bulldog Posted January 3, 2002 Share Posted January 3, 2002 anyone who thinks having Banks return for another season is a good idea must have been watching films of the winged-T in their youth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted January 3, 2002 Share Posted January 3, 2002 Rob Johnson is an interesting guy. He's pretty accurate with the ball. He's got great speed and mobility for a QB. He can make the throws and does a very fine job of avoiding the huge mistake. He's only thrown 20 interceptions in 698 career passes. He has great tools. He probably doesn't have quite the raw arm strength that Banks has, but, he's got a better arm overall in that he can throw balls with accuracy Banks can't throw with accuracy. It's those injuries that scare you about that guy. But, I'd be THRILLED to bring him in over a guy like Banks or Miller or Frerotte or Lucas or, dare I say, Dilfer. There's some crazy love affair with Trent that is wonderful now. It's new and special. But, trust me on this guys, pretty soon, that love will become hate and I don't want to be the guy who has that happen to him on his team . He's as he'll always be, Trent Dilfer. I'd prefer a guy like Johnson because he IS a guy that can lead, and face adversity with a pretty solid leadership. He was just never right for Buffalo. And his career is not unlike our brittle Brad. I think if you get him in a situation that is good for him and the fans rally behind him, he can be a very nice player. I'd prefer Brunell, or even Blake probably, given the experience and better injury history, but, Johnson could be a sweet find if the stars were to align just right. And, hell, if it doesn't think of it on the bright side. He'd be a guy who'd miss enough time with injury that your young QB of the future would have to see playing time . ------------------ Doom is in the box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Die Hard Posted January 3, 2002 Share Posted January 3, 2002 At this point... I'd rather have Ryan Leaf than Tony Banks or Rob Johnson. I know what Banks and Johnson are capable of. Leaf is a QB whose learning curve is a bit longer... but I think he could be a competent starting QB in the mold of Fiedler in Miami. Nothing spectacular but capable. Some QBs take longer than others; both in maturity and understanding of the game. Once Leaf settles down with a team and gets into a system longer than 2 full years... I think he'll be OK. Bulldog - Hey, if I had absolutely no other choices other than keeping Tony Banks or signing Rob Johnson... I'm keeping Tony Banks for one more season and hoping the QB crop of 2002 is a little more bountiful. ------------------ Accept that some days you're the pigeon and some days the statue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickalino Posted January 3, 2002 Author Share Posted January 3, 2002 Here's how I see it... Rob Johnson beat out Doug Flutie for HIS job.... Meanwhile, Tony Banks GOT BEAT out by Anthony Wright, Quincy Carter, and Clint Stoerner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Die Hard Posted January 3, 2002 Share Posted January 3, 2002 Art - There's a reason why Mike Holmgren is starting Trent Dilfer in the last game of the season in a must-win situation with the playoffs are on the line. Rob Johnson having faced adversity? Baloney. He was GIVEN the startering job in Buffalo. It was Johnson's phat contract and Flutie's age which allowed Rob Johnson to remain. No other reason. Flutie was the QB who won in Buffalo. Flutie was the QB who turned Eric Moulds and Jay Riemersma into a Pro Bowl calibre players. It was Wade Phillips stubbornness to recognize this that ultimately cost him his job in Buffalo. Donahoe and Williams made the same mistake. Here we are only 1 year later and the Bills have 3 wins. Now the Bills are prepared to part ways with Johnson and go with Alex Van Pelt - a player who has been with the Bills for ages and fills in only under emergency situations. Rob Johnson will be a backup in this league from this day forward. ------------------ Accept that some days you're the pigeon and some days the statue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Die Hard Posted January 3, 2002 Share Posted January 3, 2002 Mick - Tony Banks did NOT get beat out by the play of Wright, Carter or Stoner and you know it. I would expect a little more from you ------------------ Accept that some days you're the pigeon and some days the statue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bulldog Posted January 3, 2002 Share Posted January 3, 2002 Mick, if you think Johnson beat out Flutie based on performance and not contract dollars you need to go back and read some of the Buffalo papers. That $25 million contract is all that tied Johnson to the Bills the past two years. Things started to go south for Buffalo when they told Flutie that going 11-5 wasn't good enough to remain the starter and they were going to replace him for the