Is Our DL Really that Bad?

[StevieInferior]

The Biggest fear most of us have is our defense and most specifically our DL. After giving it some thought are we really in that bad of a condition?

Our DL as it stands is built to stop the run. Griffin and Noble are hard nosed run stuffers but not known about their pass rushing abilities. Same with Wynn. I thinkif you put our DL with our current LB corp, we will be fine against the run.

This brings us to the pass rush. I believe Upshaw is a player to watch. he was a solid (not spectacular) pass rusher prior to his injury. This year he gets his position back and has had a full year to recover from knee surgery. We all saw what Lavar can do as a downed lineman. Now imagine what he will do now that he believes in the role. From all accounts, Washington is more than capable to rush as well. Whichever, LB rushes, we can rest assure that Pierce will spell them nicely in the LB role. last year Sunny said he is the best coverage and most disciplned LB on the team. As for DT, Haley returns to what he was brought in for, pass rush on third down. Wynn provideds speed moving inside as well.

We won't be a dominant DL, but I think we will be far from the swiss cheese many believe.

[NavyDave]

If the D line is completely healthy it is a run stuffing line with a decent pass rush from Upshaw

In obvious pass situations you can see Lavar and or Washington going after the QB heck even in a 5-2-4 formation

[Old Glory]

Let me see....we allowed Troy Hambrick to run for 189 yards on us.

We allowed Travis Henry to run for 160 yards on us with a broken foot!!

Yes our D-line is that bad. Pass rush wise, we were aguably the worse in the league and the idea that we are going to get a pass rush from our LB"S is....well, let's put it this way: What SB winning teams have you seen that the pass rush comes basically from the LB's?? Exactly.

[NavyDave]

Not the same D lineand better defensive philosophy.

You wont see a defensive player make a solid play then is substituted the following down all d@mn game long.

[fwo40]

Originally posted by Old Glory

Let me see....we allowed Troy Hambrick to run for 189 yards on us.

We allowed Travis Henry to run for 160 yards on us with a broken foot!!

Yes our D-line is that bad. Pass rush wise, we were aguably the worse in the league and the idea that we are going to get a pass rush from our LB"S is....well, let's put it this way: What SB winning teams have you seen that the pass rush comes basically from the LB's?? Exactly.

"we allowed"...seems like past tense, when now we are somewhere slightly different. We have better personel up front than we had last year. Grant it, they are not pro-bowlers...but there is a small upgrade going on. And, we have much better coaching...much better.

Personel upgrade. Coaching upgrade. The DL will be better. We won't have the best in the league, but I think fearing that we will have the worst is a bit too pesimistic.

[NavyDave]

They are going to be solid but they wont be on par with the Panthers front 4

[The X-Factor]

Originally posted by NavyDave

They are going to be solid but they wont be on par with the Panthers front 4

How can you even start to compare our line with the Panthers line? There is a world of difference between the two groups. If we were anywhere close to that group, our defense would be one of best units in the league.

As long as they don't make any mental mistakes and do what they are supposed to do on the field, then they should be adequate enough. I feel as though we will give up a lot of yards on the ground, but with the new additions at LB, the pass rusher should improved slightly.

[NavyDave]

The comparison is that our D line should be solid but it ISNT on par with the Panthers front 4.

Step back from the Forest to look at the TREES.

[Pocono]

Well actually......yes it is that bad.

When did Griffin become a "hard-nosed run stuffer?" I mean within the division we all watched him play often and seriously did anyone ever think of him as anything but that guy playing between Hammer and Strahan? Did any of you Skin fans spend an uneasy night before a Skins Giants game wondering how the hell are we going to control Griffen? Playing between those two do you think he's ever been double-teamed? What I wonder about is how he could only get one sack playing next to Strahan. You'd figure QB's would trip over his prone body more than that trying to escape old gap-tooth. This guy did nothing before you made him a rich man so what can you expect from him now that he doesn't have the expectation of a future big payday to motivate him?

[Destino]

Our line will be better because of coaching. Talent is a little better but you never really know what will happen when the new coaches plan around these guys. They may have a amazing year that surprises everyone, or they may become the teams major weakness.

We will know later this year.

[Old Glory]

Originally posted by fwo40

"we allowed"...seems like past tense, when now we are somewhere slightly different. We have better personel up front than we had last year. Grant it, they are not pro-bowlers...but there is a small upgrade going on. And, we have much better coaching...much better.

