Is Our DL Really that Bad?

[Old Glory]

Originally posted by GURU

Of course, that statement is based on accepting your evaluations of those players. You are way off, in my opinion, and you are being unneccessarily pessimistic.

Wynn will be 30 this year. I think saying he is done is off target. Despite your rantings, Old Glory, he is generally thought to be a decent player who just isn't much of a factor in the pass rush.

Noble is what he is. That's an overacheiver who can help clog the middle. He ain't great. But he reminds me a lot of Eric Williams, who was a starter on the Skins '91 Super Bowl team. He is not a terrible player, no matter how loudly someone says it.

Daniels is getting older and is a player in decline. But he is still one of the better defensive ends in the league against the run. At this point in his career, he still offers more positives than negatives, and he is consistant and can be relied on.

Basically, you have no FACTUAL evidence to support your pessimism. You have your oppinion. Do you think your cynicism makes you smarter?

My facts have been stated. Wynn has been done and no one can dispute that. Noble has never shown anyone (including Dallas) that he isn't really anything other then just "a guy". Those are undisputable facts.

And their not opinions. Your "feeling" that Williams can make them something that they've never been is "an opinion".

[The Rook]

Originally posted by Old Glory

We have the worse D-line in the NFC.

Now that's one heck of a statement. Would have liked to have seen THAT on the betting board when I was in Vegas.:mmm:

[newsbroker]

Originally posted by GURU

Can you say that definitively?

Yes. Unfortunately (or fortunately), I see a lot of Giants/Jets/Eagles games living in the market that plays all those teams games. I tape games. A hobby of mine, I guess. Got a whole bunch of games on tape. (by the way, any one interested in nfl games of the last 5 years, contact me).

When the Redskins signed Cornelius Griffin, I pulled out what I had on the Giants in 2004 and kinda studied him, if you will. One thing to note first off, is whenever Keith Hamilton was on the field (02, 03, 04) he got the double teams inside and Griffin worked exclusively with one on ones. (something he wont get this year). And he didnt do anything with his one on one matchups. It was definately a source of frustration from the Giants coaching staff the last couple of years because I heard Fassell talk about it on his weekly shows on WFAN.

But beyond that, I was watching Griffin last year in games, just getting moved off the ball in the running game. Just look at the 2 Redskin games, if you have them on tape. Here's a team that wasn't even that prolific at running the ball and they were constantly blowing Griffin well out of running plays.

I'll say it like this: I'm down on him and where his career went since his rookie season and if you were to base these players strictly off of last season, if you didn't have a name on the back of the jersey to identify them, I will GUARANTEE you you wouldnt be able to tell me the difference between him and any DT the Redskins employed last year.

Simply put, if he is to make a difference this year for the Redskins, he's going to have to play a totally different level next year than he did last year.

The run is the area, based on players reputations and past production, where this defense has improved. Holdover Renaldo Wynn almost universally has a reputation as a tough run defender. [.quote]

No he doesn't. First of all, that's a contradiction in terms. "Almost universally"? I don't know the 98%-100% of sources you have that have given him this reputation but it doesnt show up on the ton of tapes I have on him. I'd say he's pretty good. Decent against the run. Okay. "tough run defender", though? No. I've got too many examples of him losing his contain and cutting inside on plays. When he keeps his pads outside of the tackle, the team seems to do better on the run, but I see him getting caught inside or simply getting blocked inside to make me know better to calling him a "tough run defender". He's okay at it. And as a pass rusher, by the way, he's one of the least effective defensive ends in the sport.

Brandon Noble brings the same repuation. Even Jermaine Haley came from Miami with a rep as a run plugger and showed up pretty well before he got hurt.

Again, you're giving too much credit to these journeymen players. These guys are okay players. Marginal. Guys, who by the way, barely have gotten into the NFL (one was in the CFL, the other was undrafted). Brandon Noble *was* a marginal player at DT, did a decent job I guess. A Cowboy fan-friend of mine, kinda liked him I recall but said it was certainly no big deal losing him (and their defense showed it, too, in 2003) and this was all BEFORE his extremely serious injury that plenty of people have speculated will cause him to not be at full 100% any time soon. Haley is depth. That's it. Like any other name on any other team in the 2nd string of a defensive line.