playoff game against Tennessee. You don't do that in the NFL. You don't take a guy that is productive and has been leading your team to a playoff berth and then sit him down in the 'reward' game at the end of the season because Rob Johnson throws a nice spiral in practice. Practice ain't the real thing. Something that Jeff George has showed us over and over again during his career, eh? There is more than to playing quarterback in the NFL than measurables as Jeff Garcia has shown. Art is right that Brunell is a much better option than Dilfer. But I don't think Marty will consider a playmaker for the qb position. That is not his style. If he has to go with a more traditional pocket quarterback I would rather have it be a guy like Dilfer who has shown he can win games over a guy like Banks that with the same team as Dilfer last year couldn't do a damn thing [ by bulldog on January 03, 2002.] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickalino Posted January 3, 2002 Author Share Posted January 3, 2002 Die Hard, I didn't mean that in a literal sense, of course. Just pointing out that the others were selected OVER him, and he wasn't even welcome as a 3rd stringer on a team void of QB talent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Die Hard Posted January 3, 2002 Share Posted January 3, 2002 Art - The players and fans in Buffalo wanted Flutie. They knew he gave them the best chance at winning. It was the coaching staff and management who made the final call for the various reasons stated. Flutie sulked and went public for good reason. Rob Johnson is 5-15 in the games he started for Buffalo over the past 2 seasons. That's the kind of leader he is. ------------------ Accept that some days you're the pigeon and some days the statue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted January 3, 2002 Share Posted January 3, 2002 The biggest negative I see in Johnson is that he holds onto the ball too long and seems to have some difficulty going through his progressions. This is hardly a endearing trait. But at his age and potential, I'd prefer him over Dilfer. Die Hard, if you don't think Johnson faced adversity in Buffalo where he was never liked by the fans and was never wanted by many of his teammates who were Flutie guys, you simply need to stick to hockey where we agree that Gretzky is the greatest of all time. Johnson is NOT a good fit for Buffalo. If I were in Buffalo I'd probably be saying to get rid of Johnson and let's go with Van Pelt. But, if I were in Washington with Van Pelt, and Johnson were available, you can bet I'd be asking for Johnson. Johnson may not be a good fit here either. Miller, or Dilfer, or even Banks could be better fits here given what Marty wants to do at that position. But, Johnson could have a great upside than all of them. Perhaps not, but, I wouldn't discount it yet at least. You may have to come around on him. Remember, Pendry is here, and he might have a little love for the guy. But, yes, I know we said the same about Flutie. ------------------ Doom is in the box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Die Hard Posted January 3, 2002 Share Posted January 3, 2002 Art - I live about a 1-hour drive from Ralph Wilson stadium and I'm all too familiar with the Buffalo Bills Having a coaching staff that believes in your abilities... regardless of how many times you've faltered and cost the teams games... and guaranteeing your job regardless - even after injuries where substitutes have played better - is ultimately the most favorable condition any quarterback can ask for. As a quarterback, you'd also like to be surrounded with capable players. And I think the Bills have had enough for Johnson to succeed. Ultimately, WINNING guarantees you'll win over your teammates and fans. Winning has been Johnson's greatest adversity. You are much too enamored with measurables my friend. You were saying the same thing about George as you did with Banks and are now saying about Johnson. It's been a friggin carousel of retreads. I'd figure you would've learned by now. ------------------ Accept that some days you're the pigeon and some days the statue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted January 3, 2002 Share Posted January 3, 2002 Die Hard, the Bills do not have nearly enough to succeed, for Johnson or any QB right now. I do appreciate a good measurable, there is no question. But, I never said anything about Banks other than given his age and his measurables, as Redskin fans, we better hope he's a better QB for us than he's ever been because he is the best known option in free agency at the time. I believe George could succeed here. I know he didn't, but that doesn't change the belief and past performance under similar offensive schemes that suggested he could. Ultimately, though, my friend, you need to understand that in order for any QB to succeed, he has to be able to throw the ball. His measurables are that which he's measured