Personel upgrade. Coaching upgrade. The DL will be better. We won't have the best in the league, but I think fearing that we will have the worst is a bit too pesimistic.

What upgrade?? Phillip Daniels has been getting worse and worse the last 2 years. Griffin is good but that's all.

So..one player upgrade (Griffin) and you think we are going to be better? You have to stop dreaming. We have the worse D-line in the NFC. And just because Williams is coaching isn't going to make a guy who has sucked basically his whole career (Daniels, Noble & Wynn) play better all because they have an indian on the side of their heads. I'm the redskins biggest fan but I don't jock my team blindly.

Noble, Daniels,Wynn are not very good and I don't think there is anything Williams can do to make them play any different then the way they've played the last 3 years. :rolleyes:

[GURU]

Noble, Daniels,Wynn are not very good

That's an extremely debatable statement. Most evaluations that I've seen and most of my personal observations lead me to conclude that those three players are all solid, legitmate, NFL starters.

Phillip Daniels has been getting worse and worse the last 2 years.

Well, the Bears have been getting worse and worse that past two years. Phillips is not a player who can carry a team. He is a player who can be a positive contributer surrounded by the right players and in the right scheme. Daniels was more effective when the Bears had Rosevelt Colvin, who moved from linebacker to end on passing downs and Daniels moved to DT. He's in that kind of situation again. I don't think there's really any justification for saying he is a bad player. There's really no evidence to make a case for that, either. I've heard legit NFL people say he's a good player but not an elite pass rusher. And I've even heard him called average. But other than a few whiners on message boards, I've never heard Daniels called a bad player.

And the same goes for Noble and Wynn. Noble was an anchor on some pretty decent Cowboys' defenses. He is widely and rightly recognized as an overachiever. But that's worlds away from being a "bad" player.

And Wynn is widely seen as a good player who just doesn't give you much in the pass rush. Again, that may make him a limited player, not a bad one.

As for Griffin, he is a player who looked like he had the potential to be a very good DT, but his play has kind of plateaued. But that coincides with the departure of John Fox as the Giants defensive coordinator. Fox knew how to take adavantage of his athletic ability. Since then, he has been asked to be more of a conventional DT, and he has garnered a lot more attention with the decline of the talent around him. He's not a one-man wrecking crew, but he can be an outstanding player if used correctly.

This is not a line lacking in talent. There are several good athletes on it. It is a line lacking a star player that makes oppents alter their game plan. Does that mean this team can't contend? Well, I think that's debatable.

I don't think there is anything Williams can do to make them play any different then the way they've played the last 3 years.

Well, see the Griffin comments. If you don't think coaching can make a difference, well, I just don't know what to say in the face of such blindness.

[boozeman3]

Yes.

It is.

[fwo40]

Originally posted by Old Glory

What upgrade?? Phillip Daniels has been getting worse and worse the last 2 years. Griffin is good but that's all.

So..one player upgrade (Griffin) and you think we are going to be better? You have to stop dreaming. We have the worse D-line in the NFC. And just because Williams is coaching isn't going to make a guy who has sucked basically his whole career (Daniels, Noble & Wynn) play better all because they have an indian on the side of their heads. I'm the redskins biggest fan but I don't jock my team blindly.

Noble, Daniels,Wynn are not very good and I don't think there is anything Williams can do to make them play any different then the way they've played the last 3 years. :rolleyes:

Please don't accuse me of "jocking" anything. Apart from it beign insulting...I'm also not really sure what it means :laugh:

Guru actually adressed several of the points I was going to make in rebuttal. Thank you Guru.

But I'd like to add that part of my orginal post including the statement that I did not think we had a DL made of pro bowl players....only that we had made adjustments and we did improve slightly our personel. Did it go far enough for my liking and the rest of the Redskin community? Nope. Are we a DL to be feared? Nope. But we really are better. Honest Injuin....

Also, schemes make up a bigger role for DL than most people think. Williams will do things on defense that, even if the play of the individual line member doesn't improve, will make our entire 11 man unit play better. And thus, our weakness at DL will be lessened.

It's no good to be overly homerish...and I guess "jocking"...being ultrally optimistic because I like my team...but I don't believe for a second I was or am doing that.

Neither is it good to be overly pessimistic b/c your favorite team didn't make the moves you wanted to see them make. Course I don't know you well enough to know that that's the reason behind your comments...I'm just throwing that out there for everyone's consumption.