And Phillip Daniels, who is still one of the better DEs in the league against the run.

This is the only guy I won't comment much on because I simply don't have much tape on him. Hopefully he is what you say he is, and he certainly has the nice for that but since you've written too glowing reports of the other marginal linemen, I have my doubts about the credibility here.

Even Regan Upshaw is known to give good effort against the run and plays it pretty well.

He was dumped from Tampa Bay because of his INABILITY to play the run. He hasnt even seen the field much since 2002, I can't give you this.

Now, I'm not saying they won't stop the run. But I think #1 it will be the most pressing issue on the team this season, more so than generating a pass rush. it starts with run defense. I will say I have my concerns because they have marginal talents up front. I say they should look into signing Chester McGlockton, a huge body that could help out a great deal.

[DCMONEY]

Originally posted by Jay Master Jay

I will take the wait and see attitude about our DL. We had bad coaching and no running game. With a running game the defense gets to rest and not be on the field as much. With a better coaching staff we can put more pressure on the other team. We have signed a few D linemen and we dont know how Gregg Williams will use them so only time will tell how good or bad the D line will be. We dont have big names but we have had them before (ie Stubblefield, Wilkinson, Coleman, and Smith) and the line still sucked. Lets be patient and let our coaches earn their checks as Gibbs said if were sorry this year it will be the players and coaches fault.

For what its worth that D-Line was better than what we have now and last year. And they shoulda been based on what they were paid. But they weren't great either. Marco was a very good run defending end to me though. I always judge NFL players based off their pay because the generally don't come out of high school like these other sports needing time to develop. Your play grade has to equal your pay grade to me. No amount of coaching can make a whole unit be overall good. If were covering up fro 1 player, maybe a scheme could cover that up, but a whole entire line? No way. Can't be done. Upshaw,Wynn, Daniels, Haley,Giffin & Noble = a D to me. People on here keep mentioning Brandon Noble. Man he was very average before he got hurt. Stopping the run is the main priority I agree. But we don't have Pat Williams and Sam Adams like Buffaloe last yr.

[GURU]

newsbroker, glad you watch tape. I think one thing that your not considering about Griffin is that he may have been used improperly. He is a very good athlete for a DT, and John Fox put him in positions to use that ability during his rookie season. But when Fox left, the coaches used him as a more conventional DT who's main job is to tie up blockers. When he was in those matchups with one blocker, he was being asked to control the gap, not attack. Griffin would be much more effective in an aggressive scheme, like Tony Dungy's Cover Two (conservative coverage, but attacking line play), Jim Johnson's jailbreak blitzing scheme, or, well, Gregg Williams aggressive 46-derived scheme. The coaching staff must have looked at several DT free agents, and believed Griffin's talents were a better fit than some of the jumbo-sized DTs who are favored by most gap-control defenses these days.

As for Noble, here's what an ESPN article said about him when he was signed by the Skins:

Noble, 28, started all 16 games each of the last two seasons. While he is not a dominating player, he is a tough, blue-collar defender and he will replace Daryl Gardener in the lineup. Gardener is an unrestricted free agent, turned down an offer from Washington, and will sign elsewhere.

In 64 games, including 41 starts, Noble has 105 tackles, 7½ sacks and five pass deflections. He is not a player who hits the crease and gets into the opposition backfield, but is a superb anchor against the run.

Now, I know this is just one source. But this is pretty similar to pretty much every evaluation I've seen or heard about the guy, save for opinions on message boards. I appreciate the "film" work done by you, newsbroker, but sorry if I don't take your evaluation as gospel. Different people can watch the same thing, and come up with different opinions. I base most of my opinions on my own personal experience and a CONSENSUS of other sources.

