DieselPwr44 Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 I wonder how Moore and media people of his ilk would have portrayed FDR,Eisenhower,Patton,MacArthur, etc. had they been around at the time of WWII ? There would be a life's worth of mockumentaries in that event alone for him to blather about. Is Moore the Joseph McCarthy of our time? Here lately,he seems like it........:2cents: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJWatson3 Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 you know, it's funny. most of the right-leaning posters swallow up every bit of info that foxnews spits out with glee... now when fox reports something positive about someone they don't like they dismiss it as trash... interesting. i for one also expet the movie to be the most influential and profitable documentary in history and it will have a GREAT impact on the upcoming election. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fmorris Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 Originally posted by NavyDave Yawn What a joke There is no way this anti american propaganda I hate Bush movie s going to be on par with the greatest movie of the millineum. Yawn? Why do I get the feeling your really gritting your teeth? :laugh: Just kidding with ya Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJWatson3 Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 Originally posted by ShonyX In the Columbine flick, anybody remember when he got a free gun at the bank? That was pure BS, but it fooled many people. actually your statment is pure BS. at the time you really could get a firearm from that bank in Michigan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilmer17 Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 It amazes me that people on the left who dismiss everything FoxNews puts out as partisan right wing spin take one editorial and procliam that they finally got something correct. Enlighten us as to how this movie will sway swing voters in swing states. You think undecideds in Ohio are going to flock to see it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
@DCGoldPants Posted June 16, 2004 Author Share Posted June 16, 2004 The people in Ohio are still waiting for their new jobs. They don't need this movie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJWatson3 Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 i think people from all over the country are gonna see it. period. $200 million domestic gross. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilmer17 Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 Oh right. The whole "jobless recovery" thing. Kerry still trying to make that dog hunt? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilmer17 Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 $200 million domestic gross. bwahahahaha. Willing to make a small wager? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJWatson3 Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 this link is from North Country Financial Group http://www.ncfinancial.com/riflesarticle.htm "Marketing weapon Michigan bank offers rifles, shotguns in lieu of interest 01/26/2001 Bloomberg News Open a bank account, get a gun. That's the deal at North Country Financial Corp. in Traverse City, Mich., which gives away rifles and shotguns in lieu of the interest that normally accompanies accounts. Put as little as $869 in a 20-year certificate of deposit, and the bank will hand over a Weatherby Inc. Mark V Synthetic rifle that lists for $779. Deposit more and you have a choice of six Weatherby shotguns or a limited-edition rifle with walnut stock and oak-leaf engravings. The bank has 28 branches, mostly in Michigan's Upper Peninsula, and the guns-for-CDs program is a potent weapon in the fight for Americans' savings at a time of shrinking bank deposits. Banks across the country are offering everything from $50 gift certificates and books to casserole dishes and clocks – even toasters – to lure back customers and stem a seven-year decline in deposits as Americans shifted money into stocks and mutual funds. North Country's arrangement with Weatherby, which is based in Atascadero, Calif., is the brainchild of Ronald G. Ford, the bank's chairman and chief executive. "It's a high-end product that fits the lifestyle here," Mr. Ford said. Mr. Ford, 53, who owns seven Weatherby rifles and shotguns, hunts black bear and white-tailed deer in Michigan – and elk and mule deer in Colorado, pheasant in the Dakotas and moose in Canada. North Country, which started offering the Weatherbys more than 10 years ago, displays the guns on its branches' walls. In the Upper Peninsula, where some schools close for the start of hunting season in November, guns on the walls don't necessarily raise eyebrows. Nor in the suburbs of Detroit, apparently. "I'm not thrilled that they're giving out rifles, but I wouldn't join picket lines against it," said Marj Jackson Levin, president of Michigan Citizens for Handgun Control in Birmingham, a Detroit suburb. The program has brought in millions of dollars of deposits from customers in every U.S. state, said Rose Garvin, a North Country Bank & Trust manager and federal firearms license holder. North Country advertises its CDs in hunting and gun-enthusiast magazines, attracting both hunters and collectors. Its costliest giveaway, available with a $14,911 deposit in a three-year CD, is Weatherby's Athena Grade V Classic Field 12-gauge shotgun. It carries a suggested retail price of $2,919. The same $14,911 deposit in an average three-year account paying 5.48 percent interest yields $2,588 at the end of the term. And not to worry, the plan has never backfired. None of the guns has ever been used against the bank in a robbery." -------------------------------------- $200 million domestic, that's right. that's a