[rfdc]

I have little to go on in terms of how the new 3 DL that will make the team, will do. I find it intriguing, but am not as confident than I'd like to be, that a wide body is still needed. I think the DLine currently fits a main need for Williams, but his style of rotation, I will have to see. Using Arrington, is still not a "complete" comfort to me, but makes the defense respectable.

You will only get glimpses of it, in preseason. You will see pretty vanilla stuff. I won't give away the secret sauce that helps create a certain element, but coaches should know what it does.

I think that November and December will show how much our defense can handle. Those are the stretch drive months. One may not panick in November, but if you lose your focus, then December is just playing for stats and contracts.

Gibbs and Williams know that part too well.

[DCMONEY]

Originally posted by Pocono

Well actually......yes it is that bad.

When did Griffin become a "hard-nosed run stuffer?" I mean within the division we all watched him play often and seriously did anyone ever think of him as anything but that guy playing between Hammer and Strahan? Did any of you Skin fans spend an uneasy night before a Skins Giants game wondering how the hell are we going to control Griffen? Playing between those two do you think he's ever been double-teamed? What I wonder about is how he could only get one sack playing next to Strahan. You'd figure QB's would trip over his prone body more than that trying to escape old gap-tooth. This guy did nothing before you made him a rich man so what can you expect from him now that he doesn't have the expectation of a future big payday to motivate him?

Man you are hitting tha nail right on the head. It seems the Skins sometimes sign a player for big money and expect him to be something that he never was for his previous team. The only player we've ever signed and he went on to perform at a pro bowl level multiple yrs, even though he wasn't for his previous team was Ken Harvey. But I agree with you on your reply.

[Oldskool]

My assumption is that we wont have enough talent on the D line yet again to make Williams’ scheme work correctly.

However im crossing my fingers and hope that the prevailing wisdom that Williams knows more about football than you or I holds true and that he can make the D line look like pro bowlers.

We really wont know till the season starts.

[newsbroker]

Originally posted by StevieInferior

The Biggest fear most of us have is our defense and most specifically our DL.

That's partly because all other areas look pretty okay. The problem I have with the defensive line is I fear it can and will be run on. And when that happens, everything else opens up. Passes way down field and more.

So while others have discussed pass rush, I am concerned with only 1 thing in regards to the line: stopping the run. If you can do that and get a team to be more or less 1 dimensional, then you're in good shape defensively.

It's all about stopping the run. That's why I suggest you all to pay close attention in preseason when the 1st unit is out there against a 1st unit offense and watch the defense against the run. Tell tale signs for the season can be shown.

I've got my concerns because Cornelius Griffin is overrated and got blown off the ball all year last year (and wasn't much better the year before). He needs to play like he did as a rookie otherwise they wont get any more from him than they got from their DT's a year ago.

In terms of rushing the passer, if you put a Regan Upshaw at RE, his history suggests he can average somewhere between 5-8 sacks. Not bad. Not great. But definately not bad. Slide Daniels inside (passing downs). His history suggests he can get to the QB 4-7 times (though from the inside I don't know) and if you were to put Marcus Washington at LE, his history suggests he can get you another 6 sacks there. Plus whatever Griffin can provide. All of a sudden that defensive line is getting some pressure. Not a great amount, mind you. They wont be the 'sack exchange'. But not horrible either. Plus Arrington on blitzes being the best rusher they got. All of a sudden there's some pressure there.

I'm not really for moving more than 1 LB into a DE position and I'd rather that LB be Washington because you sacrifice too much in pass coverage that way.

My long winded point is I think it all comes down to the ability to stop the run 1st. That's what the season will hinge on. I do have my doubts. August will perhaps show a glimpse one way or the other. I aint concerned about the pass rush as I am the run defense. It all starts and ends there.

[Renegade7]

Originally posted by NavyDave

The comparison is that our D line should be solid but it ISNT on par with the Panthers front 4.

Step back from the Forest to look at the TREES.

Ah man! Woody's here! :laugh: I agree with you that our d-line won't be bad, but we go out and say we can compare them to the that of the Panthers. This topic is about as old as dirt, so I'll just let ya'll continue on without me.

Poof, and I'm gone...

[Brother Redskin]

sure you can compare them to the greatest d-fense ever if you are saying our line is not as good. people seem to be misreading this statement still. he said we are not as good as the panthers d-line.

[GURU]

I've got my concerns because Cornelius Griffin is overrated and got blown off the ball all year last year (and wasn't much better the year before).

