJ the Great White Hope or your Deion Sanders?<br /><br />Forget his penchant for getting injured. Assuming he is healthy for the season, is he your savior? If I remember right, his QB rating last year was within a tenth of a point or two of Shaun's. <br /><br />A lot of us here were not overly sorry to see Brad go. He had a nasty habit of throwing an int at a critical time and his long throws seemed to have the hang time of an average NFL punt. Yet a lot of Buc fans think he will lead you to the promised land. What is your take?<br /> <br /> [ January 25, 2002: Message edited by: Die Hard ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beaudry Posted June 5, 2001 Share Posted June 5, 2001 Well, it would help if Art would be such an a$$hole. Not that either one of them is very pleasant. ------------------ ShonyX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bucs92 Posted June 5, 2001 Share Posted June 5, 2001 I think I want a recount from the New Jersey judge...... and one man's entertainment is another's annoyance.... Sailor, BJ is an interesting piece. People are all agog in Tampa and he is being annointed our savior (with the quarterbacking we've had for the last 25 years, being a savior amounts to NFL average or better.) My take is he will be fine. I think he is probably the 11th or 12th best QB in the league at this stage. He has proven that when he is healthy and is on a team that has weapons (Vikes, '99 Skins), he can be very productive. I saw some of the bad INTs he threw last year,but it's hard to blame a guy when you have no interior offensive line and your #1 receiving target is gone. I watched the Bucs-Skins game and it seemed like the pocket collapsed in his face an awful lot. I won't lie. I'm a little worried about all the expectations and hoopla. I think we have a very good team and BJ is a critical piece, but these guys need to learn to play together on offense (under the third new OC in as many years), and we have the 2nd toughest schedule in the league. All I know is that it will be interesting. We open in Dallas and I'm going! ------------------ Hey, didn't you used to be the Boston Redskins (shaddup!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted June 5, 2001 Share Posted June 5, 2001 We'll be cheering for ya. (Have you read? JJ thinks the Boys will win 10 or so this year). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Posted June 5, 2001 Share Posted June 5, 2001 One thing I think is critical for Brad is that he doesn't have a Norv Turner coaching him in Tampa. While I'm sure many of my compadres here are barely supressing their snickering, I do believe that Norv and Brad had a very good relationship, that Norv was able to customize the offense to Brad's strengths while masking his weaknesses for as long as he could. Brad was also successful because Davis commanded so much respect from the defense. If you chart Brad's success with the Skins it coincided nicely with Davis's meteoric ride to the top. As went the running game, so went Brad. And the reason was the play action pass. Westbrook and Connell had career years because of it. Interestingly, you are likely to find that most of the long yardage came on run/pass downs, and that Centers got most of his receptions on passing downs. In other words, when the defense could play pass, we became far more conservative and a dump off to Centers was the likely result. He's not the kind of QB who'll throw a 17 yd completion on 3rd and 15. He is the kind of QB who'll throw a 6 yd completion on 3rd and 8. But he'll throw a 25 yd completion on 2nd and 3. Now it's true that most teams need the running game to complement and set up the pass, but I think that Brad (and the Skins) were even more dependent on that under Norv. So my recommendation, Bucs92, is to look at your running attack if you want to get a handle on Brad. And I'd also be curious about the acumen of your offensive coaches. [ by Terry on June 05, 2001.] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted June 5, 2001 Share Posted June 5, 2001 Nice summary, Terry. That describes the way I felt about our offensive performances under Norv, no matter who was on the field. (And that's why I haven't been impressed with our offense, no matter where we were in the stats). And as to the belief that Brad looks better with a running game, the same can be said of any QB. Anybody who thinks a running game can't make a good QB look better should talk to John Elway. (A good defense helps, too). Fortunately for Brad, the Bucs HAVE a running game. (And a defense). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redman Posted June 5, 2001 Share Posted June 5, 2001 Brad's gonna do well if he stays healthy. He's got a very skilled receiving target in Keyshawn, and a good receiving back out of the backfield in Dunn. The play action will work there. I didn't blame him for last year's shaken confidence. His banged up WR corps - led by Connell! - did little to inspire confidence and had no #1 WR. We just couldn't afford to keep him. Be honest everybody, would you rather have kept Johnson or George? ------------------ "Loosen up, Sandy baby. You're just too damn tight!" - John Riggins to Supreme Court Justice Sandra Day O'Connor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bucs92 Posted June 5, 2001 Share Posted June 5, 2001 I agree the running game is key. The Bucs ran for over 2,000 yds last year, and hopefully will run for more this year. Brad has a #1 target this year, a kicking game, and a defense (though the Skins did their part in that department last year)......The key will be can the tackles (an average Jerry Wunsch on the right, below average Pete Pierson on the left, and a wild card in Kenyatta Walker) keep the heat off Brad so he can stay upright.....we'll see. Interesting analysis of the offense under Norv. I think anyone who would take George over BJ is nuts, even more so in a WCO. ------------------ Hey, didn't you used to be the Boston Redskins (shaddup!