It's also not fair to base an opinion on Upshaw on his career in Tampa. He developed into a decent player in Oakland. Certainly not a dominant one, but one good enough that the Raiders kept him on the active roster the entire season in 2002 to rehabilitate his knee injury and play in the playoffs.

I'm not sure that calling my evaluations of these players "glowing" is fair. Most of these guys are blue collar, lunchpail-type players. But Joe Gibbs and Richie Pettitbon fashioned an excellent defense with similar players in '91. I look at Regan Upshaw, and he reminds me of Fred Stokes. I look at Brandon Noble, and I'm reminded of Eric Williams. Talent-wise, Griffin is similar to Bobby Wilson, except Griffin stays healthy and plays. Phillip Daniels is a more versatile Tim Johnson. The major difference, talent-wise, in these two lines was, of course, Charles Mann. There is no Charles Mann on this team. But keep in mind that Mann was a player in decline. His final Pro Bowl season was preceded by a 5.5 sack season, and followed by 4.5, 1, 1 sack seasons before retiring in '94. He simply wasn't the dominating player he was in the '80s. In '91, he was a declining-but-formerly-excellent player surrounded by blue collar linemen and flanked by an outstanding linebacker (Wilber Marshall) in his prime.

Could we use a player of Mann's ability, even the Mann of '91? Of course. Could we use some younger talent at the position? Yes. I just don't believe the situation is as dire as some are making it out to be. I think the terms "marginal" and "sucky" that have been bandied about are not accurate. This line is average, at worst, but smart coaching and good teamwork can still put a good overall defense on the field.

[Old Glory]

Let me see. Upshaw was released from the Bucs because he couldn't stop the run but you think Williams knows more then Monte Kiffer (DC for the Bucs)???

Noble was a marginal player BEFORE the knee injury but you think he's going to play BETTER then he did BEFORE the knee injury?? Because that's basically what your saying.

Talk about having your burgundy & gold colored glasses on!

[panel]

Originally posted by Old Glory

Let me see. Upshaw was released from the Bucs because he couldn't stop the run but you think Williams knows more then Monte Kiffer (DC for the Bucs)???

Noble was a marginal player BEFORE the knee injury but you think he's going to play BETTER then he did BEFORE the knee injury?? Because that's basically what your saying.

Talk about having your burgundy & gold colored glasses on!

that is the truth, our line stinks, and could possibley be the worse in the leage, if no additions are made.

We need one starting DT and one starting DE.

[RW31]

Every team has a weakness. For the eagles its their secondary. For the cowboys, its their qaurterback. For the giants its their...everything.

For the redskins its their dl. You guys will be lucky to be lucky to be average at stopping the run, and likely be horrible at the pass. You better hope your offense is ass good as some here have hyped it to be because I would not like that defense to be on the field that much. I think you'll struggle on TOP teams(guess what Dallas is??? ) and do well on teams that are more passive.

[frankbones]

Originally posted by DCMONEY

Man you are hitting tha nail right on the head. It seems the Skins sometimes sign a player for big money and expect him to be something that he never was for his previous team. The only player we've ever signed and he went on to perform at a pro bowl level multiple yrs, even though he wasn't for his previous team was Ken Harvey. But I agree with you on your reply.

I think Lav. Coles was a pretty good pick up, I remember him in Hawaii last year and never with the Jets.

BTW, Harvey was a Pro Bowler with the Cards.

[Hurst]

Albeit, we have less talent on the line, I'd use the comparison of the Eagles' D-line from last year to our possible D-line of this year. Granted, we don't have Darwin Walker and Corey Simon, the Eagles fought through D-line injuries, the departure of Hugh Douglas and mediocre play from N.D. Kalu to produce pressure on the QB from a dauntless SCHEME of pressure and blitzing. Our D-linemen will be elevated by the schematics we create for them. I don't think it would have mattered if our D-line was better last year with the defensive schematics we set up for them. Our blitzes were so poorly timed and so obvious last year that there was no aid to the line, only more pressure on the secondary. Look for the D-line to overachieve (barring injury) due to the schematics.