Can you say that definitively? From personal observation, I didn't really see that last season. And I do listen to and read everything I can about real football people's opinions about reputations. And everything leads me to believe that Griffin has been very solid against the run. He has been disappointing in the pass rush after showing promise as a rookie. Just because a defense, as a whole, doesn't play the run very well doesn't mean that certain individual players aren't getting the job done.

The run is the area, based on players reputations and past production, where this defense has improved. Holdover Renaldo Wynn almost universally has a reputation as a tough run defender. Brandon Noble brings the same repuation. Even Jermaine Haley came from Miami with a rep as a run plugger and showed up pretty well before he got hurt. Add in Griffin, who is a DT who can play the run up and down the line-of-scrimmage. And Phillip Daniels, who is still one of the better DEs in the league against the run. Even Regan Upshaw is known to give good effort against the run and plays it pretty well. And the addition of Michael Barrow at MLB is significant, as well. He is still among the quickest in the league to fill the hole, even at his age.

This defense, by reputation alone, should be much, much better at stopping the run. I haven't even mentioned that Sean Taylor's range at FS should allow Williams to add that 8th man in the box on a consistant basis, which should make the run defense even tougher. They just have to learn to play together in Williams' scheme.

Old Skool, I guess I don't understand why you would ASSUME we don't have enough talent to get the job done. I think your evaluations are a little off, but I'm glad you've got your fingers crossed, at least. And you're right. We really won't know much until the season starts. And even then, it could take some time for the players to become completely comfortable in yet another new defensive scheme.

[Old Glory]

Joe Gibbs is the greatest modern day football coach in the NFL in my opinion. I may be bias but looking at his works, it's hard to argue with.

With that said, he will in time get the right D-line players for us to excel.

But I don't see any proof that we have those players now. Wynn is done and just because Gibbs is back isn't going to bring this guys youth or stamina back. To think that is only to fool yourself.

Noble was a cornball signing and was the linch pin part of the 2001 Dallas defensive line that was the worse in football and Noble was horrible, awful and that was when he was in his hayday. Now he's trying to recover from a major,major knee injury and he won't be better then the player he was before he got hurt and the player he was.

Griffin is a good player and he will help.

Daniels is another cornball and he has been on the decline the last two years.

Basically...I'm saying you have no factual evidence to support your feeling so optimistic about our D-line. Your argement is, " Gibbs & Williams will make them better" and for that to happen, they would have to have some talent and for the most part these guys are done. Especially Wynn & Noble.

Just because Gibbs is back doesn't mean that guys are going to find a fountain of youth and play the way they've never played before. Sorry but I'm not buying that.

Next year, I'm sure we will revamp the D-line and add some much needed talent and youth and then we will be a major contender.

If you want a prevue of the skins this coming season, look at the Chiefs of two years ago that finished 8-8. Alot of offense, bad defense. We will be something like that this season.

[Jay Master Jay]

I will take the wait and see attitude about our DL. We had bad coaching and no running game. With a running game the defense gets to rest and not be on the field as much. With a better coaching staff we can put more pressure on the other team. We have signed a few D linemen and we dont know how Gregg Williams will use them so only time will tell how good or bad the D line will be. We dont have big names but we have had them before (ie Stubblefield, Wilkinson, Coleman, and Smith) and the line still sucked. Lets be patient and let our coaches earn their checks as Gibbs said if were sorry this year it will be the players and coaches fault.

[GURU]

Basically...I'm saying you have no factual evidence to support your feeling so optimistic about our D-line.

Of course, that statement is based on accepting your evaluations of those players. You are way off, in my opinion, and you are being unneccessarily pessimistic.

Wynn will be 30 this year. I think saying he is done is off target. Despite your rantings, Old Glory, he is generally thought to be a decent player who just isn't much of a factor in the pass rush.

Noble is what he is. That's an overacheiver who can help clog the middle. He ain't great. But he reminds me a lot of Eric Williams, who was a starter on the Skins '91 Super Bowl team. He is not a terrible player, no matter how loudly someone says it.

Daniels is getting older and is a player in decline. But he is still one of the better defensive ends in the league against the run. At this point in his career, he still offers more positives than negatives, and he is consistant and can be relied on.

Basically, you have no FACTUAL evidence to support your pessimism. You have your oppinion. Do you think your cynicism makes you smarter?

[helluvaskinsfan]

let's put it this way. i'm not real excited about the d-line.but we have good coaches now , who might suprise me with what they can do with thesew players