strong opening long week ($75 million over two weekends), and the movie will be playing for months, up till the election. and sorry Kilmer, i don't gamble. not that i have any doubt about my claim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilmer17 Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 so what's the bet? doesnt have to be monetary. But there's not a chance in hell this thing grosses 200 million domestic. Unless Tim Robbins and Susan Sarandon go see it 20,000,000 times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJWatson3 Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 i dont' gamble. working in a casino will do that to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Funkyalligator Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 Oh....I have a feeling it will gross a lot of money domestically....I am seriously looking forward to the way Moore develops the ties between the Bushies and the Saudi Royal family........I don't trust the Saudis at all and the fact they are so well connected with our current administration makes me wonder..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
troyster Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 It wasn't that you couldn't get a gun in a bank. Moore tried to make it look like you could go into the bank, open an account, walk out with a gun. Which is untrue. Customers still had to go thru the same background check and waiting period as if they had gone to a store and bought the gun. Moore wanted it to look like it was ridiculously easy to get a gun when it really wasn't too different from going to the store and getting one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nerm Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 Originally posted by AJWatson3 this link is from North Country Financial Group http://www.ncfinancial.com/riflesarticle.htm "Marketing weapon Michigan bank offers rifles, shotguns in lieu of interest 01/26/2001 Bloomberg News Open a bank account, get a gun. That's the deal at North Country Financial Corp. in Traverse City, Mich., which gives away rifles and shotguns in lieu of the interest that normally accompanies accounts. Put as little as $869 in a 20-year certificate of deposit, and the bank will hand over a Weatherby Inc. Mark V Synthetic rifle that lists for $779. Deposit more and you have a choice of six Weatherby shotguns or a limited-edition rifle with walnut stock and oak-leaf engravings. The bank has 28 branches, mostly in Michigan's Upper Peninsula, and the guns-for-CDs program is a potent weapon in the fight for Americans' savings at a time of shrinking bank deposits. Banks across the country are offering everything from $50 gift certificates and books to casserole dishes and clocks – even toasters – to lure back customers and stem a seven-year decline in deposits as Americans shifted money into stocks and mutual funds. North Country's arrangement with Weatherby, which is based in Atascadero, Calif., is the brainchild of Ronald G. Ford, the bank's chairman and chief executive. "It's a high-end product that fits the lifestyle here," Mr. Ford said. Mr. Ford, 53, who owns seven Weatherby rifles and shotguns, hunts black bear and white-tailed deer in Michigan – and elk and mule deer in Colorado, pheasant in the Dakotas and moose in Canada. North Country, which started offering the Weatherbys more than 10 years ago, displays the guns on its branches' walls. In the Upper Peninsula, where some schools close for the start of hunting season in November, guns on the walls don't necessarily raise eyebrows. Nor in the suburbs of Detroit, apparently. "I'm not thrilled that they're giving out rifles, but I wouldn't join picket lines against it," said Marj Jackson Levin, president of Michigan Citizens for Handgun Control in Birmingham, a Detroit suburb. The program has brought in millions of dollars of deposits from customers in every U.S. state, said Rose Garvin, a North Country Bank & Trust manager and federal firearms license holder. North Country advertises its CDs in hunting and gun-enthusiast magazines, attracting both hunters and collectors. Its costliest giveaway, available with a $14,911 deposit in a three-year CD, is Weatherby's Athena Grade V Classic Field 12-gauge shotgun. It carries a suggested retail price of $2,919. The same $14,911 deposit in an average three-year account paying 5.48 percent interest yields $2,588 at the end of the term. And not to worry, the plan has never backfired. None of the guns has ever been used against the bank in a robbery." -------------------------------------- $200 million domestic, that's right. that's a strong opening long week ($75 million over two weekends), and the movie will be playing for months, up till the election. and sorry Kilmer, i don't gamble. not that i have any doubt about my claim. And now the rest of the story... from http://www.bowlingfortruth.com/bowlingforcolumbine/scenes/bank.htm Gunowners.org (a pro-gun source obviously) summarizes this scene accurately and eloquently saying "After the April 20 lead-in, Bowling begins an examination of middle-American gun culture, and indulges the bicoastal elite's snobbery toward American gun owners." It's an accurate depiction of the intent of the scene. The scene, dubbed “Michael at the Bank” is a good example of what can be brushed off and casually justified as what has been called 'artistic lying.' The scene opens in a branch of the North Country Bank, with Moore supposedly receiving a free gun in exchange for opening an account. North County Bank — like several other banks in the United States — allows people who buy a Certificate of Deposit to receive their interest in the form of a rifle or shotgun. The depositor thereby receives the full value of the interest immediately, rather than over a term of years. The scene has Moore