Confusion and pressure rules on Defense in the NFL.

[frankbones]

Originally posted by Old Glory

Let me see. Upshaw was released from the Bucs because he couldn't stop the run but you think Williams knows more then Monte Kiffer (DC for the Bucs)???

Noble was a marginal player BEFORE the knee injury but you think he's going to play BETTER then he did BEFORE the knee injury?? Because that's basically what your saying.

Talk about having your burgundy & gold colored glasses on!

Monte Kiffer, eh? Try Monte Kiffen.

Also in 2003 Buffalo had the #2 ranked Defense, TB had the #5.

http://nfl.com/stats/teamsort/NFL/DEF-TOTAL/2003/regular?sort_col_1=4

Williams also had the #1 defense in Tennessee the year the Ravens won the Super Bowl(and supposedly the best defense ever, yet was not even #1 that year.).

Also, Upshaw was on the Raiders before the Skins, he was not released from TB, just not resigned. That would be like saying The Titans relesed Jevon Kearse.

You talk about having their B&G glasses on, well maybe you should take off your "talking out your a$$ panties" and realize this is a Washington Redskins message board.

[RW31]

Mike zimmer has the 1 defense, and he let Noble go, so does that inturn mean Noble's no good?(using your logic, of course)

*cant believe i said norv turner!!!

[SkinFaninOKC]

Originally posted by Destino

Our line will be better because of coaching. Talent is a little better but you never really know what will happen when the new coaches plan around these guys. They may have a amazing year that surprises everyone, or they may become the teams major weakness.

We will know later this year.

What he said!!!!:point2sky

The D-line is still a weakness.

[Old Glory]

Originally posted by frankbones

Monte Kiffer, eh? Try Monte Kiffen.

Also in 2003 Buffalo had the #2 ranked Defense, TB had the #5.

http://nfl.com/stats/teamsort/NFL/DEF-TOTAL/2003/regular?sort_col_1=4

Williams also had the #1 defense in Tennessee the year the Ravens won the Super Bowl(and supposedly the best defense ever, yet was not even #1 that year.).

Also, Upshaw was on the Raiders before the Skins, he was not released from TB, just not resigned. That would be like saying The Titans relesed Jevon Kearse.

You talk about having their B&G glasses on, well maybe you should take off your "talking out your a$$ panties" and realize this is a Washington Redskins message board.

As usual..a cornball who starts to get mad because the truth hurts.

Upshaw wasn't "resigned" because Kiffen said Upshaw was terrible against the run. Nuff said.

Williams had the # 1 defense in Tennessee because he had players. I don't see anywhere near the caliber of player on the skins d-line.

You need to stop using profanity in your post. It's an obvious sign of a person who can't intelligently win an arguement so you have no other choice but to use profanity. Pretty sad son.

And I'm sorry to tell you that Kiffen has much more clot to me on who's good and bad then Williams. All those great Buc defenses carry enough weight with me.

[lavar is coming]

I think that if we have a healthy d- line then we will have an average line in the middle of the nfl

maybe like 20-25 ranked, not that bad not that good

[Octane67]

There will be some key FA's available june 1 st, which we still may look at.... also remeber D-Line isn't one of the more healthiest of positions so injuries may effect other teams as well as ours....

But as I see it now our D-line is one of the lowest in the NFL.

[bird_1972]

Originally posted by Old Glory

As usual..a cornball who starts to get mad because the truth hurts.

Upshaw wasn't "resigned" because Kiffen said Upshaw was terrible against the run. Nuff said.

Williams had the # 1 defense in Tennessee because he had players. I don't see anywhere near the caliber of player on the skins d-line.

You need to stop using profanity in your post. It's an obvious sign of a person who can't intelligently win an arguement so you have no other choice but to use profanity. Pretty sad son.

And I'm sorry to tell you that Kiffen has much more clot to me on who's good and bad then Williams. All those great Buc defenses carry enough weight with me.

Does this mean you think we should've drafted Udeze instead of Taylor?