by. Some have special qualities beyond that. Some don't. Some take to it. Some bloom late in the other areas. Others become Trent Dilfer, who's the same guy, only with those intangibles that make him lovable. Flutie had that same thing. He was loved. How is he doing today? ------------------ Doom is in the box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Die Hard Posted January 3, 2002 Share Posted January 3, 2002 Flutie's had a bit of a down year no doubt. But to put all the blame on him wouldn't be fair either. Seau and the defense hasn't been up to par either. Freddie Jones was slow out of the gate due to injury. Conway and Graham are 'decent' receivers but neither will be mistaken for game breakers. Johnson does have Ray Reimersma and Eric Moulds at his disposal. Peerless Price is a legitimate #2 receiver. Larry Centers is a nice outlet as well. The Chargers may also have a slight edge in the 0-line. And Thomlinson is more of a threat than Travis Henry and Shawn Bryson. All in all... I think Johnson had more weapons at his disposal than Flutie. And Flutie had to start completely over with a new team/teammates and offensive system. Edge: Doug Flutie again. ------------------ Accept that some days you're the pigeon and some days the statue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted January 3, 2002 Share Posted January 3, 2002 Die Hard, all that last post proves is that you'll make apologies for players you like saying he's not fully to blame and there are other factors, but, for players you don't like, it IS all their fault. You wrote. "Flutie's had a bit of a down year no doubt. But to put all the blame on him wouldn't be fair either. Seau and the defense hasn't been up to par either." To reinforce the point above, it IS ok to put the blame on Johnson though in Buffalo, where that team purged the roster of very solid talent before the season. For the record, the Chargers on defense have given up about 20 points a game, have surrendered under 100 yards a game rushing and 306 total. The defense hasn't been a huge problem out there. "Freddie Jones was slow out of the gate due to injury. Conway and Graham are 'decent' receivers but neither will be mistaken for game breakers." So what? Jones wasn't available early because of injury and this mitigates an 0-11 finish (or whatever) . Moulds is a fine receiver and Price is pretty good, but would you rather have Tomlinson or Henry? And Conway is a pretty good receiver. I don't know a lot of guys who've had three 1,000 yard seasons receiving who are 'decent'. He's a pretty good player when he's healthy. Moulds is a pretty good receiver, but, in all, I'd take the San Diego offense over the Buffalo offense, because San Diego has a legit back. "Johnson does have Ray Reimersma and Eric Moulds at his disposal. Peerless Price is a legitimate #2 receiver. Larry Centers is a nice outlet as well." Yes. And Flutie has a top runner and a defense ranked 10 spots higher than the Bills. Don't cry for me Douglas Flutie. "The Chargers may also have a slight edge in the 0-line. And Thomlinson is more of a threat than Travis Henry and Shawn Bryson." Ok. "All in all... I think Johnson had more weapons at his disposal than Flutie. And Flutie had to start completely over with a new team/teammates and offensive system." All in all, to me, includes the defense of a football team. And, Johnson had to do some changing with a new coaching staff as well, though, not new players. Of course, we know Flutie didn't take long to adjust as his better games were early in the year before teams adjusted to Norv and the Chargers. Even so, Flutie had the magic and the love. It's a love affair gone wrong right now. This is Dilfer where ever he plays soon and starts again on a regular basis. "Edge: Doug Flutie again." I know. Because, he's still got Flutie magic to you . ------------------ Doom is in the box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonnyJ Posted January 3, 2002 Share Posted January 3, 2002 I'm not positive about this, but I thought one of the strikes against Flutie in Buffalo was that the players hated him and preferred Johnson. I'd be leery of the guy just because of his injury history. His aren't the weird injuries that B Johnson used to get, but injuries due to the pounding that an NFL QB takes. But any unfavorable comparison to Banks is ludicrous. I'd take R Johnson over Banks any day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry Posted January 3, 2002 Share Posted January 3, 2002 Man I love this thread. We need to find ways to hit a nerve with Art and Die Hard more often. Hey guys, who's the greatest hockey player ever? For the record, I'm not a big Rob Johnson fan. My vote would be no thank you. Don't bring him here. ------------------ "Men, there's nothing to get excited about. The situation is normal; we are surrounded." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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