discovering an ad in a local Michigan paper touting that if you open an account at North Country Bank & Trust, the bank (“more bang for your buck!”) will give you a gun. Moore goes to the bank, is greeted by a customer service representative and moves on to an unnamed teller who goes through the necessary paperwork (which looks ridiculously simple) for Moore to open an account. Moore goes through the process of buying the CD and answering questions for the federal Form 4473 registration sheet. Although a bank employee makes a brief reference to a "background check," the only thing we see is Moore filling out a form where he says he is not crazy, or a criminal - and of course, that he's white; although he stumbles on spelling the word 'Caucasian' (which I actually had to just fix on spell checker) to further paint the process as unofficial and unsafe while feeding his 'Stupid White Men' theme in the same punch. The audience never sees the process whereby the bank requires Moore to produce photo identification, then contacts the FBI for a criminal records check on Moore, before he is allowed to take possession of the rifle. Moments later, Moore is handed his new rifle in the North Country Bank & Trust lobby, at which point he asks another unnamed bank employee, “Do you think it’s a little dangerous handing out guns in a bank?” Before the employee can respond, Moore turns his inquiry into a punchline by immediately cueing Teenage Fanclub’s rendition of the song “Take the Skinheads Bowling,” the tune to which he marches out of the bank, to be followed by the opening credits featuring black and white footage of silly white folks bowling. It is a dazzling opening, full of energy, irony and Strangelovian absurdity. Only one problem plagues it's cleverness: It was staged. Staged scene Indeed, there's more, a lot more, to this story. In an interview, Jan Jacobson, the woman at this bank shown in the movie, says they were filmed for about an hour-and-a-half during which she explained everything to Moore in detail. But, the way things were presented in the film, Jacobson says, it looks like "a wham-bam thing." She says she resents the way she was portrayed as some kind of "backwoods idiot" mindlessly handing out guns. She says Moore deceived her into being interviewed by saying of their long-gun-give-away program: "This is so great. I'm a hunter, a sportsman, grew up in Michigan, am an NRA member." She says: "He went on and on and on saying this was the most unique program he'd ever heard of." This is the first example of how Moore completely deceives and manipulates his subjects to be made to look stupid in his film. Unfortunately, it is not the last and more unfortunately, an ignorant audience plays patsy to Moore's dishonest depiction. Jacobson says the movie is misleading because it leaves the impression that a person can come in, sign up and walk out with a gun. But, this is not done because no guns are kept at her bank, although one would think so. She says that ordinarily a person entitled to one of the long-guns must go to a gun-dealer where the gun is shipped. In fact, despite what BFC wants us to believe, Jacobson says there are no long-guns at her bank. The 500 guns mentioned in the movie are in a vault four hours away. But wait a second... Didn't I see some long guns sitting right there on the rack above her shoulder? Yes - you're not going crazy - those guns you saw (as shown in the picture up the page) are models. She says that Moore's signing papers in the film was just for show. His immediately walking out of the bank with a long-gun was allowed because "this whole thing was set up two months prior to the filming of the movie" when he had already complied with all the rules, including a background check. Jacobson says the bank's so-called "Weatherby Program" has "absolutely" been a smashing success. She says their corporate office was braced for some possible criticism because of BFC. But, they got only two calls -- and these were from people wanting to know the details of the "Weatherby Program" so they, too, could get their long-guns! A non-issue point in the first place So the audience is left with a smug sense of the pro-gun bank's careless craziness. Yet, aside to the falshoods the audience isn't aware of, just a moment's reflection on the given information shows that there is not the slightest danger. Aside from the thorough legal background check and paperwork we didn't see, there are fundamental common sense flaws to the scene. The process of getting a 'free gun' isn't quite as easy as Moore wants you to believe, and it's not dangerous unless the person tries to use the gun as a club and wants to be quickly caught by the police. To take possession of the gun, the depositor must: 1. Produce photo identification; making it inescapably certain that the robber would be identified and caught. 2. Give the bank at least a thousand dollars -- (an unlikely way to start a robbery) (1). 3. Spend at least a half hour at the bank, thereby allowing many people to see and identify him, and undergo an FBI background check, which would reveal criminal convictions disqualifying most of the people inclined to bank robbery. The label of this process being ridiculous is in fact ridiculous itself. A would-be robber could far more easily buy a handgun for a few hundred bucks on the black market, with no identification required, and would want to zip in and out of the bank as quick as possible. Also - the bank is a licensed firearms dealer - not shooting range. They don't hand bullets to you. Moore had to buy them later, as seen in the barbershop scene. If Moore brought his own bullets and tried to load them into the long-gun right there in the bank, it would be obvious and he'd be immediately stopped. The 'artistic lying' illustrates the genius of Bowling for