[twist]

Originally posted by Hurst

Albeit, we have less talent on the line, I'd use the comparison of the Eagles' D-line from last year to our possible D-line of this year. Granted, we don't have Darwin Walker and Corey Simon, the Eagles fought through D-line injuries, the departure of Hugh Douglas and mediocre play from N.D. Kalu to produce pressure on the QB from a dauntless SCHEME of pressure and blitzing. Our D-linemen will be elevated by the schematics we create for them. I don't think it would have mattered if our D-line was better last year with the defensive schematics we set up for them. Our blitzes were so poorly timed and so obvious last year that there was no aid to the line, only more pressure on the secondary. Look for the D-line to overachieve (barring injury) due to the schematics.

Confusion and pressure rules on Defense in the NFL.

What your basicly saying is that the redskins line compares with an eagles line that played very poorly against the run and generated little pass rush, minus Simon and Walker. Im going to have to agree with you on that. The redskins line is likely to generate little pass rush and do poorly against the run this year. Even Jim Johnson can't make a good defence with poor line play. There is a possibility of respectable shakey play though. Well guess what Williams can't really either, if you want a solid defence you need good line play period, same with offence, there is no substitue.

Your line does however compare with a line that, has Brandon Whiteing on one side and ND Kalu on the other, with two bodies inbetween. Check the Eagles sack and interception stats from last year, it shows they were basicly winning with their offence and goalline stands. Don't confuse the way the Eagles defended in general last year with they way they pressured ramsey, that was the excpetion not the rule. Mediocrity at best should be what is expected.

[DCMONEY]

Originally posted by frankbones

I think Lav. Coles was a pretty good pick up, I remember him in Hawaii last year and never with the Jets.

BTW, Harvey was a Pro Bowler with the Cards.

I stand corrected but I don't think Harvey ever made the pro bowl until he got to the Skins. He made it 4 times with us.

[DCMONEY]

Griffin has to be a force this yr. based off the huge contract the Skins paid. People on this thread say he's decent well if thats the case, management has screwed up again because you can't give a player a contract like that to be average. He has to perform now. Anything less would be uncivilized. (Yeah I stole that last line from the right guard commercial)

[mardi gras skin]

I expect us to give up far fewer running yards than we have in the past because of our offense. The longer we hold on to the ball and the more points we score, the less likely opponents are to grind it out.

It looks like we really only have one soft spot. We can cover that.

[Prosperity]

Well, if you remember last season, A LOT of why the team's defense was failing was due directly to the constant three and outs unders Spurrier's offense.

[ghetto-smoove]

Originally posted by Old Glory

Let me see....we allowed Troy Hambrick to run for 189 yards on us.

We allowed Travis Henry to run for 160 yards on us with a broken foot!!

Yes our D-line is that bad. Pass rush wise, we were aguably the worse in the league and the idea that we are going to get a pass rush from our LB"S is....well, let's put it this way: What SB winning teams have you seen that the pass rush comes basically from the LB's?? Exactly.

A major reason for that is because of the sorry ass defensive coordinator we had last yr

[Old Glory]

To compare our D-line this year to the Eagles D-line last year is a mistake. Why? Because the Eagles D-line sucked because of injury.

Our D-line sucks just because it sucks naturally.

Corey Simon saw numerous double teams because players around him went down. Corey Simon is a stud. What stud do we have on our D-line?? NONE!!

[twist]

Originally posted by Old Glory

To compare our D-line this year to the Eagles D-line last year is a mistake. Why? Because the Eagles D-line sucked because of injury.

Our D-line sucks just because it sucks naturally.

Corey Simon saw numerous double teams because players around him went down. Corey Simon is a stud. What stud do we have on our D-line?? NONE!!

I believe the comparison was to the Eagles defencive line last year without the talent of Simon or Walker in the middle, which would likely mean much less talent, I just didn't think the poster I was quoteing realised exactly what they were saying and pointed it out. The Eagles were MUCH less effective without the players to fulfill their schemes.