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ignatius J. Posted June 5, 2001 Share Posted June 5, 2001 nuts you say? George gives an offense more options. On 3rd and 10 with brad you can line up your defense at the stix and you'll probably stop him. George very well might decide that an 80 yard bomb is the play on 4th and inches, so you gotta defend against that too. Options. Hairless ofensive coordinators, but options. Brad Johnson was just too consistant last year and he was just consistently mediocre you knew exactly what he was gonna do and when he was gonna fall apart. With goerge you get to roll the dice a little and that means that we may actually WIN a close game in the 4th. I'm not gonna say Brad is worse than George, from what we have seen in DC Brad is the better QB, but we're gonna give george a shot and lets hope it works. My vote is for george, but i think that's just because its what we've got and i just want to move on. Stupid September so far away i could just !@$!@#$ -DB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted June 5, 2001 Share Posted June 5, 2001 In a vacuum, no one would even consider taking Brad Johnson over Jeff George. The players are so far apart in physical ability, only one choice could be made by any football fan. Football is not played in a vacuum, and certainly, Brad is a more "heady" player, and likely a better leader than is George. George has certainly had excellent performances with various teams and has the ability to put up superior numbers, but, if Norv Turner was my coach, I'd certainly prefer Johnson over George as my quarterback. But, in an environment where Dungy or Schottenheimer is the coach, few would select Brad over George. Other than the year with the Vikes and four-steps heave, George has performed at levels with coaches who ran precise and disciplined offensive systems. With Bugel in Oakland and early on with Jones in Atlanta. Where he was an equal with the coach, as Brad and Norv were in D.C., in terms of thinking. In Washington, Marty is King. For better or worse. And, when George has a coach that sets the plan and will put him on his keister if he starts picking his own plays, as he did a year ago under both Turner and Robiske, then the team is in trouble. Against Dallas, George kept calling tree routes where four receivers were doing go patterns. It was horrid. And that's what George would do if he happened to be an offensive coordinator. With a coach who requires discipline, it's likely George's physical aspects will take precedent over his mental lackings, and that's a good fit for us. Hell, Mark Rypien won a Super Bowl. Trent Dilfer has, when supported, finally, by a devestating defense and sound coaching. George is easily a better player than most players at his position. He lacks self-control required to be memorable. But, he has had memorable years when the coach on site has imparted that self-control for him. Hell, if George plays three years, throws for JUST 10K in yardage and wins a Super Bowl, he'll probably be a Hall of Famer, by the numbers and end career success. No one doubts he can play. And, he's better than Brad physically. Brad's just MUCH better than George mentally. Under Schottenheimer, I'm not sure Brad's smarts mattered. Under Norv and Denny before, that trait did. ------------------ Doom is in the box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Posted June 5, 2001 Share Posted June 5, 2001 5-10 yard out patterns often take much more arm strenth than a 30-40 yard bomb. What you could get with Davis (and successful WCO must have a good running game), is corners having to play soft since Davis could create a situation with safeties up so no deep help. The ability to flick the ball accurately into the mid-range flats could be very important in this version of the WCO. BJ could throw down the pipe but his throws into the mid-range flats left something to be desired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bucs92 Posted June 5, 2001 Share Posted June 5, 2001 OK, pass out the shovels boys, because this Jeff George nonsense is getting annoying.....He had good years Artie? Outside of 1 partial season with the Vikes, when exactly were these good years? A guy who loses 2/3 of his games over a pretty long career doesn't have too many good years. And don't give me that "he was on bad teams with bad coaches baloney.....look at Flutie's record in Chicago and with the Patriots. He's won everywhere he's been. You see, football isn't played in a vacuum Artie, and even with all the wondrous physical tools, Flutie or BJ is an easy call over George. The guy panics under pressure, throws too many INTs, and thinks a short out is 25 yds...How he can run a WCO is a mystery to me. You guys don't think he's better than BJ....you are PRAYING he's better and responds to discipline. Hey he's in his 30s and has always been a clubhouse cancer..... Wait till Marcellus Wiley gets in his face in September... ------------------ Hey, didn't you used to be the Boston Redskins (shaddup!