Columbine, in that the movie does not explicitly make these obvious points about the safety of the North County Bank's program. Rather, the audience is simply encouraged to laugh along with Moore's apparent mockery of the bank, without realizing that the joke is on them for seeing danger where none exists. This theme is developed throughout the film. Don't be fooled. --------------- Stuff like this is why what Moore does should not be considered a documentary. He is showing things that could never happen unless he decides to set up a scene, with months of preparation, to make it possible. He should at least put the word “dramatization” or something to that effect at the bottom of the screen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beaudry Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 AJ, now you can read the above post and explain why you were wrong. After reading what really happened, what do you think of Moore now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy-the-Greek Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 Originally posted by AJWatson3 i dont' gamble. working in a casino will do that to you. Foxwoods or Mohegan Sun? The wager could be for a funny pic in your profile for a certain amount of posts. Like Kilmer would have to have a Democrats rule pic and Aj would have to have a Republicans rule pic.:laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckydevil Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 Just go to Spinsanity.org and type in Michael Moore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArmchairRedskin Posted June 17, 2004 Share Posted June 17, 2004 Originally posted by troyster It wasn't that you couldn't get a gun in a bank. Moore tried to make it look like you could go into the bank, open an account, walk out with a gun. Which is untrue. Customers still had to go thru the same background check and waiting period as if they had gone to a store and bought the gun. Moore wanted it to look like it was ridiculously easy to get a gun when it really wasn't too different from going to the store and getting one. I think you're missing the point. The point is, instead of opening a bank account and getting a new toaster, in this particular bank, you open an account and walk out with a shotgun. In the movie, if I recall correctly, they even discussed the fact that there would be a backround check. There wasn't anything misleading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Sick Posted June 17, 2004 Share Posted June 17, 2004 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Sick Posted June 17, 2004 Share Posted June 17, 2004 Originally posted by ArmchairRedskin I think you're missing the point. The point is, instead of opening a bank account and getting a new toaster, in this particular bank, you open an account and walk out with a shotgun. In the movie, if I recall correctly, they even discussed the fact that there would be a backround check. There wasn't anything misleading. Isn't it common knowledge that we have a federal law requiring a 5 day waiting period before gun purchases? Did Moore ever claim he didn't have to undergo a background check or wait 5 days? Wasn't he wearing different clothes when he walked out of the bank holding his new rifle in the air? Didn't the movie state that the bank was a licensed gun dealer? Doesn't that strike people as odd? I guess it's easier to knitpick on cinematic license taken than to have an informed debate on the merits of gun control and the gun culture in the US. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beaudry Posted June 17, 2004 Share Posted June 17, 2004 This isn't nitpicking, it's pointing out how Moore intentionally deceived people in "Bowling". He didn't get the gun from the bank. He asked the lady at the bank to hand him the gun, in a way to make the audience believe that the bank handed him the guy. My company recently put together a sporting clay shoot. The grand prize winner received a shotgun. I have a picture of the sponsor handing the winner the shotgun. Then we take the shotgun back, return it to the store, and tell the winner had can pick it up from said store.... after a background check, of course! I am not a republican. I am not a Bush supporter. That being said, only a complete moron cannot see how the information above was misleading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
troyster Posted June 17, 2004 Share Posted June 17, 2004 Jackson. Documentaries aren't supposed to be full of "cinematic license." Also, this thread isn't titled "the merits of gun control and the gun culture in the US." Its a topic about a movie that hasn't come out yet, so I can't comment on that one. If I want to talk about how I don't think Moore is credible from things I've seen in other movies he's done, its on topic. I don't find his documentaries to be credible because he is obviously biased with a clear agenda. Watch "The Fog of War" for an example of a real documentary. Nice little shot at me at the end of your post calling me a nitpicker. You post 20 times (I'm using Moore's 'license' there to make my point, so its OK) on each political thread that comes though, but if someone disagrees with you, they're the one nitpicking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkey66 Posted June 17, 2004 Share Posted June 17, 2004 Originally posted by troyster Jackson. Documentaries aren't supposed to be full of "cinematic license." ... Watch "The Fog of War" for an example of a real documentary. Quoted for truth. Best post in the whole damn thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hooper Posted June 17, 2004 Share Posted June 17, 2004 "The Fog of War" was fantastic. If only Bush and Cheny had watched it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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