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirk Diggler Posted June 5, 2001 Share Posted June 5, 2001 Actually in Art's defense, he had 2 Super years (Statiscally speaking) 1 with Atlanta and then Oakland. The one year he took Atlanta to the playoffs but the next year Oakland was sabotaged by one of the worst defenses in recent memory. His great year in Oakland he was running a very similar offense to our current system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen-like Todd Posted June 5, 2001 Share Posted June 5, 2001 This doesnt merit an in depth discussion, but its pretty damn obvious that the Redskins organization kept the Quarterback they felt was best able to lead them going forward. If you've been watching, you know that Brad tailed off badly towards the end of the 99 campaign, and never regained his early touch. I'm still convinced he has a bum arm, actually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bucs92 Posted June 5, 2001 Share Posted June 5, 2001 Well, I'm sure it is a boring comparison for some of you now that you've chosen your horse, but there sure was alot of nashing of teeth by Skins fans on other boards when the call was made. You can be as glib as you want about the best QB to lead the team, but: 1) George is a career loser 2) He is a vertical game passer going into some "modified" WCO 3) He thinks a progression is "go deep" 4) His career rating is barely over 80 How can you feel comfortable about that? ------------------ Hey, didn't you used to be the Boston Redskins (shaddup!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Posted June 5, 2001 Share Posted June 5, 2001 hmmm... let's take a look at your QB, Brad Johnson: 1) Last year, he threw 11 TDs to 15 ints. 2) His QB rating was 75.6 3) His int% was a whopping 4.1 4) He fumbled 5 times 5) He averaged 6 points per game How can you feel comfortable about that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NavyDave Posted June 5, 2001 Share Posted June 5, 2001 George is a QB who played on perennial losers. Just like those ex Buc QBs, George just needed to leave a losing situation and find the right team and I believe we are that team. George's propensity to go deep also has to have defenses preparing for that also. It's not like he doesnt have a cannon to throw the long ball, so is arm should force defesnes to play soft ------------------ Yes I'm paid to think and I need a raise Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bucs92 Posted June 5, 2001 Share Posted June 5, 2001 Here's how I feel comfortable Terry: 1) Last year was an anomaly for BJ, look at his stats for the prior 5 seasons and you'll see consistent ratings in the mid to upper '80s. 2) Last year was an anomaly because he had no receivers who could get open and lost his center, Tre and then Sims during the course of the season. Joe Montana couldn't have moved that team. I'd feel worse if I had a QB who's GOOD year was an anomaly, who's lost 2/3 of his career starts, and who's passer rating was below 80 for 7 of his 11 seasons. Oh, and he doesn't play well with others, either. Thank God for Husak.... ------------------ Hey, didn't you used to be the Boston Redskins (shaddup!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bucs92 Posted June 5, 2001 Share Posted June 5, 2001 Navy, 1) George is a LOSER, period. Flutie played on lousy Bears and Patriots teams and he still won. When George wins, it's a fluke. 2) Teams don't play soft D against him at all! They pummel him because they know he gets happy feet and just chucks the ball downfield------see MNF game vs Bucs in 1999. 3) Convince yourself all you want, but I'm betting you won't like JG so much this time next year. ------------------ Hey, didn't you used to be the Boston Redskins (shaddup!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ignatius J. Posted June 5, 2001 Share Posted June 5, 2001 eh bucs, i wouldn't bad mouth george too much. I see a trend. Brad Plays in Minn. Brad Goes to Wa. George starts in Minn. Brad goes to tampa George starts in Wa. get the drift? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted June 5, 2001 Share Posted June 5, 2001 Bucs92, if you are going to continue being interesting to teach, you at least have to demonstrate the capacity to grasp the topic. It's not MY fault you don't know what George has done in his career. I can't be blamed because you don't know that prior to the year in Minnesota, George had years throwing the ball of 3,700 yards, 4,100 yards and 3,900 yards. George has the capability that exceeds Brad's. Brad has better mental awareness for the game. And when you need a thinking quarterback, as Turner did and Green did, personally, I'd take Brad, because Brad is better able to take what's given. But, given the Redskins offense that should be built around Davis, and a strict environment that produced the numbers mentioned above, George shouldn't have difficulty being a successful starter in Washington. Washington took the right player under the present circumstances, because, unlike Brad, when no receiver can get open, George can still make a downfield completion. Brad is a frontrunner. He does well when his team is dictating the playcalling and pace. He does poorly when HE has to come through and perform. Tampa is built to set the pace. They have a defense that will prevent Brad from having to show the skills required to win. I would probably have taken Brad over George if I was a Tampa fan. He is a better fit there. George is a superior fit here, because he can perform and play when his skills are required to make something happen. He's not had many opportunities to demonstrate that, on teams of limited capability. But, even last year, against the Rams, he single-handedly WON that game with a passing display Brad can only dream of accomplishing. Given our needs, George is clearly a better fit. That's why he's here. ------------------ Doom is in the box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bucs92 Posted June 5, 2001 Share Posted June 5, 2001 uh, Artie, You've got to learn before you can teach sport, and you're still stuck in Kindergarten when it comes to the NFL. I wish I could see the look on your face after this season. I'll have to imagine it from the posts. To defend 3 seasons out of 11 for a QB is idiocy. What QB hasn't Moss and Carter made look good? We'll take on the other 2 seasons once you chew on that. OH! and George single-handedly beat the Rams??!??!!! Artie.....you mean those deadly Rams,with the worst defense in the league and no Kurt Warner? Hey, wasn't Faulk out too for that game? Boy, you are right. George is a winner. Study harder,cupcake... ------------------ Hey, didn't you used to be the Boston Redskins (shaddup!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Die Hard Posted June 5, 2001 Share Posted June 5, 2001 Bucs92, Let's see if I got your points straight. Johnson's subpar 2000 season was an anomaly right? Mostly to blame on the lack of a true #1 receiver and an injury plagued interior offensive line. So let's not diminish the accomplishments of Jeff George with the very same talent. No Kurt Warner or Marshall Faulk does not diminish the ability of the Rams defense. Besides, the Rams offense under Trent Green's guidance was still putting plenty of points on the board. Without a doubt Brad Johnson is an upgrade over Shaun King. A savior he is not. Nor is he a leader. If he truly was, last year would've been a great year (ie. contract year) to show it no? And he had a very solid defense to boot. The Redskins were wise not to spend the money Johnson was demanding. Jeff George is an adequate alternative. I for one do not think Johnson will thrive in Tampa; although the team should fare very well. Tampa doesn't have the 0-line to dominate the line of scrimmage and I'm not confident of Warrick Dunn's ability as a feature back as a result. Unless defenses respect the run, Johnson is going to have a hard time with safeties helping out in coverage. Bucs fans should especially know this ------------------ I would personally like to thank Blade for giving me "The Squire" rank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Die Hard Posted June 6, 2001 Share Posted June 6, 2001 Also... - I think Brad Johnson is underrated as a mobile QB. - I think Brad Johnson is overrated in his decision making. With the exception of his first few games in Washington, how many times had we seen Brad Johnson simply throw the ball away instead of forcing the pass. All I have to say is Bucs fans better hope they're not losing late in the game with possession on the game-winning drive That's what distinguishes the type of QB worth the big $$$ and long-term contract. The Redskins aren't committed to George beyond this season. ------------------ I would personally like to thank Blade for giving me "The Squire" rank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bucs92 Posted June 6, 2001 Share Posted June 6, 2001 Die Hard, Let me see if I get YOUR points straight (apologies for correcting your fantasies with fact) 1) Losing Warner and Faulk doesn't affect the Rams' D......uh, well sure Mr.Hard, but the Rams' D happened to be the worst in the league, and without their 2 most valuable offensive weapons the team was pretty easy to beat.....did you ever look up Trent Green's RECORD as a starter? That rating doesn't equate to wins there, cupcake. 2) King should have played better because he was in a contract year? Ummm, Hard, King was a 2nd year player in 2000, contracts had nothing to do with it. 3) The Skins were smart not to pay BJ what he was demanding? Die-baby, BJ could've been had for a relative song the summer before the 2000 season if Danny boy would've negotiated instead of falling in love with the Cancer... 4) The Bucs don't have a dominant O-Line? I admit it's not the best in the league, but a) we ran for over 2,000 yards last year and Cosey Coleman and Kenyatta Walker are upgrades and c) we did have 2 pro bowlers....so let's just not dismiss the running game so fast, eh sport? 5) George did better with the same talent as BJ? My read of the stats is his rating was less than 80, he had 7 TDs and 6 INTs.....and oh, what was his record again Die? Yeesh....one more stupid statement and I'd swear you were Artie... ------------------ Hey, didn't you used to be the Boston Redskins (shaddup!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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